Player Discussion Carey Price - Spring Savings Edition

[Lafleurs Guy]

None of the goalies played less than 10 games in a season.
Those are the rankings for Price in the past 4 years for Goals Saved Above Expected in the last 4 seasons (minimum 10 games played)

2020-2021: 24
2019-2020: 37
2018-2019: 22
2017-2018: 63 (The season you said he was great and no other goalie would have done better)

Okay, I'll reply.

1. I didn't say he was good in 2018. I said he was bad in 2018. I said that D crushed him and then he got hurt. It was a nightmare year. That was the year Weber got hurt, we signed freaking Alzner and put in guys like Schlemko. I also pointed out that Niemi did okay in a backup role with people saying he should be the starter next year and of course he got absolutely demolished in the following seasons.

2. I said his numbers were sub .900 the following year until Weber came back from injury and he went .920+ the rest of the way. That was a great season by any measurement. It reinforced what I had argued that without some defensive support, his numbers would drop. I said it back then and that's EXACTLY what happened. Weber came back and his numbers jumped.

3. I said that our club is the 2nd worst team in the league at allowing high danger shots for the past two seasons (not including this one) and he's done very well behind bad teams in that time. I said that last year we played the ever living shit out of Price down the stretch just as we did before because we were desperate for a playoff spot and our backups couldn't be counted on for wins behind that D.

4. I argued that his GSAA last year showed that he was a lot better than his raw save percentage suggests. Esp considering the volume of shots that he faces. And I posted an article in support of this which you ignored. That article argues that he was a top ten goalie last year. Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter... what does matter is that his .909 should be put in context and I don't see how anyone can argue that it's a bad year considering what he was playing behind. .909 is pedestrian, not terrible. But he's playing a ton of hockey behind bad defensive teams.

5. I argued that comparing backup goalies to starters was a ridiculous exercise because backups don't have the volume of shots that starters do. And backups are sheltered from harder teams. Since that time I've been proven correct again on this. Allen's save percentage before becoming the starter was .921. Since becoming the starter it's .896. Almost a 30 point drop. And I think Allen has played well btw. I think he's been left out to dry way too much and to make matters worse, this team hasn't been able to score. But... this is nothing new. It's been this way for years.

As for this season, he was bad to start for sure. And Allen was better in my opinion to start. But that's not a big deal considering how short a period of time it was, esp when he rebounded with a good stretch afterwards.

The fact of the matter is this: Whether it's Price, Allen or Niemi... we have given our goalies little support. We put them in a position to fail. It's a stupid way to run your team. And Price's cap hit has zero to do with this. We went two years with almost ten mil in open cap space. It's unbelievably stupid way to run the team. At least we have Caufield now... maybe we can actually start winning some games again.

If I get any more "harderer shot" crap replies, I'm done with you. If you want to chat on this, I'll talk with you all day long. But don't waste my time with that shit.

 

[Clumsyhab]

Okay, I'll reply.

1. I didn't say he was good in 2018. I said he was bad in 2018. I said that D crushed him and then he got hurt. It was a nightmare year. That was the year Weber got hurt, we signed freaking Alzner and put in guys like Schlemko. I also pointed out that Niemi did okay in a backup role with people saying he should be the starter next year and of course he got absolutely demolished in the following seasons.

2. I said his numbers were sub .900 the following year until Weber came back from injury and he went .920+ the rest of the way. That was a great season by any measurement. It reinforced what I had argued that without some defensive support, his numbers would drop. I said it back then and that's EXACTLY what happened. Weber came back and his numbers jumped.

3. I said that our club is the 2nd worst team in the league at allowing high danger shots for the past two seasons (not including this one) and he's done very well behind bad teams in that time. I said that last year we played the ever living shit out of Price down the stretch just as we did before because we were desperate for a playoff spot and our backups couldn't be counted on for wins behind that D.

4. I argued that his GSAA last year showed that he was a lot better than his raw save percentage suggests. Esp considering the volume of shots that he faces. And I posted an article in support of this which you ignored. That article argues that he was a top ten goalie last year. Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter... what does matter is that his .909 should be put in context and I don't see how anyone can argue that it's a bad year considering what he was playing behind. .909 is pedestrian, not terrible. But he's playing a ton of hockey behind bad defensive teams.

5. I argued that comparing backup goalies to starters was a ridiculous exercise because backups don't have the volume of shots that starters do. And backups are sheltered from harder teams. Since that time I've been proven correct again on this. Allen's save percentage before becoming the starter was .921. Since becoming the starter it's .896. Almost a 30 point drop. And I think Allen has played well btw. I think he's been left out to dry way too much and to make matters worse, this team hasn't been able to score. But... this is nothing new. It's been this way for years.

