Post-Game Talk: Capitals 3, Penguins 1 - Rage Rage Against The Dying Of the Light

[mpp9]

If we could replace prime PH and Kessel, that’d be ideal. It was wise for us to move Kessel when we did as he is a shadow of what he was. And maybe it was early to trade PH but it’s better to be early than too late on a player and contract like that. Unless you want to risk LA/Chicago contract situation.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

It’s also disingenuous to suggest that the Kings, Wings and Blackhawks had the same inevitable decline.

Detroit lost Lidstrom and Rafalski to retirement when they were still elite, Franzen to concussions when he was still elite, and Holland badly mismanaged their salary cap after that.

Chicago gave Seabrook the NHL’s worst deal, paid Toews and Kane more than Sid and Geno, and then traded Panarin and Hjalmarsson for no reason. Their window was still open and they shut it on themselves. Kane is still elite, Toews was good, they could have had Panarin. Stan Bowman ruined any hope that team had after 2017.

LA just put themselves in cap hell and their big money goalie declined a ton. They totally lost their identity when Sutter was canned as well.

Look at Boston. Bergeron and Marchand are similar in age to Malkin and Crosby. Their window, like Pittsburgh in 2015, looked closed and then blew open again.

Completely agree with this, especially Boston.

We are a goalie, a tenacious forward, sully 2.0 away from being great.

Oh and we need a better 4th line, so may need a piece, or at least bring up the right folks.

It’s not insurmountable.

I don’t want to be stuck in perpetual rebuild. We just restocked our D pretty well overall. I hope Matheson isn’t a flash in the pan but builds on his recent success.

 

[Gurglesons]

Crosby & Malkin are not committed to defense in the way that Bergeron and Marchand are. That's one of the biggest problems and why you'd rather have PB & BM right now over 87 and 71.

I also think we're coming to the conclusion that our two winger acquisitions don't fit and were overpays.

Finally, we've kept a coach whose system has obviously gone stale aside from a 4-month stretch at the start of last year. Soon all 4 of our penalty killers will be playing at the goal line.

Bergeron and Marchand have also been much more reliant on a powerplay to produce so there is that.

The biggest issue is coaching. Look at what happen in Boston. In 16-17 they had largely the same roster they had in 18-19.

The only big add they had was McAvoy.

This team needs fresh eyes. Proclaiming anything before getting a new coach is just silly. Every player that comes in looks great for a couple weeks then suddenly sucks after assimilating to the system. Oleksiak, Pearson, Zucker, Marino, POJ, etc.

 

[LOGiK]

I mean I agree that he isn’t going to really rock the boat. He’s not going to push the issue with Sid and I definitely think Sully needs to go. I’m just saying he probably wants to do some kind of wing swap like we all do, it’s just that he has to cater to Sid as well

I was going to say Michel Therrien is always there....

but he's assisting alain over there in philly....

 

[Pancakes]

There's definitely value on this team, even for a modest firesale. The question is simply: what is the ownerships' priority?

I really don't know what sort of value there is unless you're going to blow it up.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I think if the Pens have seen their best days, their decline will be linked to losing the competitive advantages that Kessel and Hornqvist brought, that they never replaced.

I don't know, POJ could make that Kessel trade worthwhile. I will say, I think that the combination of Sullivan's baffling stubbornness with the lines and GMJR's weird impressionistic trade mentality is the real root of it all.

It really does need to be said that we weren't getting the old Kessel if we kept him around...as much as I despised that trade when it happened, I hated it because I wasn't convinced that Kessel's inevitable steep decline had already begun. It had. POJ could easily make that trade a win for us. I find myself putting Coyotes games on quite a bit and Kessel is what you'd expect him to be once his inevitable decline started...a PP specialist who isn't even good at the PP anymore.

Not replacing that elite production certainly hasn't helped, but keeping Kessel wouldn't have fixed that.

Hörnqvist, though...I won't even dignify the concept of defending that one. My hate for that trade has only grown and my initial reaction to it was even worse than my reaction to what felt like giving Kessel to Arizona at the time.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If we could replace prime PH and Kessel, that’d be ideal. It was wise for us to move Kessel when we did as he is a shadow of what he was. And maybe it was early to trade PH but it’s better to be early than too late on a player and contract like that. Unless you want to risk LA/Chicago contract situation.

The problem is we replaced prime Kessel and Hornqvist with middle six wingers who rely on their centers to create chances to be effective.

