Value of: Carolina Defensemen

[Carolinas Identity*]

It's a joke though that a Canes fan thinks Pesce will get a return of Eberle

hall returned larsson if were you not aware

 

[NotOpie]

This is going to be an interesting thread to revisit at the end of the season.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

My favorite post in this topic was the one treating "hits" as a stat worth noting. I'm not sure they could have picked a more subjective stat if they tried.

 

[KlefDown]

hall returned larsson if were you not aware

and Weber returned Subban. those trades did not bring market value for 2 teams and the other 2 teams got a great deal
Sekera for Faulk?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

and Weber returned Subban. those trades did not bring market value for 2 teams and the other 2 teams got a great deal
Sekera for Faulk?

Bad example to try and make your point. Hall/Larsson addressed team needs for both teams (and frankly, I don't think the value is as bad as some do). Subban and the Habs had other extenuating issues which drove that deal. So "value" wasn't the only thing at play in those deals. Your example of Sekera/Faulk has neither (team needs nor extenuating circumstances) so really is pretty irrelevant.

The overall point I think you are making is good though. Oilers were deep at forward and desperately needed a top pairing D, so that's why Hall was traded for Larsson, even if the value seemed off. Now though, they aren't desperate at D, and aren't as deep at F so they have no incentive to make a deal that isn't good value. Bringing up Hall for Larsson as a comparison is pretty irrelevant since the situations are different.

 

[KlefDown]

Bad example to try and make your point. Hall/Larsson addressed team needs for both teams (and frankly, I don't think the value is as bad as some do). Subban and the Habs had other extenuating issues which drove that deal. So "value" wasn't the only thing at play in those deals. Your example of Sekera/Faulk has neither (team needs nor extenuating circumstances) so really is pretty irrelevant.

The overall point I think you are making is good though. Oilers were deep at forward and desperately needed a top pairing D, so that's why Hall was traded for Larsson, even if the value seemed off. Now though, they aren't desperate at D, and aren't as deep at F so they have no incentive to make a deal that isn't good value. Bringing up Hall for Larsson as a comparison is pretty irrelevant since the situations are different.

well said.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

. Bringing up Hall for Larsson as a comparison is pretty irrelevant since the situations are different.

You're correct , as per usge, but if a team offered a skilled top line right winger for Slavin or Hanifin(left d) I would consider it.

It's also a shame that the Peg traded down to take that 6'7 guy in the draft. I wanted Carolina to take him with our 20-ish pick.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You're correct , as per usge, but if a team offered a skilled top line right winger for Slavin or Hanifin(left d) I would consider it.

Correct. If he was similar age/contract, we'd be foolish not to consider it because we are kind of in the opposite situation EDM was (although some of our D are less proven). We are deep at LHD with Hanfin, Slavin, Fleury, Bean, Hainsey, Carrick and weak at F.

I think, like EDM though, the Canes will wait until those guys are more of a sure thing before moving them. Hall, Eberle, Draisaitl, RNH, Yakupov, and McDavid were all more known quantities and IIRC, they already knew Lucic was coming there so they could afford to make that move. In a year or two, the Canes should be in a similar boat in terms of knowing what they have with their D.

 

[tony d]

Fleury might garner some interest. Maybe a 2nd round pick.

 

[RodTheBawd]

You'll have to forgive us a bit if we get a bit over-excited about our D prospects though.

It's not being over-excited. Carolina has one of the best young D corps in the NHL. Any team would be ecstatic to have this group, despite a bunch of folks crawling out of the woodworks to try to trash it over one silly comment.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Fleury might garner some interest. Maybe a 2nd round pick.

I don't see the Canes having any interest in that. I'm sure they are fine letting him continue to develop and improve his value (and/or making someone else expendable) vs. just dumping him for a 2nd round pick. Contrary to popular HF belief, the Canes seem to be pretty happy with how he's developed so far and with Hanifin and Slavin they can let him develop until he's ready.

 

[Gospel of Prospal]

Pesce to the Rangers would be nice

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Pesce to the Rangers would be nice

Please do NOT get Bern started!

 

[Homesick]

My favorite post in this topic was the one treating "hits" as a stat worth noting. I'm not sure they could have picked a more subjective stat if they tried.

You missed the part where it was a response to Pesce being a physical defenseman or that the "hits" was explained as well. I guess comprehension isn't your favourite subject

 

[Chan790]

Fleury might garner some interest. Maybe a 2nd round pick.

The kid was a 7OA pick just a few years ago and despite fans around the league being down on him for doing exactly what the Canes asked him to do in his D+1 season (concentrating solely on improving his defensive game, even if his offensive production receded substantially), the Canes are not.

He has developed how they looked to him to develop and they seem very pleased with him. The (probably only) reason the Canes would consider moving him is because they expect he'd return an exceptional forward prospect...if they're not being offered that, I don't think they'd listen.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

You missed the part where it was a response to Pesce being a physical defenseman or that the "hits" was explained as well. I guess comprehension isn't your favourite subject

No, you think you explained "hits". What you actually did was explain the exact reason why "hits" is as subjective of a stat as one could pick. The NHL doesn't regulate hits. Each individual arena's scorekeeper does. And they have been shown to be subject toward bias.