As for this season, he was bad to start for sure. And Allen was better in my opinion to start. But that's not a big deal considering how short a period of time it was, esp when he rebounded with a good stretch afterwards.

The fact of the matter is this: Whether it's Price, Allen or Niemi... we have given our goalies little support. We put them in a position to fail. It's a stupid way to run your team. And Price's cap hit has zero to do with this. We went two years with almost ten mil in open cap space. It's unbelievably stupid way to run the team. At least we have Caufield now... maybe we can actually start winning some games again.

If I get any more "harderer shot" crap replies, I'm done with you. If you want to chat on this, I'll talk with you all day long. But don't waste my time with that shit.

So what’s your definition of Price is still an elite goalie? Does that mean best in the league? Top 3? Top 5?

Anyways I guess we’ll never come to an agreement. I’m not even talking about numbers. He just disappointed me so much in the past few years, giving up too many back-breaking softies at key moments.

I hope he proves me wrong, comes back and get back steal games from time to time like he did early in his career, but with his age/injuries, I highly doubt so.
By the way, I never said “he suckz”. I just don’t consider him elite anymore and see him as a top 15-20 at this point of his career.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So what’s your definition of Price is still an elite goalie? Does that mean best in the league? Top 3? Top 5?

Before we put him behind that awful D he was the undisputed best netminder in the world. No question about it.

Then we put him behind shit and his numbers dropped.

Best in the world now? I don't know. There's little doubt in my mind that he'd be .920 behind even an average D though. .909 behind the club we had last year is damn good as far as I'm concerned.

What pisses me off is how we've run the team. Sign the guy to a huge contract and then put him behind a terrible D. I mean... why? Either you sign him and build it up or you trade him. Instead, we sign him.... and let the team go to pot. Plus, he's good enough to keep us a bubble team. We don't draft high and we aren't good enough to win anything. Not only that, but we ruin his trade value along the way.

That is f***ing stupid.

Anyways, now we have to worry about the concussion issue. We wasted all of these years for no reason. Now we have to hope he's healthy. And if he's not, we're really f***ed.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Before we put him behind that awful D he was the undisputed best netminder in the world. No question about it.

Then we put him behind shit and his numbers dropped.

Best in the world now? I don't know. There's little doubt in my mind that he'd be .920 behind even an average D though. .909 behind the club we had last year is damn good as far as I'm concerned.

What pisses me off is how we've run the team. Sign the guy to a huge contract and then put him behind a terrible D. I mean... why? Either you sign him and build it up or you trade him. Instead, we sign him.... and let the team go to pot. Plus, he's good enough to keep us a bubble team. We don't draft high and we aren't good enough to win anything. Not only that, but we ruin his trade value along the way.

That is f***ing stupid.

Anyways, now we have to worry about the concussion issue. We wasted all of these years for no reason. Now we have to hope he's healthy. And if he's not, we're really f***ed.

If he needs an elite D to put up elite numbers, he wasn’t worth elite money.

I’ve defended MB a lot, but that Price contract was a disaster the moment it was signed.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If he needs an elite D to put up elite numbers, he wasn’t worth elite money.

I’ve defended MB a lot, but that Price contract was a disaster the moment it was signed.

There’s a huge chasm between terrible and elite.

We didn’t need to go get Scott Niedermayer.

There’s no reason we couldn’t have gotten an average D. That would’ve been more than fine. Average D and he’d have been putting up .920 without a doubt. Instead we had a rotating cast of waiver wire guys on the left side.

With the cap space we had, we could’ve gotten two good blueliners or one great one. Instead we got: Mete, Benn, Alzner, Schlemko...

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

There’s a huge chasm between terrible and elite.

We didn’t need to go get Scott Niedermayer.

There’s no reason we couldn’t have gotten an average D. That would’ve been more than fine. Average D and he’d have been putting up .920 without a doubt. Instead we had a rotating cast of waiver wire guys on the left side.

With the cap space we had, we could’ve gotten two good blueliners or one great one. Instead we got: Mete, Benn, Alzner, Schlemko...

Our D is pretty average I’d say. Folks tend to compare it to what an ideal situation would be, but most teams are piecing their D together as well. Just look at the past trade deadline, we saw guys like Jordie Benn and Mike Reilly get traded to contenders... guys we know are spare part type players. Pretty much every D has a few of those guys.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

He isn’t bottom tier at all. He’s also far away from his prime. This team has sucked the life away from him four years straight. He sold out so I get why no human should feel sorry from that aspect. He’s essentially paid to be this teams scapegoat whenever the team results predictably suck.

