Player Discussion Carey Price - Spring Savings Edition

[BLONG7]

I don’t think pointing out poor play from the highest paid goalie in the league makes anyone a hater. I’m critical of his play, but I would love nothing more than him to return to top form.

The playin games of the COVID invitational was such a small sample size relative to his last 3-4 years body of work. No one is forgetting his good play and how much he carried us in earlier years, but this is a results driven business and he’s not providing them any more. He’s a detriment to the team now based on his performance, his cap hit and the inability to move his cap hit.

Some valid points...the results orientated comment doesn't hold alot of water during the Bergevin years does it though? During those years, if the TEAM had played as well as Price we would have won alot more.....not too mention our GM has had ZERO success.
Agreed that we all want Price to return to form, from just last year in the playoffs.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

"People" LOL. You mean you and Mr. Lafleur.

You dont like that stat. But only 77 goalies have played at least 1000 minutes of 5-5 hockey over a three year span. So it's a good body of work and it eliminates the one year wonder.

It captures the decline of Carey Price so well and demolishes every counter argument about his "weak defense".

I posted Allen's ENTIRE season stats. No cherry picking.

10 in the league in saves above percentage.

and a .910 SP.

Pretty darn solid.

Over his last 19 games after the team's hot start, Allen has a .902 save %.

Over the same period in 18 starts, Price has also put up a .902 save %.

Both goalies have been impacted by our awful defence.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not sure where you work but if they offered you the $ would you take it?
Yes occasionally someone restructures a deal to help but there is often something in it for them also A quid pro quo you dont always hear about.
No one made Habs give him the $. Not his fault at all.
Is it a tough contract to work with for the Habs. Sure is but in no way do I blame Price. He has earned the $ over his career.

If I took that max deal and it was bloated, I would be held accountable to performing to it. Reality. I work in construction. I disagree about your narrative where it's not Price's fault at all.

If you take max deals, pressure to perform to it is part of that deal

 

[Habs Halifax]

His cap hit was right in line with Lundqvist's. At the time of his signing he was top ten in Vezina 6 out 7 years or something like that. He'd won everything in 2015. In 2016 it was looking even better when he got hurt. 2017 he comes in 3rd... He earned the dough and would've gotten it anywhere.

Then we decided that he was so good, he didn't need a blueline anymore. But think of all that open cap space that went into Molson's pockets. Definitely worth it.

The main point is if you go after max deals and you don't perform to the cap hit, you deserve everything that comes afterwards. It's selfish to go after max deals when you and your family would be fine with $65M vs $84M. What do you want more? Selfish bloated contract or a team that can compete in a salary cap league? Nobody will move me off this stance. I never like it when players go after max deals at the cost of the team ability to compete and pay other players within a salary cap.

I'm a Price fan and I have defended him here and there. I don't think his problems are age related, I think they are confidence issues and yes, our team D has been meh for a few seasons now. However, if anybody deserves some heat, it's Price. You want $10.5M AAV... Sure, but now you got to perform to that level

 

[azcanuck]

Over his last 19 games after the team's hot start, Allen has a .902 save %.

Over the same period in 18 starts, Price has also put up a .902 save %.

Both goalies have been impacted by our awful defence.

way to cherry pick to get Price and Allen on the same page

Ive literally showed you why your logic is complete garbage over and over again. But you keep bringing up the same points. Use your guy Allen, the guy you continue to double down on, as the difference between comparing starters to backups, and why sample sizes matter, especially when it comes to work load. Why don’t you post Allen’s stats as a starter for us? You have no argument. The whole 1000 minutes is a cherry picked number by yourself.

Your OPINION doesnt refute STATS.

1000 minutes is the MINIMUM requirement per season over THREE years. It left 77 goalies. It's the opposite of cherry picking.

You're like a major league batter striking out every game 4 times and thinking he's doing well.

Just curious if Allen's save % has slipped on an ongoing basis ALL season as he has played more? We all know the answer there, the poor guy is not ready for the first period almost every night recently....kudos to him for playing better in the 2nd and 3rd but he is struggling more recently......at least we have scored a little more for him.
Anyhow, we get it you are not a fan of Price....he was underpaid while he was all worldly and is overpaid now that he has come back to earth.....his cotract might remind us a certain captain of the Chicago Black Hawks....
Flame on!!
lol

Edit
Allen's save percentage in his last 13 games as a starter 897 since Price's injury
Price's last 13 games before injury 915

I'm not really a fan of anybody. I'm a fan of the team. I dont hate Price at all. He's been an elite goalie for years and a classy man. Now's he's on a severe decline and his contract is an anchor to the team.