Broken record time: I think that's been one of the bigger issues with the construction of the forward group. JR kept adding complimentary wingers with the assumption that Sid and Geno can continue to do what they did in their 20's -- carry the mail for their line so all they needed were guys who could finish their chances. But in reality, they're at stages in their careers where they need wingers who can actually carry the mail more often and not just "get open to finish".

We have one good playmaking winger and that's Guentzel. There's a reason this board argues about whether he should be with Sid or Geno. It's because he's literally the only winger who has the playmaking ability that both Sid and Geno need on their wings. The other wingers, by and large, need Sid and Geno to be the ones creating the chances to be effective and can't be relied upon to be the playmaker on the line.

 

[LOGiK]

Completely agree with this, especially Boston.

We are a goalie, a tenacious forward, sully 2.0 away from being great.

Oh and we need a better 4th line, so may need a piece, or at least bring up the right folks.

It’s not insurmountable.

I don’t want to be stuck in perpetual rebuild. We just restocked our D pretty well overall. I hope Matheson isn’t a flash in the pan but builds on his recent success.

MAF
Horny
Bylsma?

 

[HandshakeLine]

And potentially got a top 4 LD out of the deal. I mean, it's not like Galchenyk was really the centerpiece of the Kessel deal.

It sucks that we haven't gotten an elite winger like Kessel yet, but potential top-pairing LDs are nothing to sniff at in the value department.

 

[Pancakes]

It’s also disingenuous to suggest that the Kings, Wings and Blackhawks had the same inevitable decline.

Detroit lost Lidstrom and Rafalski to retirement when they were still elite, Franzen to concussions when he was still elite, and Holland badly mismanaged their salary cap after that.

Chicago gave Seabrook the NHL’s worst deal, paid Toews and Kane more than Sid and Geno, and then traded Panarin and Hjalmarsson for no reason. Their window was still open and they shut it on themselves. Kane is still elite, Toews was good, they could have had Panarin. Stan Bowman ruined any hope that team had after 2017.

LA just put themselves in cap hell and their big money goalie declined a ton. They totally lost their identity when Sutter was canned as well.

Look at Boston. Bergeron and Marchand are similar in age to Malkin and Crosby. Their window, like Pittsburgh in 2015, looked closed and then blew open again.

I'm sure if we can find a David Pastrnak and if Malkin can start playing like a 100 point player again we'll be in a similar boat.

Unfortunately there's no Pastrnak coming and while Marchand weirdly seems to be getting better the older he gets Malkin looks like he's getting worse.

 

[Turin]

Crosby & Malkin are not committed to defense in the way that Bergeron and Marchand are. That's one of the biggest problems and why you'd rather have PB & BM right now over 87 and 71.

I also think we're coming to the conclusion that our two winger acquisitions don't fit and were overpays.

Finally, we've kept a coach whose system has obviously gone stale aside from a 4-month stretch at the start of last year. Soon all 4 of our penalty killers will be playing at the goal line.

Sid was better defensively than both just a season and a half ago. It can happen, but coaching is part of the issue.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm sure if we can find a David Pastrnak and if Malkin can start playing like a 100 point player again we'll be in a similar boat.

Unfortunately there's no Pastrnak coming and while Marchand weirdly seems to be getting better the older he gets Malkin looks like he's getting worse.

Pasta is a fantastic player, but Boston has largely had no 2nd line since he entered the league aside from a couple days of Rick Nash looking like gold there.

There is no reason our youth movement can’t infuse the same success Boston has had most years. I don’t think this team is making another SCF, but we should be making the 2nd round.

 

[Turin]

I'm sure if we can find a David Pastrnak and if Malkin can start playing like a 100 point player again we'll be in a similar boat.

Unfortunately there's no Pastrnak coming and while Marchand weirdly seems to be getting better the older he gets Malkin looks like he's getting worse.

Malkin was a top 5 forward last season. Guentzel isn’t Pastrnak but he’s good enough for being a young-ish 1st line winger. Pens need a better power play, they need a new energy, and need a goalie. Not easy but not impossible to address.

 

[Gurglesons]

The problem is we replaced prime Kessel and Hornqvist with middle six wingers who rely on their centers to create chances to be effective.

