Post-Game Talk: Capitals 3, Penguins 1 - Rage Rage Against The Dying Of the Light

[Dipsy Doodle]

It’s funny. I distinctly remember a lot of the posters giving Malkin a pass now being the same posters ragging on Crosby when he had Dominik Simon as his winger, saying Crosby needed to be better.

I don't think I was ever one of those, but there's a big difference between having Guentzel and Simon as wingers and having Zucker and Kapanen, and I have no doubt about which duo Crosby - or Malkin - would choose.

 

[Andy99]

 

[Turin]

Maybe but it’s just a bit melodramatic to say that after a loss to a team looking to break a 4 game losing streak who you just beat a couple nights prior.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not ready to jump on that boat until I see every possible move exhausted to improve this club, including new coach, new lines, new system, etc.

I don't necessarily think the roster is the issue or that it's as dire as those three teams at the time they started their declines. I think it's the utilization of that roster that's the bigger culprit.

 

[dogthateats]

Lol Colin Dunlap

 

[EightyOne]

If this were true, what do you do? There isn't really enough value on the team to trade for picks or prospects, we can't even throw this year away because Guerin f***ed JR... So we can not finish bottom of league, don't have shit to trade, anyone good in AHL is already on the team....

Just struggle with no hope?

 

[Icarium]

Not much to say - it's hard to win if you stop playing around minute 15 and proceed to take a bunch of dumb penalties to boot. This time the skaters let down Jarry rather than vice versa.

 

[Pens x]

Maybe but it’s just a bit melodramatic to say that after a loss to a team looking to break a 4 game losing streak who you just beat a couple nights prior.

I’m sure he’s basing his comments off the whole season, not just last night.

 

[HandshakeLine]

There's definitely value on this team, even for a modest firesale. The question is simply: what is the ownerships' priority?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also, lol at Colin Dunlap being some sort of authority we should listen to one way or the other.

 

[Turin]

It’s also disingenuous to suggest that the Kings, Wings and Blackhawks had the same inevitable decline.

Detroit lost Lidstrom and Rafalski to retirement when they were still elite, Franzen to concussions when he was still elite, and Holland badly mismanaged their salary cap after that.

Chicago gave Seabrook the NHL’s worst deal, paid Toews and Kane more than Sid and Geno, and then traded Panarin and Hjalmarsson for no reason. Their window was still open and they shut it on themselves. Kane is still elite, Toews was good, they could have had Panarin. Stan Bowman ruined any hope that team had after 2017.

LA just put themselves in cap hell and their big money goalie declined a ton. They totally lost their identity when Sutter was canned as well.

Look at Boston. Bergeron and Marchand are similar in age to Malkin and Crosby. Their window, like Pittsburgh in 2015, looked closed and then blew open again.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It’s also disingenuous to suggest that the Kings, Wings and Blackhawks had the same inevitable decline.

Detroit lost Lidstrom and Rafalski to retirement when they were still elite, Franzen to concussions when he was still elite, and Holland badly mismanaged their salary cap after that.

Chicago gave Seabrook the NHL’s worst deal, paid Toews and Kane more than Sid and Geno, and then traded Panarin and Hjalmarsson for no reason. Their window was still open and they shut it on themselves. Kane is still elite, Toews was good, they could have had Panarin. Stan Bowman ruined any hope that team had after 2017.

LA just put themselves in cap hell and their big money goalie declined a ton. They totally lost their identity when Sutter was canned as well.

Yeah. Bad decisions lead to premature decline.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yeah. Bad decisions lead to premature decline.

And not all declines are irreversible either.

But then again, I'm not a drive time morning DJ, so what do I know?

 

[ChaosAgent]

It’s also disingenuous to suggest that the Kings, Wings and Blackhawks had the same inevitable decline.

Detroit lost Lidstrom and Rafalski to retirement when they were still elite, Franzen to concussions when he was still elite, and Holland badly mismanaged their salary cap after that.

Chicago gave Seabrook the NHL’s worst deal, paid Toews and Kane more than Sid and Geno, and then traded Panarin and Hjalmarsson for no reason. Their window was still open and they shut it on themselves. Kane is still elite, Toews was good, they could have had Panarin. Stan Bowman ruined any hope that team had after 2017.

LA just put themselves in cap hell and their big money goalie declined a ton. They totally lost their identity when Sutter was canned as well.

Look at Boston. Bergeron and Marchand are similar in age to Malkin and Crosby. Their window, like Pittsburgh in 2015, looked closed and then blew open again.

The Seabrook contract was instantly laughable. It was the kind of "thank you" contract that shouldn't exist in the NHL.

 

[Turin]

Yeah. Bad decisions lead to premature decline.

Could happen in Pittsburgh (or maybe already has) but we don’t know. Out of all the teams there LA is the most similar, but still not quite comparable.

Penguins haven’t lost any elite talent for little to no return like Lidstrom, Rafalski, Franzen, Panarin and they don’t have quite the cap headaches of Seabrook or Quick or Richards. If you compare Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Letang, Marino to Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, MacAvoy and Chara it’s not far off. Pens just need a better depth mix and better goaltending, which will be difficult but not impossible to do.

