Player Discussion Carey Price - Spring Savings Edition

[Ezpz]

Come back please. Allen sucks and can't handle the starters role as every other year of his career.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Well, all this time off from a concussion is te correct way to go about that for sure, but hopefully that same time off was able to heal that other leg injury as well

I get everyones just DONE with Carey but I'd still like to see what a rested and hopefully decently healthy Price can do in the playoffs where he likes to turn it up a notch usually

If he shits the bed there however, we'll know it's time.

And see... this is the thing, any time he slumps or whatever, he's declared dead. It's pretty crazy the kind of pressure we put on the guy.

If he gets crushed by Toronto (which is very likely to happen) that means he's done? I mean... I have no doubt that's what the story will be.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I waited until I get through my spreadsheets for work... which unfortunately, I'll have to get back to in about fifteen minutes.

Man's gotta eat.

lol

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Over his last 19 games after the team's hot start, Allen has a .902 save %.

Over the same period in 18 starts, Price has also put up a .902 save %.

Both goalies have been impacted by our awful defence.

Allen has been sub .900 pretty much the whole time since taking over.

And I completely agree with you that he's been hung out to dry way too much. I think he's been solid. Although in the past couple of games he's starting to let in some softies. But that's expected with the additional volume.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Correct.

And I'm not going to have the cycles to be posting much on here in the next few months. I'm not wasting my time with that guy.

I can’t be bothered to waste my time with him/her anymore. They just simply don’t get it or have no intention of getting it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The main point is if you go after max deals and you don't perform to the cap hit, you deserve everything that comes afterwards.

Sure. But if you sign a contract, you don't expect the team to be dismantled and sit there with 10 mil in open cap space. I mean how the hell is that the goalie's fault?

I look at the overall picture. Allen is superior to PRice this season.

Aside from all of the nonsense you've posted that I'm not going to bother refuting here, I think this point should be addressed again. It's pretty clear that Allen was the better goalie this year, certainly to start anyway. And Price was bad to start the year. No excuses there.

But it's a period of like 15 games... that's a hot or cold start in a normal year. It's not indicative of Allen being a better goalie. I mean it's totally stupid to look at things that way. And this is being borne out now as Allen has been struggling in the starter's role recently.

So sure... Allen had the better start. He's nowhere close to the goalie that Price is and never will be. And I like the guy. I think he's mostly done an admirable job. And he was steady when we needed him to be. That's what good backups do. But don't confuse a backup with a starter. Notice that Price started turning things around before getting hurt. His numbers were improving. And as the year has progressed and the workload increased Allen's have fallen.

If Price does come back and struggles, then at least we have a guy who can steady the ship for us. Hopefully the concussion isn't an issue but I'd rather they bench him altogether if he's not right.

This isn't an argument about who is the better goalie - neither of the Habs goalies is an elite NHL goalie, they are both about the same - this year Allen has put up slightly above league average numbers and Price has put up slightly below league average - about what both have done over the last 3 or 4 years. It doesn't really matter which one is in net, they both give us about the same chance to win.. price has had streaks of better play, but has also had as many of terrible play. Allain has been consistent, his numbers have dropped off, but he hasn't had a patch of terrible play - his number are still higher than league average in most categories. The Habs are better off than most teams at goal when he starts, but he's numbers are not much better than Price's, it's a wash. That being said, not many teams can carry that much salary at that position and be successful - exception being Vagas apparently.

Price has put up below league average number now in 3 of the last 4 years, over almost 200 games... this streak is now longer than his best patch which was just under 200 games over 4 years - remember in his first 300 games Price was decidedly average, he had lost his starting job twice over those first 300 games, but had received some Vezina votes, finishing 5th once in those first 6 years.