He’s bottom tier now by almost any measure. Why that is, the team in front of him, the slow d, doesn’t really matter. If he’s need a top notch d in front of him then we shouldn’t be paying him 10.5. The money could be spent in numerous places.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Our D is pretty average I’d say. Folks tend to compare it to what an ideal situation would be, but most teams are piecing their D together as well. Just look at the past trade deadline, we saw guys like Jordie Benn and Mike Reilly get traded to contenders... guys we know are spare part type players. Pretty much every D has a few of those guys.

Our D has been the 2nd worst in the league at allowing high danger chances for at least the past two seasons.

We’re okay at limiting total shots but terrible at allowing great scoring chances. That absolutely kills a goalie’s save percentage.

Save percentage doesn’t take shot quality into account.

He’s bottom tier now by almost any measure. Why that is, the team in front of him, the slow d, doesn’t really matter. If he’s need a top notch d in front of him then we shouldn’t be paying him 10.5. The money could be spent in numerous places.

He doesn’t need a top notch D. He’s putting up decent numbers behind a terrible group.

All we needed was a competent guy on the left side and couldn’t even do that.

 

[Pickles]

If he needs an elite D to put up elite numbers, he wasn’t worth elite money.

I’ve defended MB a lot, but that Price contract was a disaster the moment it was signed.

I don't think anyone is saying he needs an elite D to put up elite numbers he said an average D would do. Beregevin decimated the defense corp losing Markov, Subban, Emelin and Sergachev in a matter of a few years. I don't think any goalie deserves 10 mil a season but lets get real here, the defensive group in front of him is crap, that's not helping his numbers any.

 

[BLONG7]

He isn’t bottom tier at all. He’s also far away from his prime. This team has sucked the life away from him four years straight. He sold out so I get why no human should feel sorry from that aspect. He’s essentially paid to be this teams scapegoat whenever the team results predictably suck.

He got offered an insane amount of money, and gets crapped on for it.......weird.
He covered over so many issues, for so long....he was the guy who got MB and MT their extensions they did not deserve.
Anyhow, the guy needs to find his way back, and get his game back hopefully before the playoffs.
As for the haters, well they come out when it suits them we all get it......but getting a massive contract thrown at him, was not on him, but the clown who offered it, and all the while did not surround him with a better team.
Laying it all on the feet of our goalies is wrong, and always will be, holding the goalie to one standard, while everyone else is held to a lower standard has been a bizarre way to go, and I have always said, it was strange for the fans and the media to let Bergevin get away with this.

 

[azcanuck]

If he needs an elite D to put up elite numbers, he wasn’t worth elite money.

I’ve defended MB a lot, but that Price contract was a disaster the moment it was signed.

He's not elite. To say he's elite now is being delusional beyond belief. He's barely average. An average goalie being paid 10 million dollars a year and clearly breaking down.
And in the past three seasons I've posted stats over and over that he does very poorly in shots from high danger areas. 54th of 77 goalies. That's piss poor.
He had his run where he was elite and it was unfair the organization ruined his best years with a mediocre product. But now the team is on the rise and he's on a steep decline. It's difficult when fans see their heroes decline. They hang on to a narrative that no longer exists.

He got offered an insane amount of money, and gets crapped on for it.......weird.
He covered over so many issues, for so long....he was the guy who got MB and MT their extensions they did not deserve.
Anyhow, the guy needs to find his way back, and get his game back hopefully before the playoffs.
As for the haters, well they come out when it suits them we all get it......but getting a massive contract thrown at him, was not on him, but the clown who offered it, and all the while did not surround him with a better team.
Laying it all on the feet of our goalies is wrong, and always will be, holding the goalie to one standard, while everyone else is held to a lower standard has been a bizarre way to go, and I have always said, it was strange for the fans and the media to let Bergevin get away with this.

I'm not sure anyone is actually blaming Price, I mean who in the hell wouldnt take the money? But now that massive anchor is hanging over the franchise. And with an athlete like him in steep decline it's going to be very tough unless he has some sort of injury settlement.
And praise and blame are two things that go hand in hand. Price has learned long ago to drown out the noise. He's a class athlete who was perfectly build mentally to play in Montreal.

 

[BlueBrunswick]

Our D has been the 2nd worst in the league at allowing high danger chances for at least the past two seasons.

We’re okay at limiting total shots but terrible at allowing great scoring chances. That absolutely kills a goalie’s save percentage.

Save percentage doesn’t take shot quality into account.

He doesn’t need a top notch D. He’s putting up decent numbers behind a terrible group.

All we needed was a competent guy on the left side and couldn’t even do that.