I've been disappointed in Allen down the stretch but lately he's picking it up again and was terrific against the Leafs and starting to play better.

I look at the overall picture. Allen is superior to PRice this season.

 

[LeHab]

#	Name	GP	Min	GA	GAA	W	L	T	ENG	SO	Saves	SvPct
34	Jake Allen	25	1482	63	2.55	11	10	4	0	0	639	0.910
31	Carey Price	25	1479	65	2.64	12	7	5	0	1	594	0.901

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

25 games for each now. Allen has been slightly better than Price and a much better value when contract is taken into consideration.

Hope Price can step it up in playoffs.

 

[JianYang]

Well, all this time off from a concussion is the correct way to go about that for sure, but hopefully that same time off was able to heal that other leg injury as well

I get everyones just DONE with Carey but I'd still like to see what a rested and hopefully decently healthy Price can do in the playoffs where he likes to turn it up a notch usually

If he shits the bed there however, we'll know it's time.

The question for me is if he comes back, and doesn't look any better, do the habs dare to sit him, even if it is only for one playoff game?

Based in the way Dom coaches, I would say no.

 

[BlueBrunswick]

#	Name	GP	Min	GA	GAA	W	L	T	ENG	SO	Saves	SvPct
34	Jake Allen	25	1482	63	2.55	11	10	4	0	0	639	0.910
31	Carey Price	25	1479	65	2.64	12	7	5	0	1	594	0.901

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

25 games for each now. Allen has been slightly better than Price and a much better value when contract is taken into consideration.

Hope Price can step it up in playoffs.

This isn't an argument about who is the better goalie - neither of the Habs goalies is an elite NHL goalie, they are both about the same - this year Allen has put up slightly above league average numbers and Price has put up slightly below league average - about what both have done over the last 3 or 4 years. It doesn't really matter which one is in net, they both give us about the same chance to win.. price has had streaks of better play, but has also had as many of terrible play. Allain has been consistent, his numbers have dropped off, but he hasn't had a patch of terrible play - his number are still higher than league average in most categories. The Habs are better off than most teams at goal when he starts, but he's numbers are not much better than Price's, it's a wash. That being said, not many teams can carry that much salary at that position and be successful - exception being Vagas apparently.

Price has put up below league average number now in 3 of the last 4 years, over almost 200 games... this streak is now longer than his best patch which was just under 200 games over 4 years - remember in his first 300 games Price was decidedly average, he had lost his starting job twice over those first 300 games, but had received some Vezina votes, finishing 5th once in those first 6 years.

Who knows if he can turn it around, he'll be 34 next year, typically when goalies fall off the cliff, that being said, we are entering the glory days of the older goaltender - there are 13 goalies 34 or older in the league this year and 8 of them have played 20 games or more (about 100 goalies see ice time each year)... contrast this with just a few years ago, only 6 goalies older than 34 saw any ice time and 3 of them played a combined 6 games. In 15/16 only Miller (35), Anderson (34) and Luongo (36) played substantial minutes over the age of 33. The year before that Miller and Luongo were the only two over 33 that play over 20 games.

So can Price turn it around and buck the odds, few older goalies excel in this league - it's worth noting that of the 13 goalies older than 34 playing this year, only two have a SV% at or above league average and 7 have a SV% below .900. The issue with Price is that we have to hope he can turn it around and hope his age 34, 35 and 36 are better than his last few years.

 

[BLONG7]

This isn't an argument about who is the better goalie - neither of the Habs goalies is an elite NHL goalie, they are both about the same - this year Allen has put up slightly above league average numbers and Price has put up slightly below league average - about what both have done over the last 3 or 4 years. It doesn't really matter which one is in net, they both give us about the same chance to win.. price has had streaks of better play, but has also had as many of terrible play. Allain has been consistent, his numbers have dropped off, but he hasn't had a patch of terrible play - his number are still higher than league average in most categories. The Habs are better off than most teams at goal when he starts, but he's numbers are not much better than Price's, it's a wash. That being said, not many teams can carry that much salary at that position and be successful - exception being Vagas apparently.