Who knows if he can turn it around, he'll be 34 next year, typically when goalies fall off the cliff, that being said, we are entering the glory days of the older goaltender - there are 13 goalies 34 or older in the league this year and 8 of them have played 20 games or more (about 100 goalies see ice time each year)... contrast this with just a few years ago, only 6 goalies older than 34 saw any ice time and 3 of them played a combined 6 games. In 15/16 only Miller (35), Anderson (34) and Luongo (36) played substantial minutes over the age of 33. The year before that Miller and Luongo were the only two over 33 that play over 20 games.

So can Price turn it around and buck the odds, few older goalies excel in this league - it's worth noting that of the 13 goalies older than 34 playing this year, only two have a SV% at or above league average and 7 have a SV% below .900. The issue with Price is that we have to hope he can turn it around and hope his age 34, 35 and 36 are better than his last few years.

The concussion could be a factor as well. They are unpredictable injuries and he's had a few. So he absolutely could be compromised going forward. That is a major concern.

Well I mean from a fans perspective I think most of us would agree that MB has managed to lower expectations to a degree, but not for most posters passionate enough about this team to visit these boards on a daily basis. We all want a winner, or at least a direction of either A. Win or B. Rebuild, we’ve got neither from MB and I agree that we wasted Carey’s best years by employing this GM that has provided very little direction or any semblance of a plan, but I don’t see how that changes the reality of Price’s play currently.

He needs to be better, he signed the contract knowing that the team was meh and the direction was unclear, so I can’t give him a pass. Can you at least agree that over the last 3-4 years that his play has been wildly inconsistent? Small stretches of former Price, but longer stretches of poor play?

A lot of that falls on the gm, I agree with that, but Price should be accountable for his own play whether he’s had to carry us in previous years or not. He’s not the only problem cap wise, but I don’t see how we turn this ship around with 10.5 million going to him, 8 to man mountain, 3.5 to Byron, 3.5 to chiarot etc etc. He’s the 10.5 million dollar elephant in the room that no one seems to have the courage to deal with. I don’t think he’s movable, but maybe his reputation is still amongst the best in the league and he can lead another team to a cup, but for us, I think he’s just in the way. If he gets hot he’s too good to rebuild with and if he stinks the joint out then it’s the worst contract in the league and hard to build the rest of the roster around that.

I will argue all day long that Price has been far better than he's been given credit for over the past two years. Going forward though, that contract will get worse with age.

Again, totally stupid to have signed him and then squandered the prime out of him with bad teams. That made absolutely no sense.

I can’t be bothered to waste my time with him/her anymore. They just simply don’t get it or have no intention of getting it.

There are folks who don't think Price is a good goalie or is over the hill. No problem. His numbers on the surface certainly aren't what they were. Reasonable people can disagree.

And then there are others who simply hate the guy. It's not unique to Price. It's on every board. With all star players.... I still remember the folks who hated Subban. It doesn't make sense to me but whatever.

 

[Redux91]

And see... this is the thing, any time he slumps or whatever, he's declared dead. It's pretty crazy the kind of pressure we put on the guy.

If he gets crushed by Toronto (which is very likely to happen) that means he's done? I mean... I have no doubt that's what the story will be.

Yes but thing ALSO is ... he wasnt 33 and riddled with past and present injuries all those other times... i like that you still defend Carey to the death I do, pre-31 I was the same, defending him like crazy, hes deserved people to back him up for all hes went through with us
But how long are we supposed to wait for that 21 year old kid to take us to the promise land?
At some point, just like Weber, you're just..passed the prime.. on the way down, it's just the law of the land, time catches up with everyone
Just BECAUSE he has 5 more years on his deal doesnt mean he was ALWAYS going to be a goalie god until 38..
It was always going to be a stretch goalies remain great into their mid 30s..
Real poor overall contract Bergevin ended up giving him in hindsight, hes practically unmovable which I guess was the goal, but they certainly didnt count on Carey showing signs of the end at 33, maybe 35-36, but you just never know with goalies

Without the plethora of injuries I'm SURE he would of lasted longer, that's a given.. but unfortunately now.. it looks like he wont ever be that guy from 2014-2015 ever again
Hope I'm wrong but I've watched hockey long enough to know and see when people are "done".. and I gotta say, with him, it doesnt look like a "slump" anymore
But I thank him for the great times, he was a HELL of a goalie, it was fun, hell its BEEN 14 years!

