Value of: Carolina Defensemen

[GoldiFox]

Wonderful. As said, if he repeats it, you can start talking 30-goal wingers. Until then it's a moot point.



There's a mile of difference between Yakupov, fair value and Eberle. Asking more than Yak? Sure. Asking Eberle or even Eberle+? That's not asking high- that's living outside of reality, to the point where you should change in that Canes jersey for a straitjacket.



Right- those Canes fans who watch Canes fans are the only true experts. Why do I get the feeling there might be some, I dunno, bias there? Just a bit of it?



Again, bias, etc.



A tremendous contribution. Can't debate the merits of the stats, so insults the other side instead. You lose.

There may be a mile of difference, but there is no middle-ground in terms of a return from Edmonton. Which is pretty important in discussing a trade between two specific teams.

Bias works both ways, like calling a guy a "30 goal winger" when he has hit 30 goals in only 1 of 6 NHL seasons. Trying to argue that a recent #7 overall pick you have seen play less than 5 games, if at all, is now only worth a 2nd round pick is just silliness.

 

[go comets]

Carolina at this time , has no reason to trade any of their young defensman. This team is just trying to make the playoffs, it's not like they are cup material. Just let this young group play and grow together for 2-3 seasons. Once the playoffs are the norm, then they can tinker with the extra players...

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

There may be a mile of difference, but there is no middle-ground in terms of a return from Edmonton. Which is pretty important in discussing a trade between two specific teams.

Bias works both ways, like calling a guy a "30 goal winger" when he has hit 30 goals in only 1 of 6 NHL seasons. Trying to argue that a recent #7 overall pick you have seen play less than 5 games, if at all, is now only worth a 2nd round pick is just silliness.

jussi jokinen

goat 30 goal winger

 

[crowi]

jussi jokinen

goat 30 goal winger

he is worth many things.

 

[ManofSteel55]

hall returned larsson if were you not aware

Dougie Hamilton returned draft picks if you were not aware.

 

[crowi]

Dougie Hamilton returned draft picks if you were not aware.

And???

 

[ManofSteel55]

The kid was a 7OA pick just a few years ago and despite fans around the league being down on him for doing exactly what the Canes asked him to do in his D+1 season (concentrating solely on improving his defensive game, even if his offensive production receded substantially), the Canes are not.

He has developed how they looked to him to develop and they seem very pleased with him. The (probably only) reason the Canes would consider moving him is because they expect he'd return an exceptional forward prospect...if they're not being offered that, I don't think they'd listen.

His defensive game improved, but not by as much as you guys think. I wish it had, I'm a Rebels fan and season ticket holder. I was disappointed with Fleury's development this year. I don't think he becomes what you guys had hoped he would when you drafted him. I hope he proves me wrong though, I like seeing Rebels players do well. Hope Ward has a bounce back season too.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Dougie Hamilton returned draft picks if you were not aware.

And???

Exactly. Just as irrelevant as bringing up Hall/Larsson in relation to Slavin/Pesce/Eberle/any players not named Hall and Larsson.

Any 1 trade doesn't dictate the market value for different players of the same position.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

stats??

you mean like how we won more games than you last year

had 16 more points

allowed ~20 less goals

and by in large were a far superior team?

How is any of that relevant to Carolina's defense being porous and comprised of young, inexperienced players who don't hold nearly the value their fans claim they do? You keep having to attack the Oilers. That, again, means you've lost, and you kniw it,

also

how about this for a stat?

but i digress

i am sure you will do fine this year

This discussion really got you salty, didn't it? Why does acknowledging your D is bad burn so much?

The undersidehurt is strong with this one.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

There may be a mile of difference, but there is no middle-ground in terms of a return from Edmonton. Which is pretty important in discussing a trade between two specific teams.

We've no idea, do we? It went from Yakupov to "Pesce would cost Eberle at a minimum and I doubt the Canes even move him for that given their lack of RHD depth" without any discussion around the middle ground.

Bias works both ways, like calling a guy a "30 goal winger" when he has hit 30 goals in only 1 of 6 NHL seasons.

Calling Eberle a four-time 20-goal scorer or three-time 60+ point scorer does you no favors.

Trying to argue that a recent #7 overall pick you have seen play less than 5 games, if at all, is now only worth a 2nd round pick is just silliness.

And stating that a recent #1 overall pick who you have likely seen play less than 5 games is worth less than a player with one partial NHL season is also silliness. It runs both ways.

 

[crowi]

Any 1 trade doesn't dictate the market value for different players of the same position.