Price has put up below league average number now in 3 of the last 4 years, over almost 200 games... this streak is now longer than his best patch which was just under 200 games over 4 years - remember in his first 300 games Price was decidedly average, he had lost his starting job twice over those first 300 games, but had received some Vezina votes, finishing 5th once in those first 6 years.

Who knows if he can turn it around, he'll be 34 next year, typically when goalies fall off the cliff, that being said, we are entering the glory days of the older goaltender - there are 13 goalies 34 or older in the league this year and 8 of them have played 20 games or more (about 100 goalies see ice time each year)... contrast this with just a few years ago, only 6 goalies older than 34 saw any ice time and 3 of them played a combined 6 games. In 15/16 only Miller (35), Anderson (34) and Luongo (36) played substantial minutes over the age of 33. The year before that Miller and Luongo were the only two over 33 that play over 20 games.

So can Price turn it around and buck the odds, few older goalies excel in this league - it's worth noting that of the 13 goalies older than 34 playing this year, only two have a SV% at or above league average and 7 have a SV% below .900. The issue with Price is that we have to hope he can turn it around and hope his age 34, 35 and 36 are better than his last few years.

Looking like injuries will send Price to LTIR at some point...the Man Mountain will have some company...

 

[LeHab]

This isn't an argument about who is the better goalie - neither of the Habs goalies is an elite NHL goalie, they are both about the same - this year Allen has put up slightly above league average numbers and Price has put up slightly below league average - about what both have done over the last 3 or 4 years. It doesn't really matter which one is in net, they both give us about the same chance to win.. price has had streaks of better play, but has also had as many of terrible play. Allain has been consistent, his numbers have dropped off, but he hasn't had a patch of terrible play - his number are still higher than league average in most categories. The Habs are better off than most teams at goal when he starts, but he's numbers are not much better than Price's, it's a wash. That being said, not many teams can carry that much salary at that position and be successful - exception being Vagas apparently.

Price has put up below league average number now in 3 of the last 4 years, over almost 200 games... this streak is now longer than his best patch which was just under 200 games over 4 years - remember in his first 300 games Price was decidedly average, he had lost his starting job twice over those first 300 games, but had received some Vezina votes, finishing 5th once in those first 6 years.

Who knows if he can turn it around, he'll be 34 next year, typically when goalies fall off the cliff, that being said, we are entering the glory days of the older goaltender - there are 13 goalies 34 or older in the league this year and 8 of them have played 20 games or more (about 100 goalies see ice time each year)... contrast this with just a few years ago, only 6 goalies older than 34 saw any ice time and 3 of them played a combined 6 games. In 15/16 only Miller (35), Anderson (34) and Luongo (36) played substantial minutes over the age of 33. The year before that Miller and Luongo were the only two over 33 that play over 20 games.

So can Price turn it around and buck the odds, few older goalies excel in this league - it's worth noting that of the 13 goalies older than 34 playing this year, only two have a SV% at or above league average and 7 have a SV% below .900. The issue with Price is that we have to hope he can turn it around and hope his age 34, 35 and 36 are better than his last few years.

Yeah I would consider both to be at about the same level based on this season. What is concerning with Price is that many expected he could elevate regular season play by playing less games thanks to a solid backup. This did no occur. How will age affect performance going forward?

Last playoffs he elevated for sure and same will be needed this time if team hopes to make any splash.

 

[BlueBrunswick]

Looking like injuries will send Price to LTIR at some point...the Man Mountain will have some company...

Age catches up to us all, no matter the talent level... 15 goalies over 33 played minutes last year, only Fleury and Quick played starting goalie minutes, Fleury 49 games and Quick 42. Of those 15 goalies only Halak (31 games), Crawford (40) and Greiss (31) had a SV% of .910 or better.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Your OPINION doesnt refute STATS.

1000 minutes is the MINIMUM requirement per season over THREE years. It left 77 goalies. It's the opposite of cherry picking.

You're like a major league batter striking out every game 4 times and thinking he's doing well.

Im not batting out at all. You don’t listen. The bolded is a cherry picked number created by yourself. I’ve written an essay at this point responding to you with why sample sizes and work loads are important. You don’t have to look any further then Jake Allen’s numbers since he took over as a starter if you want an example of why. I’m done responding to you. If you have a personal vendetta against Price, that’s your business. I’m not taking the bait anymore.