 

[canucklover123]

Honestly, we need Price for the sole fact right now he is probably our best breakout passer on D lol

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes but thing ALSO is ... he wasnt 33 and riddled with past and present injuries all those other times... i like that you still defend Carey to the death I do, pre-31 I was the same, defending him like crazy, hes deserved people to back him up for all hes went through with us
But how long are we supposed to wait for that 21 year old kid to take us to the promise land?
At some point, just like Weber, you're just..passed the prime.. on the way down, it's just the law of the land, time catches up with everyone
Just BECAUSE he has 5 more years on his deal doesnt mean he was ALWAYS going to be a goalie god until 38..
It was always going to be a stretch goalies remain great into their mid 30s..
Real poor overall contract Bergevin ended up giving him in hindsight, hes practically unmovable which I guess was the goal, but they certainly didnt count on Carey showing signs of the end at 33, maybe 35-36, but you just never know with goalies

Without the plethora of injuries I'm SURE he would of lasted longer, that's a given.. but unfortunately now.. it looks like he wont ever be that guy from 2014-2015 ever again
Hope I'm wrong but I've watched hockey long enough to know and see when people are "done".. and I gotta say, with him, it doesnt look like a "slump" anymore
But I thank him for the great times, he was a HELL of a goalie, it was fun, hell its BEEN 14 years!

I hate to break it to you, but he's never going to take us to the promised land. No goalie could with the teams we've had. And I don't see it changing until we at least have a decent blueline.

Even if Price is lights out... we'll still lose. Maybe win a round but that's it.

 

[Redux91]

I hate to break it to you, but he's never going to take us to the promised land. No goalie could with the teams we've had. And I don't see it changing until we at least have a decent blueline.

Even if Price is lights out... we'll still lose. Maybe win a round but that's it.

Break it.. TO ME?? lol..
I'm more glad you've come to make peace with that more than anything lol

As it stands tho, Careys very salary inhibits us from creating a better blue line as well.. it's ironic really.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Break it.. TO ME?? lol..
I'm more glad you've come to make peace with that more than anything lol

As it stands tho, Careys very salary inhibits us from creating a better blue line as well.. it's ironic really.

We had ten mil in cap space for years... incompetent mgmt is why we don't have a decent blueline. I won't even get into the Subban trade or Sergachev...

And now I gotta go back and do some more work. Sadly, I won't be able to waste time as usual here for the next few months. Crazy times coming up now.

 

[aresknights]

If I took that max deal and it was bloated, I would be held accountable to performing to it. Reality. I work in construction. I disagree about your narrative where it's not Price's fault at all.

If you take max deals, pressure to perform to it is part of that deal

So ya would give the cash back? Your Hired at $40 or whatever per hour guaranteed for 1 year by an employer to do your job. And a client isn't happy with your performance you'd give your employer some cash back and offer to work the rest of your contract at 27.50 per hour so employer can pay another construction worker with less pedigree n experience than you to do the work LOL. Maybe you would but I'd be shocked.

Held accountable? Meaning what? Your employer should be able renege on what they agreed to pay you? Or ask you to resign for less mid contract even though you are doing your job?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Playoff time, we have to start with Prive if he’s ready. He does still pull off that miraculous play over short spans every now and again, but my leash would be short. If you can’t sort yourself out after a couple of games then Allen takes over.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I've posted it before but I believe it's the percentage of HD chances we allow. Decent at limiting shots but it's a higher percentage of it being good scoring chances. Also factor in the sheer volume of work he's had.

As for 20/21... it's not in dispute.


Sure. If you like .894 since being given the starter's role.