Broken record time: I think that's been one of the bigger issues with the construction of the forward group. JR kept adding complimentary wingers with the assumption that Sid and Geno can continue to do what they did in their 20's -- carry the mail for their line so all they needed were guys who could finish their chances. But in reality, they're at stages in their careers where they need wingers who can actually carry the mail more often and not just "get open to finish".

We have one good playmaking winger and that's Guentzel. There's a reason this board argues about whether he should be with Sid or Geno. It's because he's literally the only winger who has the playmaking ability that both Sid and Geno need on their wings. The other wingers, by and large, need Sid and Geno to be the ones creating the chances to be effective and can't be relied upon to be the playmaker on the line.

Here is the dirty secret. Hornqvist is a winger that relies on his center or talent on his line and Kessel has turned into a one note player.

Hornqvist is having the season he is having because he is playing with a top ten LW.

 

[Pancakes]

Pasta is a fantastic player, but Boston has largely had no 2nd line since he entered the league aside from a couple days of Rick Nash looking like gold there.

Doesn't seem to matter a whole lot when you have the best top line in the league.

Boston always seems so ridiculously well structured to me too when we play them. That's bizarre to me because their coach looks and sounds like a complete buffoon and there was a story about him showing up to Caps training camp years ago and reading a speech he wrote on the back of a napkin.

But whatever the hell he's doing in Boston he has had that team playing superb hockey.

Also they did pick up other players beyond Pasta. McAvoy is tremendous. And they always seem to have at least one goalie playing really well, which also helps.

For our part, Guentzel is really damned good and I guess you could say is our Pasta. He's not as good as Pasta though. And we have nobody else on the way like that. Mayyybe Poulin but even though Poulin looks legit I doubt he ends up as a star.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Here is the dirty secret. Hornqvist is a winger that relies on his center and Kessel has turned into a one note player.

Yeah, if Hornqvist/Sullivan could have convinced Sid to keep Horny in the top 6, I doubt he'd have gotten traded. Doesn't make the return any better, per se, but the Hornqvist trade isn't at all like the Kessel trade, IMO.

 

[Pancakes]

Malkin was a top 5 forward last season. Guentzel isn’t Pastrnak but he’s good enough for being a young-ish 1st line winger. Pens need a better power play, they need a new energy, and need a goalie. Not easy but not impossible to address.

That's true, but this year Malkin's game has gone way downhill. I can only hope it has something to do with the lack of fans, lack of his normal off season training regimen, etc. Maybe he'll bounce back once things return to normal.

But as good as Malkin was last year if THIS is his new normal we're f***ed no matter what Hextall decides to do with the rest of the team.

 

[Gurglesons]

Doesn't seem to matter a whole lot when you have the best top line in the league.

Boston always seems so ridiculously well structured to me too when we play them. That's bizarre to me because their coach looks and sounds like a complete buffoon and there was a story about him showing up to Caps training camp years ago and reading a speech he wrote on the back of a napkin.

But whatever the hell he's doing in Boston he has had that team playing superb hockey.

Also they did pick up other players beyond Pasta. McAvoy is tremendous. And they always seem to have at least one goalie playing really well, which also helps.

For our part, Guentzel is really damned good and I guess you could say is our Pasta. He's not as good as Pasta though. And we have nobody else on the way like that. Mayyybe Poulin but even though Poulin looks legit I doubt he ends up as a star.

Yes, Boston is coached like a team and PIT since 2017-18 has been coached like individuals with no accountability. At least in 17-18 Sully was willing to make adjustments though. Guentzel - Sheahan - Kessel, Simon - Crosby - Sprong, etc.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, if Hornqvist/Sullivan could have convinced Sid to keep Horny in the top 6, I doubt he'd have gotten traded. Doesn't make the return any better, per se, but the Hornqvist trade isn't at all like the Kessel trade, IMO.

Hornqvist’s time here was done and pretending he was some secret ingredient is just as stupid as acting like Kessel was still a positive. He did jackshit in both playoff series the last two years.

Hornqvist is working in Florida because they have had a top ten powerplay for three years and he is playing opposite one of the most underrated players in the league in Huberdeau.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Here is the dirty secret. Hornqvist is a winger that relies on his center or talent on his line and Kessel has turned into a one note player.

Hornqvist is having the season he is having because he is playing with a top ten LW.

Not sure how that contradicts what I was saying? I mentioned not replacing prime versions of those guys AND how Sid and Geno can't carry lines like they could in their 20s. Two different points I was touching on that you kind of combined into one.