 

[Habs]

I lost confidence in Price years ago, it doesn't even bother me he's out right now. I just wonder what the next round of excuses will be from the media when he disappoints again. Can't be tired, can't be hurt.. he changed his pads 3 times this year, what else are we going to hear? I know it would be different if he had a high scoring team in front of him, if that's the case trade him this summer and get us something for him.

People that were freaking out over the Roy trade, they forget he would have been horrific here with the team in front of him. He thrived on a high powered AVS team, Price probably will as well.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Some valid points...the results orientated comment doesn't hold alot of water during the Bergevin years does it though? During those years, if the TEAM had played as well as Price we would have won alot more.....not too mention our GM has had ZERO success.
Agreed that we all want Price to return to form, from just last year in the playoffs.

Well I mean from a fans perspective I think most of us would agree that MB has managed to lower expectations to a degree, but not for most posters passionate enough about this team to visit these boards on a daily basis. We all want a winner, or at least a direction of either A. Win or B. Rebuild, we’ve got neither from MB and I agree that we wasted Carey’s best years by employing this GM that has provided very little direction or any semblance of a plan, but I don’t see how that changes the reality of Price’s play currently.

He needs to be better, he signed the contract knowing that the team was meh and the direction was unclear, so I can’t give him a pass. Can you at least agree that over the last 3-4 years that his play has been wildly inconsistent? Small stretches of former Price, but longer stretches of poor play?

A lot of that falls on the gm, I agree with that, but Price should be accountable for his own play whether he’s had to carry us in previous years or not. He’s not the only problem cap wise, but I don’t see how we turn this ship around with 10.5 million going to him, 8 to man mountain, 3.5 to Byron, 3.5 to chiarot etc etc. He’s the 10.5 million dollar elephant in the room that no one seems to have the courage to deal with. I don’t think he’s movable, but maybe his reputation is still amongst the best in the league and he can lead another team to a cup, but for us, I think he’s just in the way. If he gets hot he’s too good to rebuild with and if he stinks the joint out then it’s the worst contract in the league and hard to build the rest of the roster around that.

 

[Canadienna]

I wonder what it is about his concussion symptoms that makes him have to skate without his equipment?



There's another photo of him smiling talking to Byron, so at least we've got that going for us.

 

[Clumsyhab]

Im not batting out at all. You don’t listen. The bolded is a cherry picked number created by yourself. I’ve written an essay at this point responding to you with why sample sizes and work loads are important. You don’t have to look any further then Jake Allen’s numbers since he took over as a starter if you want an example of why. I’m done responding to you. If you have a personal vendetta against Price, that’s your business. I’m not taking the bait anymore.

If you don't like his "cherry picked" stats, you can look here:
NHL Goalie Statistics

Those stats are very accurate. Even those who are playing for bad teams/bad defense can have very good ratings and those playing for good teams/good defense can have mediocre ratings.
Price numbers are unfortunately not very good in pretty much every categories over the last few seasons.

I don't get why people who think Price has been average/mediocre recently are labelled as "Price haters". Most of us in this thread are debating whether or not he's still an elite goalie. Some fans think he's still among the best in the league and I don't agree with that, based on what I see and based on the numbers to back up my point.

To me, he's maybe top 15-top or top-20 in the league. However, I wish he can turn things around and can help us win more games like he did early in his career.

 

[BLONG7]

Well I mean from a fans perspective I think most of us would agree that MB has managed to lower expectations to a degree, but not for most posters passionate enough about this team to visit these boards on a daily basis. We all want a winner, or at least a direction of either A. Win or B. Rebuild, we’ve got neither from MB and I agree that we wasted Carey’s best years by employing this GM that has provided very little direction or any semblance of a plan, but I don’t see how that changes the reality of Price’s play currently.

He needs to be better, he signed the contract knowing that the team was meh and the direction was unclear, so I can’t give him a pass. Can you at least agree that over the last 3-4 years that his play has been wildly inconsistent? Small stretches of former Price, but longer stretches of poor play?

A lot of that falls on the gm, I agree with that, but Price should be accountable for his own play whether he’s had to carry us in previous years or not. He’s not the only problem cap wise, but I don’t see how we turn this ship around with 10.5 million going to him, 8 to man mountain, 3.5 to Byron, 3.5 to chiarot etc etc. He’s the 10.5 million dollar elephant in the room that no one seems to have the courage to deal with. I don’t think he’s movable, but maybe his reputation is still amongst the best in the league and he can lead another team to a cup, but for us, I think he’s just in the way. If he gets hot he’s too good to rebuild with and if he stinks the joint out then it’s the worst contract in the league and hard to build the rest of the roster around that.