In fact, before the NHL changed their website, you could sort hits by team by home and away games. Teams like the Rangers, Toronto, and Pittsburgh had SUCH a stark difference between their home and away hit totals, it couldn't be explained away by the team playing better had home.

In addition, the scorekeeper is subject to bias by the player's reputation. It might take Lucic a simple nudge to be credited with a hit, while it would take someone like...Kessell, for example...a full "Kronwall" to get the same hit credit.

But really, all you need to show how ridiculous the league's hit stat is is to simply look at "the most physical" teams of the past decade. Would you expect Nashville to be 25th? Carolina to be higher than Boston? Toronto as #2?

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

No, you think you explained "hits". What you actually did was explain the exact reason why "hits" is as subjective of a stat as one could pick. The NHL doesn't regulate hits. Each individual arena's scorekeeper does. And they have been shown to be subject toward bias.

In fact, before the NHL changed their website, you could sort hits by team by home and away games. Teams like the Rangers, Toronto, and Pittsburgh had SUCH a stark difference between their home and away hit totals, it couldn't be explained away by the team playing better had home.

In addition, the scorekeeper is subject to bias by the player's reputation. It might take Lucic a simple nudge to be credited with a hit, while it would take someone like...Kessell, for example...a full "Kronwall" to get the same hit credit.

But really, all you need to show how ridiculous the league's hit stat is is to simply look at "the most physical" teams of the past decade. Would you expect Nashville to be 25th? Carolina to be higher than Boston? Toronto as #2?

that seems completely legit tbh imo

 

[bernmeister]

Pesce to the Rangers would be nice

Please do NOT get Bern started!

too busy til late w/e guys.

 

[Black and Gold 11]

How good is Pesce? I would be okay with swapping Spooner with him, unless Canes fans don't consider him a top six forward

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

And your answer is Ward and Lack. Maybe watch a Canes game sometime.

The defense was not to blame. They actually did quite well keeping shots down. The goalies just couldn't save the shots that got through.

And yet Cam Ward was 16th in GAA among starters. Try again, unless Eddie Lack and his 30 GP are to blame for Carolina's entire 82 game period of sucktitude in their end.

 

[crowi]

And yet Cam Ward was 16th in GAA among starters. Try again, unless Eddie Lack and his 30 GP are to blame for Carolina's entire 82 game period of sucktitude in their end.

Common statwatcher guy. Not even rare or epic quality.

 

[Measles]

Oilers lack top 6 NHL wingers. Lucic, Eberle, Pouliot, and Yakupov is all they have. Versteeg is a 3rd liner, and Puljujarvi isn't a lock to make the team. Plus the Oilers don't need another bottom pairing defenseman

How many top-6 wingers do you think the average NHL team has on their roster?

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

And yet Cam Ward was 16th in GAA among starters. Try again, unless Eddie Lack and his 30 GP are to blame for Carolina's entire 82 game period of sucktitude in their end.

we were the 2nd best team in the league that did not maek teh ploffs

but yes

we are insanely jelly of edmontons decade of dominance

those ping pong balls do not lie tbh

while the hurricanes are looking forward to challenging for a playoff spot this season

i am sure the oilers are looking forward to challenging for timothy liljegren

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

Pesce is two years younger than Larsson. Two years ago Larsson was demoted to the AHL. I highly doubt Pesce becomes as good as Larsson, but Pesce is the one with the better 21 year old season.

Wonderful. As said, if he repeats it, you can start talking 30-goal wingers. Until then it's a moot point.

Why would the Canes give up a 6'3", 200 lbs, 21 year old defenseman who just had an incredible developmental Rookie season as a first year pro for "fair value"?

There's a mile of difference between Yakupov, fair value and Eberle. Asking more than Yak? Sure. Asking Eberle or even Eberle+? That's not asking high- that's living outside of reality, to the point where you should change in that Canes jersey for a straitjacket.

Canes fans are high on their young defense because they are the only ones who actually watch Canes games.

Right- those Canes fans who watch Canes fans are the only true experts. Why do I get the feeling there might be some, I dunno, bias there? Just a bit of it?

I find it a lot harder to believe that "Yakupov for Pesce" or "2nd Round pick for recent #7 OA selection Haydn Fleury" is true "fair value".

Again, bias, etc.

we were the 2nd best team in the league that did not maek teh ploffs

but yes

we are insanely jelly of edmontons decade of dominance

those ping pong balls do not lie tbh

A tremendous contribution. Can't debate the merits of the stats, so insults the other side instead. You lose.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Wonderful. As said, if he repeats it, you can start talking 30-goal wingers. Until then it's a moot point.



There's a mile of difference between Yakupov, fair value and Eberle. Asking more than Yak? Sure. Asking Eberle or even Eberle+? That's not asking high- that's living outside of reality, to the point where you should change in that Canes jersey for a straitjacket.



Right- those Canes fans who watch Canes fans are the only true experts. Why do I get the feeling there might be some, I dunno, bias there? Just a bit of it?



Again, bias, etc.



A tremendous contribution. Can't debate the merits of the stats, so insults the other side instead. You lose.

stats??

you mean like how we won more games than you last year

had 16 more points

allowed ~20 less goals

and by in large were a far superior team?

also

how about this for a stat?

but i digress

i am sure you will do fine this year