Canucks overpaid to get Gudbranson. He plays D. Columbus traded Johansen for Jones. And so on. Which 1 trade?

 

[scan15*]

His defensive game improved, but not by as much as you guys think. I wish it had, I'm a Rebels fan and season ticket holder. I was disappointed with Fleury's development this year. I don't think he becomes what you guys had hoped he would when you drafted him. I hope he proves me wrong though, I like seeing Rebels players do well. Hope Ward has a bounce back season too.

What's Fleury's issue? Is he a low hockey IQ guy? I only got to watch him during the Memorial Cup and he just wasn't impressive. But that was a small sample size.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Any 1 trade doesn't dictate the market value for different players of the same position.

serious question:

if tomorrow morning you woke up and saw eberle had been traded for pesce, you you actually be upset?

and i mean *actually*, not mildly annoyed and not saying "wtf??!!" out loud irl, but actually upset?

or would you actually take the time to stop and think: :"hey! this stings atm, but in a year or two when we are actually ready to compete, this might potentially be a good thing!"

How is any of that relevant to Carolina's defense being porous and comprised of young, inexperienced players who don't hold nearly the value their fans claim they do? You keep having to attack the Oilers. That, again, means you've lost, and you kniw it,



This discussion really got you salty, didn't it? Why does acknowledging your D is bad burn so much?

The undersidehurt is strong with this one.

yes

i am soooo very salty, that you haven't realized that i have been ****ing with you since noon or whenever it was

i can not be bothered to check when it started

the actually most ironic part tho

is that i am right

#Win//Win baby

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

There's a mile of difference between Yakupov, fair value and Eberle. Asking more than Yak? Sure. Asking Eberle or even Eberle+? That's not asking high- that's living outside of reality, to the point where you should change in that Canes jersey for a straitjacket.

Eberle is the guy that makes the most sense from the canes perspective. Others are flat out better, worse, or have potential to be better. Eberle is good, but he is a known quantity at this point.

Not saying Edmonton would do it, but if Carolina were to ask for a guy off of Edmonton, Eberle is the most sensonle option.

And yet Cam Ward was 16th in GAA among starters. Try again, unless Eddie Lack and his 30 GP are to blame for Carolina's entire 82 game period of sucktitude in their end.

The -28 goal is mainly due to being 29th out of 30th in scoring. Ward and Lack didn't help.

On a separate point, are you aware of how dumb it is it use goal differential to try and argue team defensive ability?

 

[SaskCanesFan]

And yet Cam Ward was 16th in GAA among starters. Try again, unless Eddie Lack and his 30 GP are to blame for Carolina's entire 82 game period of sucktitude in their end.

Wait, you just used GAA, a primarily team based stat, while ignoring SV% to show that the Canes goalies are just fine and the D is "porous." Really? The reason Cam's GAA managed to be only average is because the young defence was one of the best in the league at suppressing shots.

The negative goal differential had a lot more to do with nearly league worst offence and goalies SV% which hovered just above 900. I mean, Ward and Lack were 42nd and 57th in the league among goalies with at least 20 games played.

 

[SameeTheSniper]

Oilers lack top 6 NHL wingers. Lucic, Eberle, Pouliot, and Yakupov is all they have. Versteeg is a 3rd liner, and Puljujarvi isn't a lock to make the team. Plus the Oilers don't need another bottom pairing defenseman

What? Lmfao... Pouliot, Lucic and Eberle are easily top 6 wingers... arguably Maroon aswell. Versteeg is a very solid 2nd/3rd line winger aswell, he was on of the top players in shot assists last season...

 

[SameeTheSniper]

I do think Haydne Fleury will top out to be a solid #2 TWD... he has alot a value, and would fit really nicely with Hanifin in the future (My bad if they are the same handiness lmfao)

 

[Roboturner913]

Hooo boy, came into this way late. But if I can throw in my 2 cents, short and sweet

Hanifin - nope, you can't have him. Peace out bro

Slavin - now, you really can't have him. Don't bother asking please.

Pesce - You could possibly have him, but he's a big, fairly physical, well-rounded puck moving top 4 d-man. And he's a right-handed shot to boot. You won't like the ask, at all.

Fleury - Possible for a forward prospect of roughly equal stature. I thought the aforementioned Fleury/Kapanen trade made a lot of sense, although I admit I like Kapanen more than some people.

Murphy - for a decent bottom 6er or youngish reclamation project forward, he's all yours

McKeown - Moving RHD prospects before you know what you really have in them doesn't seem smart. He probably holds more real-world value than whatever he is likely to get in return.