What measure are you using to come to the conclusion our Habs D hav been terrible... The Habs D has been average, some times below average, but it has never been anywhere near the bottom

Hockey Reference
High Danger Chances Against
20/21 - Habs 132 - NHL average - 153
19/20 - Habs 434 - NHL average - 443
18/19 - Habs 332 - NHL average - 350
17/18 - Habs 344 - NHL average - 338

Natural Stat Trick
20/21
High Danger Chances Against - 9th fewest
High Danger Goals Against - 8th fewest
HDSV% - 18th best

19/20
High Dangers Chances Against - 8th fewest
High Danger Goals Against - 10th fewest
HDSV% 16 best

 

[nhlfan9191]

I don't think anyone is saying he needs an elite D to put up elite numbers he said an average D would do. Beregevin decimated the defense corp losing Markov, Subban, Emelin and Sergachev in a matter of a few years. I don't think any goalie deserves 10 mil a season but lets get real here, the defensive group in front of him is crap, that's not helping his numbers any.

Chariot and Edmunston are bottom pairing guys who are mainstays on both the top and second pair. Weber’s declined. He’s also no longer a top pairing defenseman. The bottom pair is junk outside of Romanov whose been dealing with a lot of growing pains. Large group of the forwards outside of Danault (not much this year) also have no idea what they’re doing in their own end.

It’s a complete mess top to bottom. And sadly, this group is still better then what we’ve seen since Bergevin imploded in 2017 outside of maybe the 18/19 season where we had a Shea Weber who was still capable of carrying the D despite having Mete/Kulak playing the majority of the time in the top 4. The real problem isn’t in net. As far as Price being worth the contract, even Price’s biggest supporters knows its bad so it’s a completely different conversation.

 

[Clumsyhab]

What measure are you using to come to the conclusion our Habs D hav been terrible... The Habs D has been average, some times below average, but it has never been anywhere near the bottom

Hockey Reference
High Danger Chances Against
20/21 - Habs 132 - NHL average - 153
19/20 - Habs 434 - NHL average - 443
18/19 - Habs 332 - NHL average - 350
17/18 - Habs 344 - NHL average - 338

Natural Stat Trick
20/21
High Danger Chances Against - 9th fewest
High Danger Goals Against - 8th fewest
HDSV% - 18th best

19/20
High Dangers Chances Against - 8th fewest
High Danger Goals Against - 10th fewest
HDSV% 16 best

That's what I thought too. He keeps saying we are among the worst defense in the past few seasons in the league but never came up with numbers/facts.

When I came up with stats/advanced stats, he's saying that they are not accurate and have to be put into context, but advanced stats actually put numbers into context.

I guess Price is the best goalie in the world for intangibles, because he's doing poorly in everything that is tangible..

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Our D has been the 2nd worst in the league at allowing high danger chances for at least the past two seasons.

We’re okay at limiting total shots but terrible at allowing great scoring chances. That absolutely kills a goalie’s save percentage.

Save percentage doesn’t take shot quality into account.

He doesn’t need a top notch D. He’s putting up decent numbers behind a terrible group.

All we needed was a competent guy on the left side and couldn’t even do that.

Jake Allen, who is a very middle of the road goalie seems to be doing okay.

 

[azcanuck]

That's what I thought too. He keeps saying we are among the worst defense in the past few seasons in the league but never came up with numbers/facts.

When I came up with stats/advanced stats, he's saying that they are not accurate and have to be put into context, but advanced stats actually put numbers into context.

I guess Price is the best goalie in the world for intangibles, because he's doing poorly in everything that is tangible..

53th among goalies for high danger shots. (out of 77). The guys just way past being elite.

This is what keeps getting repeated that the Montreal D allows too many high danger shots. False narrative.

 

[nhlfan9191]

53th among goalies for high danger shots. (out of 77). The guys just way past being elite.

This is what keeps getting repeated that the Montreal D allows too many high danger shots. False narrative.

Lol just stop with your hand picked stats. People have explained to you why you’re argument is trash but you continue to double down on it. Why don’t you list Allen’s stats since he became starter of this team. It’s almost like sample size and workload, the thing you don’t want to admit exists matters. You have no argument.

 

[azcanuck]

Lol just stop with your hand picked stats. People have explained to you why you’re argument is trash but you continue to double down on it. Why don’t you list Allen’s stats since he became starter of this team. It’s almost like sample size and workload, the thing you don’t want to admit exists matters. You have no argument.

"People" LOL. You mean you and Mr. Lafleur.

You dont like that stat. But only 77 goalies have played at least 1000 minutes of 5-5 hockey over a three year span. So it's a good body of work and it eliminates the one year wonder.