The more people act like Sid and Geno can still carry their line with two wingers who aren't playmakers, the more people are going to rag on Sid and Geno every GDT when they fail to do so. Once people realize they're 34/35 years old with a lot of mileage on them and can't be expected to be the source of 99% of the chances created any longer, we'll be in a better place.

JR built a forward roster that requires Sid and Geno to be 20-something again. It's not a forward roster that takes into account mid-30s Sid and Geno.

 

[Gurglesons]

Not sure how that contradicts what I was saying? I mentioned not replacing prime versions of those guys AND how Sid and Geno can't carry lines like they could in their 20s. Two different points I was touching on that you kind of combined into one.

The more people act like Sid and Geno can still carry their line with two wingers who aren't playmakers, the more people are going to rag on Sid and Geno every GDT when they fail to do so. Once people realize they're 34/35 years old with a lot of mileage on them and can't be expected to be the source of 99% of the chances created any longer, we'll be in a better place.

JR built a forward roster that requires Sid and Geno to be 20-something again. It's not a forward roster that takes into account mid-30s Sid and Geno.

Our 2nd line has hypothetical better wingers than what Boston had in 18-19.

Rust is currently at 12 in 13 GP.

The wingers aren’t the issue. The mix is.

Our success in the playoffs is was based on Sullivan actually coaching and not just doing what Sid wanted.

Kessel was on L3. Hornqvist was up with Sid. Malkin got the leftovers. Our D wasn’t stubbornly reliant on one guy doing everything.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Not sure how that contradicts what I was saying? I mentioned not replacing prime versions of those guys AND how Sid and Geno can't carry lines like they could in their 20s. Two different points I was touching on that you kind of combined into one.

The more people act like Sid and Geno can still carry their line with two wingers who aren't playmakers, the more people are going to rag on Sid and Geno every GDT when they fail to do so. Once people realize they're 34/35 years old with a lot of mileage on them and can't be expected to be the source of 99% of the chances created any longer, we'll be in a better place.

JR built a forward roster that requires Sid and Geno to be 20-something again. It's not a forward roster that takes into account mid-30s Sid and Geno.

I don't have a problem with dropping Kessel and Hornqvist.

POJ looks like a future 2nd pairing stud and Horny needed to go. Plus Matheson...I don't even want to say it but he may actually be worth it after all.

I do have a problem with targeting the likes of Zucker and Kapanen neither of whom is a star and neither of whom replaces what Kessel used to be on the PP. We should be star-hunting for exactly what you said - Sid & Geno aren't good enough anymore to play-make for their lines (and the PP) 100% of the time.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't have a problem with dropping Kessel and Hornqvist.

POJ looks like a future 2nd pairing stud and Horny needed to go. Plus Matheson...I don't even want to say it but he may actually be worth it after all.

I do have a problem with targeting the likes of Zucker and Kapanen neither of whom is a star and neither of whom replaces what Kessel used to be on the PP. We should be star-hunting for exactly what you said - Sid & Geno aren't good enough anymore to play-make for their lines (and the PP) 100% of the time.

The only forward in this caliber moved recently is Stone.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The only forward in this caliber moved recently is Stone.

Hall

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Our 2nd line has hypothetical better wingers than what Boston had in 18-19.

Rust is currently at 12 in 13 GP.

The wingers aren’t the issue. The mix is.

Our success in the playoffs is was based on Sullivan actually coaching and not just doing what Sid wanted.

Kessel was on L3. Hornqvist was up with Sid. Malkin got the leftovers. Our D wasn’t stubbornly reliant on one guy doing everything.

Our success also coincided with Sid and Geno not being mid 30s. You keep mentioning who played with whom when we won the Cup, ignoring my point about Sid and Geno aging. Geno also carried Fedotenko and Talbot to a Conn Smythe run. Doesn't mean we should expect him to do something similar now.

As for Boston's wingers, again, look at the *type* of wingers they had. Johansson was a deadline acquisition who added another playmaking type to their lineup. And DeBrusk had 27 goals that season. Not sure either Kapanen or Zucker are going to hit those totals (pace) this year.

You can keep saying the wingers are fine, but you keep ignoring my point about the type of player they are. It's not that, individually, guys like Zucker and Kapanen suck or are useless. They're good for what they are. But they're not the *type* of winger our centers need at this point in their careers.