Without a doubt, Price has been strangely inconsistent....no way around it..................the GM and his lack of rebuilding the D has had something to do with that...
We seem to have let his prime years slip away....all we have now is MB's favorite word here, HOPE that we see flashes of his old self.
The sooner we get rid of a GM who uses hope in a sentence far too often, the better we will be.

 

[Deebs]

 

[peate]

Without a doubt, Price has been strangely inconsistent....no way around it..................the GM and his lack of rebuilding the D has had something to do with that...
We seem to have let his prime years slip away....all we have now is MB's favorite word here, HOPE that we see flashes of his old self.
The sooner we get rid of a GM who uses hope in a sentence far too often, the better we will be.

Like the investment ad says: "Dude, hope is not a plan."

 

[BLONG7]

Like the investment ad says: "Dude, hope is not a plan."

Money Mol$on needs to start saying this asap...

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Without a doubt, Price has been strangely inconsistent....no way around it..................the GM and his lack of rebuilding the D has had something to do with that...
We seem to have let his prime years slip away....all we have now is MB's favorite word here, HOPE that we see flashes of his old self.
The sooner we get rid of a GM who uses hope in a sentence far too often, the better we will be.

Well we were a team in transition for 6 years, whatever that means. Then we went from a team that was transitioning to a team that was retooling. We lacked character and then we lacked leadership. The message has been one of downplaying expectations. The media has given MB a complete pass in my opinion. No tough questions, no accountability. Just excuse after excuse.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What measure are you using to come to the conclusion our Habs D hav been terrible... The Habs D has been average, some times below average, but it has never been anywhere near the bottom

Hockey Reference
High Danger Chances Against
20/21 - Habs 132 - NHL average - 153
19/20 - Habs 434 - NHL average - 443
18/19 - Habs 332 - NHL average - 350
17/18 - Habs 344 - NHL average - 338

Natural Stat Trick
20/21
High Danger Chances Against - 9th fewest
High Danger Goals Against - 8th fewest
HDSV% - 18th best

19/20
High Dangers Chances Against - 8th fewest
High Danger Goals Against - 10th fewest
HDSV% 16 best

I've posted it before but I believe it's the percentage of HD chances we allow. Decent at limiting shots but it's a higher percentage of it being good scoring chances. Also factor in the sheer volume of work he's had.

As for 20/21... it's not in dispute.

Jake Allen, who is a very middle of the road goalie seems to be doing okay.

Sure. If you like .894 since being given the starter's role.

"People" LOL. You mean you and Mr. Lafleur.

You dont like that stat. But only 77 goalies have played at least 1000 minutes of 5-5 hockey over a three year span. So it's a good body of work and it eliminates the one year wonder.

It captures the decline of Carey Price so well and demolishes every counter argument about his "weak defense".

I posted Allen's ENTIRE season stats. No cherry picking.

10 in the league in saves above percentage.

and a .910 SP.

Pretty darn solid.

And in this post we see how none of your propaganda holds water. On the one hand you say that we can compare backups to starters and there's no difference. We pointed out that it makes zero sense to do this because the numbers will be way out of whack. Moreover, backups are sheltered against harder teams. It tells you nothing about how they'll do when working as starters.

Allen for example was .920 before being the starter. He's been .894 since. This is not "cherrypicking" it's demonstrative that your entire premise is completely wrong.

You've been shot down so many times on this and yet you keep trotting it out.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Sure. If you like .894 since being given the starter's role.

lol did you really wait till after this game to respond

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Ive literally showed you why your logic is complete garbage over and over again. But you keep bringing up the same points. Use your guy Allen, the guy you continue to double down on, as the difference between comparing starters to backups, and why sample sizes matter, especially when it comes to work load. Why don’t you post Allen’s stats as a starter for us? You have no argument. The whole 1000 minutes is a cherry picked number by yourself.

Correct.

And I'm not going to have the cycles to be posting much on here in the next few months. I'm not wasting my time with that guy.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

lol did you really wait till after this game to respond

I waited until I get through my spreadsheets for work... which unfortunately, I'll have to get back to in about fifteen minutes.

Man's gotta eat.