It captures the decline of Carey Price so well and demolishes every counter argument about his "weak defense".

I posted Allen's ENTIRE season stats. No cherry picking.

10 in the league in saves above percentage.

and a .910 SP.

Pretty darn solid.

 

[nhlfan9191]

"People" LOL. You mean you and Mr. Lafleur.

You dont like that stat. But only 77 goalies have played at least 1000 minutes of 5-5 hockey over a three year span. So it's a good body of work and it eliminates the one year wonder.

It captures the decline of Carey Price so well and demolishes every counter argument about his "weak defense".

I posted Allen's ENTIRE season stats. No cherry picking.

10 in the league in saves above percentage.

and a .910 SP.

Pretty darn solid.

Ive literally showed you why your logic is complete garbage over and over again. But you keep bringing up the same points. Use your guy Allen, the guy you continue to double down on, as the difference between comparing starters to backups, and why sample sizes matter, especially when it comes to work load. Why don’t you post Allen’s stats as a starter for us? You have no argument. The whole 1000 minutes is a cherry picked number by yourself.

 

[otto bond]

stats at time can GTFO.
Let's face it, he has been an average goalie for a few years now but the team in front has been horrible at best. Like some said, Schlemko was a appearing savior? Over used and left out to many time year after year and now I'm not sure if he's able to handle extra time because he's all banged up. From what Whaite said and seeing Montreal sign Allen, tells you something about his physical health.

 

[BLONG7]

"People" LOL. You mean you and Mr. Lafleur.

You dont like that stat. But only 77 goalies have played at least 1000 minutes of 5-5 hockey over a three year span. So it's a good body of work and it eliminates the one year wonder.

It captures the decline of Carey Price so well and demolishes every counter argument about his "weak defense".

I posted Allen's ENTIRE season stats. No cherry picking.

10 in the league in saves above percentage.

and a .910 SP.

Pretty darn solid.

Just curious if Allen's save % has slipped on an ongoing basis ALL season as he has played more? We all know the answer there, the poor guy is not ready for the first period almost every night recently....kudos to him for playing better in the 2nd and 3rd but he is struggling more recently......at least we have scored a little more for him.
Anyhow, we get it you are not a fan of Price....he was underpaid while he was all worldly and is overpaid now that he has come back to earth.....his cotract might remind us a certain captain of the Chicago Black Hawks....
Flame on!!
lol

Edit
Allen's save percentage in his last 13 games as a starter 897 since Price's injury
Price's last 13 games before injury 915

 

[BehindTheTimes]

He got offered an insane amount of money, and gets crapped on for it.......weird.
He covered over so many issues, for so long....he was the guy who got MB and MT their extensions they did not deserve.
Anyhow, the guy needs to find his way back, and get his game back hopefully before the playoffs.
As for the haters, well they come out when it suits them we all get it......but getting a massive contract thrown at him, was not on him, but the clown who offered it, and all the while did not surround him with a better team.
Laying it all on the feet of our goalies is wrong, and always will be, holding the goalie to one standard, while everyone else is held to a lower standard has been a bizarre way to go, and I have always said, it was strange for the fans and the media to let Bergevin get away with this.

I don’t think pointing out poor play from the highest paid goalie in the league makes anyone a hater. I’m critical of his play, but I would love nothing more than him to return to top form.

The playin games of the COVID invitational was such a small sample size relative to his last 3-4 years body of work. No one is forgetting his good play and how much he carried us in earlier years, but this is a results driven business and he’s not providing them any more. He’s a detriment to the team now based on his performance, his cap hit and the inability to move his cap hit.

 

[salbutera]

"People" LOL. You mean you and Mr. Lafleur.

You dont like that stat. But only 77 goalies have played at least 1000 minutes of 5-5 hockey over a three year span. So it's a good body of work and it eliminates the one year wonder.

It captures the decline of Carey Price so well and demolishes every counter argument about his "weak defense".

I posted Allen's ENTIRE season stats. No cherry picking.

10 in the league in saves above percentage.

and a .910 SP.

Pretty darn solid.

Yet you never seem to want to address Allen’s significant career performance drop off once he plays at a rate of 30GP+ ....

Hence Stephane Waite’s comment “we know Allen is not capable of being an everyday starter”

 

[salbutera]

.

 

[Redux91]

Well, all this time off from a concussion is the correct way to go about that for sure, but hopefully that same time off was able to heal that other leg injury as well

I get everyones just DONE with Carey but I'd still like to see what a rested and hopefully decently healthy Price can do in the playoffs where he likes to turn it up a notch usually

If he shits the bed there however, we'll know it's time.