And in this post we see how none of your propaganda holds water. On the one hand you say that we can compare backups to starters and there's no difference. We pointed out that it makes zero sense to do this because the numbers will be way out of whack. Moreover, backups are sheltered against harder teams. It tells you nothing about how they'll do when working as starters.

Allen for example was .920 before being the starter. He's been .894 since. This is not "cherrypicking" it's demonstrative that your entire premise is completely wrong.

You've been shot down so many times on this and yet you keep trotting it out.

No this is cherry picking at its finest. Also 25 games is not enough to draw a lot of conclusions from. Price’s mediocre/below average play isn’t limited to these 25 games, he’s been on a 3-4 year sample where his numbers stink.

 

[BLONG7]

Allen has been sub .900 pretty much the whole time since taking over.

And I completely agree with you that he's been hung out to dry way too much. I think he's been solid. Although in the past couple of games he's starting to let in some softies. But that's expected with the additional volume.

Allen was 897 % the past 13 before last night......some real tough games, and a few good ones. Welcome to CP31's world. The D gives up too many chances...Price was 915% in his last 13 before the injury.
If Price comes back and is lights out we will be respectable in the playoffs, if he struggles we are done and hopefully so is our GM.
Laying it all at the feet of our goalies has not worked for years now.

 

[BLONG7]

We had ten mil in cap space for years... incompetent mgmt is why we don't have a decent blueline. I won't even get into the Subban trade or Sergachev...

And now I gotta go back and do some more work. Sadly, I won't be able to waste time as usual here for the next few months. Crazy times coming up now.

Rinse and repeat.
WHEN will this organization come to their senses? Fire this GM and get one who does not need training wheels for 9 years.
Price's contract has never impeded what we have tried to do......not even this year, that's 4M not spent because of Pickle Jar Alzner....seriously, the cap has been so badly mishandled it's shown it ugly face in the Price thread???
WTF, this is a BERGEVIN issue, year over year....FFS

 

[sandviper]

At this point, both Price and Allen have played 25 games. Statistically, it’s close for save percentage and GAA, so no, I wouldn’t say Allen has been a lot better at all. I’ll concede Allen hasn’t had a lot of run support and has had a lower RBS rating though Price’s QS rating is higher. Basically, Price has been more inconsistent, even within the same game. While Allen has been more consistent, he hasn’t necessarily been better.

Contracts are a different conversation and I’d be among those who aren’t thrilled with it, but just in terms of whose been better, well, neither have really outdone the other, but I wouldn’t say Allen has outplayed Price either.

 

[salbutera]

Allen’s performance falls off a cliff when used more than 35% of games.....hmm who would’ve ever guessed that?

 

[sandviper]

Allen’s performance falls off a cliff when used more than 35% of games.....hmm who would’ve ever guessed that?

Waite, which was why he was fired.

 

[Habs Halifax]

So ya would give the cash back? Your Hired at $40 or whatever per hour guaranteed for 1 year by an employer to do your job. And a client isn't happy with your performance you'd give your employer some cash back and offer to work the rest of your contract at 27.50 per hour so employer can pay another construction worker with less pedigree n experience than you to do the work LOL. Maybe you would but I'd be shocked.

Held accountable? Meaning what? Your employer should be able renege on what they agreed to pay you? Or ask you to resign for less mid contract even though you are doing your job?

LMAO. If you take a bloated salary in the construction world and you can't produce, you get laid off. It's not guaranteed contracts for the most part. They won't give you the chance to give money back bud. They cut ties and move on

Sorry, You not looking at it from both sides. Only Price's side. Max deals are risky and it's selfish when there is a salary cap. You won't move me off of this stance. I'm a Price fan cause I do think he is still a great goalie but he's grossly underperformed to his cap hit. It's a problem

$8.5M vs $10.5M. He took $2M extra per year and put himself in a situation where the expectation is at the highest level you can imagine. It was a bar that was pretty much unreachable for a 30+ goalie. $68M vs $84M. $16M is a lot of money but so is $68M

 

[Habs Halifax]

At this point, both Price and Allen have played 25 games. Statistically, it’s close for save percentage and GAA, so no, I wouldn’t say Allen has been a lot better at all. I’ll concede Allen hasn’t had a lot of run support and has had a lower RBS rating though Price’s QS rating is higher. Basically, Price has been more inconsistent, even within the same game. While Allen has been more consistent, he hasn’t necessarily been better.