 

[Pens x]

Aren’t bad decisions also closing our window too? We don’t have any horrible contracts besides Matheson, I guess that is the biggest difference.

But our GM drove this team into the ground for three years regardless, and we continue to employ a coach that seemingly lost the room two seasons ago.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Could happen in Pittsburgh (or maybe already has) but we don’t know. Out of all the teams there LA is the most similar, but still not quite comparable.

Penguins haven’t lost any elite talent for little to no return like Lidstrom, Rafalski, Franzen, Panarin and they don’t have quite the cap headaches of Seabrook or Quick or Richards. If you compare Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Letang, Marino to Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, MacAvoy and Chara it’s not far off. Pens just need a better depth mix and better goaltending, which will be difficult but not impossible to do.

I think if the Pens have seen their best days, their decline will be linked to losing the competitive advantages that Kessel and Hornqvist brought, that they never replaced.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think if the Pens have seen their best days, their decline will be linked to losing the competitive advantages that Kessel and Hornqvist brought, that they never replaced.

I don't know, POJ could make that Kessel trade worthwhile. I will say, I think that the combination of Sullivan's baffling stubbornness with the lines and GMJR's weird impressionistic trade mentality is the real root of it all.

 

[JRS91]

Honestly, I don't disagree with him.

Whether people want to accept it or not, the reason they won in 2016 and 2017 was simple. Players playing over their heads, the addition of players with good analytics, recalling talent from the AHL to fill the holes. Obviously the Kessel trade helped the most, I don't mind mortgaging some part of the future for a top level talent like Kessel.

Trading an analytical nightmare in Sutter for a good analytical player in Bonino was a good move. Trading a bad contract in Scuderi for Daley was a good move. Trading a player that just didn't fit in Perron and acquiring a guy that would fit your system in Hagelin was a good move. Obviously luck played a part in it. If these didn't work out, we'd be talking about how bad they were, but the intention of improving the team was there regardless. Bonino and Kessel were solid playoff performers before joining the team.

Then you have filling the gaps with younger talent, something the previous regime didn't do and why they accomplished little during their tenure here. Ray Shero refused to use AHL talent, instead opting for signing veteran guys to fill those gaps in the bottom-six. That's a huge reason why they won, and I think it's overlooked. Guentzel, Dumoulin, Sheary, Murray, Rust, and even guys like Kuhnhackl and Wilson played big roles in 2016 and 2017. That's how you win. You don't gamble your future every year while you fill your lineup with guys like Jack Johnson. That's why Rutherford left. He stripped the team dry of resources and knew he couldn't keep doing it without dismantling part of the team. Hiring Hextall was a good move, hopefully he does what he did in Philadelphia. I know people will say "But ownership said they want to win it all this year". Of course they did, do you expect them to give up after 10 games? Putting an emphasis on drafting doesn't mean you're rebuilding. People need to understand that.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't know, POJ could make that Kessel trade worthwhile. I will say, I think that the combination of Sullivan's baffling stubbornness with the lines and GMJR's weird impressionistic trade mentality is the real root of it all.

Also definitely factors.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think if the Pens have seen their best days, their decline will be linked to losing the competitive advantages that Kessel and Hornqvist brought, that they never replaced.

Why did we get swept with both of them and technically not even make the playoffs with Hornqvist then?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Also definitely factors.

I feel like the last 3 years of JR's tenure should be a case study in bad decision making on all organizational levels.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Could happen in Pittsburgh (or maybe already has) but we don’t know. Out of all the teams there LA is the most similar, but still not quite comparable.

Penguins haven’t lost any elite talent for little to no return like Lidstrom, Rafalski, Franzen, Panarin and they don’t have quite the cap headaches of Seabrook or Quick or Richards. If you compare Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Letang, Marino to Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, MacAvoy and Chara it’s not far off. Pens just need a better depth mix and better goaltending, which will be difficult but not impossible to do.

Crosby & Malkin are not committed to defense in the way that Bergeron and Marchand are. That's one of the biggest problems and why you'd rather have PB & BM right now over 87 and 71.

I also think we're coming to the conclusion that our two winger acquisitions don't fit and were overpays.

Finally, we've kept a coach whose system has obviously gone stale aside from a 4-month stretch at the start of last year. Soon all 4 of our penalty killers will be playing at the goal line.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Honestly, I don't disagree with him.

Whether people want to accept it or not, the reason they won in 2016 and 2017 was simple. Players playing over their heads, the addition of players with good analytics, recalling talent from the AHL to fill the holes.

Not to put too fine a point upon it, but that describes nearly every Cup winner since the implementation of the salary cap. It tells us nothing about the future viability of this team, nor the replicability of the recipe, so to speak.

 

[Pancakes]

Putting an emphasis on drafting doesn't mean you're rebuilding. People need to understand that.

We have no first this year and no way of getting one without making a major move like trading Letang, Malkin, Guentzel, etc. Maybe Hextall can start hoarding picks starting next year but this year almost has to be all-in out of necessity.