Bean - This one is kind of interesting, in that Bean's skillset is unique, yet the left side is chock full. I think it comes down to he and Fleury eventually, one gets kept, one gets moved

Carrick - I have a hard time getting a feel for him, other than he's relatively NHL-ready with a pretty decent floor. Kind of the same boat as McKeown where the return isn't worth the risk of losing what could be be in 2-3 years time.

 

[TheGreat]

stats??

you mean like how we won more games than you last year

had 16 more points

allowed ~20 less goals

and by in large were a far superior team?

also

how about this for a stat?

but i digress

i am sure you will do fine this year

Ouch thats gotta sting

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

But if the Canes really have so many elite/top pairing guys, I question why they had a -28 goal differential and missed the playoffs for the seventh consecutive year. A mystery, that.

And yet Cam Ward was 16th in GAA among starters.

How is any of that relevant to Carolina's defense being porous and comprised of young, inexperienced players who don't hold nearly the value their fans claim they do?

A surefire method of assessing value of defensemen if I've ever seen one. 19-22 year old rookie defensemen must not hold much value because the TEAM was had a -28 goal differential, missed the playoffs and their starting goalie was 16th in GAA.

Most of us (me included) can't watch a bunch of every team and have statwatch to some extent, but of all the stats to pick to make a point about defensemen, the ones you are choosing to try to make your point are about as irrelevant as they come. Cliff notes: The problem with Carolina wasn't "porous defense". The problem was bad forwards (27th in the NHL in goal scoring) and for the first 2.5 months bad goaltending (season SV% 29th in the NHL) and bad PP (24th in the NHL).

Secondly, we're not saying these guys are "elite top pairing guys" today, but a young player's value isn't based on what he is today. It's based on what he is today, what his development curve looks like, what his potential is, his age, salary, etc.. In many Canes fans opinion, both Slavin and Hanifin have the potential to be top pairing D and Pesce has the potential to be a reliable, 2nd pairing defensive minded D. Will they achieve that? Maybe, maybe not, but given how well they performed when thrown to the wolves (Pesce/Slavin) in their rookie seasons, there's no desire to move them unless it was a deal that knocked our socks off.

It doesn't mean they are Gods or the 2nd coming or anything like that. It doesn't mean they had perfect rookie seasons or that they didn't make their share of mistakes. It just means that the Canes aren't motivated to move those guys right now and when you consider the whole package, we like what we see so far.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

bba and i do not agree on our own board often, let alone a neutral one

but i got his back 1,000% on this one

 

[ManofSteel55]

What's Fleury's issue? Is he a low hockey IQ guy? I only got to watch him during the Memorial Cup and he just wasn't impressive. But that was a small sample size.

He seems too passive to me. Too tentative to do anything. Maybe he overthinks everything, its hard to tell. He does have great tools, an amazing skater, but he just isn't a quick decision maker, even at the junior level. It can be improved over time, but reflects that he is likely a bit further away from the NHL than his draft position suggests he should be.

 

[ManofSteel55]

serious question:

if tomorrow morning you woke up and saw eberle had been traded for pesce, you you actually be upset?

and i mean *actually*, not mildly annoyed and not saying "wtf??!!" out loud irl, but actually upset?

or would you actually take the time to stop and think: :"hey! this stings atm, but in a year or two when we are actually ready to compete, this might potentially be a good thing!"

I wasn't upset when we traded Hall for Larsson, although I was confused and questioned the intelligence of Chiarelli, so I think I can safely say that the only two types of trades that could upset me are 1) McDavid for nothing, or 2) Nugent-Hopkins for Dumba or worse.

I would probably do the same with an Eberle - Pesce trade as with Hall - Larsson. Mostly because in this case the trade doesn't help us get better, we would be trading our #1 RW, who we have no replacement for yet, for a down the road maybe #2/3 defenseman, which we have a ton of already. I'd rather have Mark Fayne on our 2nd pair than Yakupov or a rookie Pulujarvi forced into a top line winger role.

 

[Seachd]

#Win//Win baby

Because you posted that meaningless picture, of which Oiler fans could put up five if they wanted, you automatically lose.

And by the way, of course most Oiler fans would dislike the trade if it happened, for reasons that go well beyond the difference I. Value between the two.

 

[Roboturner913]

Because you posted that meaningless picture, of which Oiler fans could put up five if they wanted

I'm easily one of the oldest posters on this board and I'm barely old enough to remember those championships