Contracts are a different conversation and I’d be among those who aren’t thrilled with it, but just in terms of whose been better, well, neither have really outdone the other, but I wouldn’t say Allen has outplayed Price either.

I agree the results are close to the same between Allen and Price but one is expected to be much better due to the % of cap he takes. Here is a good question, how long does it take for the next goalie to get a $10M+ contract? 10+ years?

The Price/Habs divorce is coming and it might be best for both sides IMO. I don't hate Price but he's not been there for us consistently. It's the consistent part that bothers me the most

 

[nhlfan9191]

LMAO. If you take a bloated salary in the construction world and you can't produce, you get laid off. It's not guaranteed contracts for the most part. They won't give you the chance to give money back bud. They cut ties and move on

Sorry, You not looking at it from both sides. Only Price's side. Max deals are risky and it's selfish when there is a salary cap. You won't move me off of this stance. I'm a Price fan cause I do think he is still a great goalie but he's grossly underperformed to his cap hit. It's a problem

$8.5M vs $10.5M. He took $2M extra per year and put himself in a situation where the expectation is at the highest level you can imagine. It was a bar that was pretty much unreachable for a 30+ goalie. $68M vs $84M. $16M is a lot of money but so is $68M

It’s not selfish of the players. This is a business. They aren’t throwing away potential earnings to watch a general manager piss it away on something else. You sometimes see players take paycuts to play on contenders or because of the hometown aspect, etc. We aren’t either of those for Price. If we didn’t give him the money, some other sucker would’ve. That’s how the market works. Bergevin was terrified of losing him, and he’s paying for it now.

 

[Habs Halifax]

It’s not selfish of the players. This is a business. They aren’t throwing away potential earnings to watch a general manager piss it away on something else. You sometimes see players take paycuts to play on contenders or because of the hometown aspect, etc. We aren’t either of those for Price. If we didn’t give him the money, some other sucker would’ve. That’s how the market works. Bergevin was terrified of losing him, and he’s paying for it now.

It is selfish to take max deals in a salary cap world. Your trying to move it to Bergevin evaluation now. Even if it was not Bergevin, Price would have went after a max deal. I don't like it and Price was not the only one. In a way, the covid flat cap is a good thing for NHL teams managing rising salaries

Allen and Price have similar stats. I would have expected Price to have better stats and heading into this season, I said several times.... We need to be a top 10-15 team in offense and top 5-10 in Defense. Of course our team D is not where it needs to be but I see problems when a guy like Allen can come in and produce like Price. Price and Weber have let us down this season cause if they were close to performing to their cap hits, we would be a top 5 defensive team and that's really where we can cause trouble for other teams.

 

[Deluded Puck]

As it stands, I think this organisation truly wasted Carey Price’s prime years.

The failure to build a great team around him, especially from 2013-19 was bordering on criminal.

 

[aresknights]

LMAO. If you take a bloated salary in the construction world and you can't produce, you get laid off. It's not guaranteed contracts for the most part. They won't give you the chance to give money back bud. They cut ties and move on

Sorry, You not looking at it from both sides. Only Price's side. Max deals are risky and it's selfish when there is a salary cap. You won't move me off of this stance. I'm a Price fan cause I do think he is still a great goalie but he's grossly underperformed to his cap hit. It's a problem

$8.5M vs $10.5M. He took $2M extra per year and put himself in a situation where the expectation is at the highest level you can imagine. It was a bar that was pretty much unreachable for a 30+ goalie. $68M vs $84M. $16M is a lot of money but so is $68M

OK bud lol. You give the offer back and ask for less. Got it.