Post-Game Talk: Capitals 3, Penguins 1 - Rage Rage Against The Dying Of the Light

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HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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I wanted to go to Vietnam with the fiancé as she wanted to take me and just explore where her parents are from. But it's funny when I meet her family via facetime and they basically call me black guy in Vietnamese and I found out because I was like hey what is that word they keep calling me and she went red and was like "Babe ok don't take offense it's just a word because it's easier to say and not mean" and I laughed. But we were supposed to go to Prague and Greece as well on that trip last year.

Damn wet markets.

Man, you and I could have been arguing about tailoring options in unlicensed Viet-Russian after hours bars! You probably lucked out. :laugh:
 
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Dipsy Doodle

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I feel like being on the Pens PP should actually be a bigger handicap than being on the 'Yotes. :laugh:

I still do not get how Reirden has a job in this league.

Elite talent and spacing where everybody is comfortable in their place can make up for a lot of coaching shortcomings.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Yes. What this team need is a 6.8 mil version of what we see in Zucker who has scored 23 goals (10 of which are at ES) in his last 100 games.

A 26 pt pace ES player over his last 100 games is certainly the X factor our top six needs.

Oh on top of that he has a 41% GF% during that time.

My post was dedicated to PP performance, so that's where our focus should be.

Zucker doesn't make our top 6 or PP better, so I fail to see how he enters into the conversation.

The lesson everyone should take from the Kessel trade is that if an almost irreplaceable talent is helping you a lot in an area, it's better to try to shelter their weaknesses than get rid of them altogether.

The lesson we need to take moving forward is that if we want to help the PP, since don't have much in the way of assets, maybe that player doesn't have to be a Patrice Bergeron-esque renaissance talent. Maybe he can just be good on the PP, and we'll put a Hagelin on his other wing to do the yeoman's work at ES.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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Elite talent and spacing where everybody is comfortable in their place can make up for a lot of coaching shortcomings.

Sure, I'm not disputing that. But problem is, we haven't had a power play which actually used said elite talent in probably close to a decade. Kessel made it better for a period, same with Hornqvist, but even then, we were never able to harness the man advantage the way Tampa and Washington did.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Sure, I'm not disputing that. But problem is, we haven't had a power play which actually used said elite talent in probably close to a decade.

Yeah that would help.

I don't see the PP coaching cavalry coming any time soon though.

Kessel made it better for a period, same with Hornqvist, but even then, we were never able to harness the man advantage the way Tampa and Washington did.

True. But we did a hell of a lot better than we're doing now.
 

Gurglesons

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My post was dedicated to PP performance, so that's where our focus should be.

Zucker doesn't make our top 6 or PP better, so I fail to see how he enters into the conversation.

The lesson everyone should take from the Kessel trade is that if an almost irreplaceable talent is helping you a lot in an area, it's better to try to shelter their weaknesses than get rid of them altogether.

The lesson we need to take moving forward is that if we want to help the PP, since don't have much in the way of assets, maybe that player doesn't have to be a Patrice Bergeron-esque renaissance talent. Maybe he can just be good on the PP, and we'll put a Hagelin on his other wing to do the yeoman's work at ES.

You’d be okay with a player producing 26 points on Malkin’s wing making 6.8 million at 32?
 

Dipsy Doodle

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You’d be okay with a player producing 26 points on Malkin’s wing making 6.8 million at 32?

1. He'd be playing on Malkin's wing, not Stepan, Keller, Brassard, or Dvorak. 26 points are very unlikely. He had 46 the last season he played with the Pens.
2. I don't see a single area where Zucker makes the Pens a better team. Kessel could be productive at ES and on the PP. That was never not the case for Kessel in Pittsburgh, whatever his other failings.

Most importantly, I'd trade Zucker for another high-priced forward if he could help our PP, even if he struggled in other areas. Because we're asset-deprived, and well-rounded PP performers are scarce at the best of times. If we narrow the aperture to players who aren't only great on the PP but also play great defense and work the boards and go to the net we're not going to find anyone, and on the off chance we do they'll be out of our price range.

Like, are we just crossing our fingers and praying Forsberg will come to us or what?
 

KIRK

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I mentioned this to @KIRK recently but I miss the version of Mike Sullivan that cussed a lot and showed a good bit of passion behind the bench. I think people listened to that version more. Maybe it's confirmation bias. I also miss the version that would change systems in the middle of a seven game series just because what he was doing wasn't working.

Would they listen now the way they did then, when it was fresh, or would it lose them further?

(I kind of file that one under separating Malkin and Zucker . . . who knows if it would work, but the status quo isn't working, so may as well try something different)

As to the tactical flexibility, yeah, the Pens certainly need a coach like 2016-2017 Mike Sullivan now.
 

KIRK

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You’d be okay with a player producing 26 points on Malkin’s wing making 6.8 million at 32?

Not going to get in the middle of your discussion of a particular name to acquire. Rather, I hopped in here to say this: I don't care how productive or unproductive a specific Malkin winger is as much as I do about his impact, be it positive or negative, on whether Malkin is driving possession, chances, etc.
 
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Gurglesons

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1. He'd be playing on Malkin's wing, not Stepan, Keller, Brassard, or Dvorak. 26 points are very unlikely. He had 46 the last season he played with the Pens.
2. I don't see a single area where Zucker makes the Pens a better team. Kessel could be productive at ES and on the PP. That was never not the case for Kessel in Pittsburgh, whatever his other failings.

Most importantly, I'd trade Zucker for another high-priced forward if he could help our PP, even if he struggled in other areas. Because we're asset-deprived, and well-rounded PP performers are scarce at the best of times. If we narrow the aperture to players who aren't only great on the PP but also play great defense and work the boards and go to the net we're not going to find anyone, and on the off chance we do they'll be out of our price range.

Like, are we just crossing our fingers and praying Forsberg will come to us or what?

I'm confused why Zucker isn't suddenly tearing it up with being on Malkin's wing since he played with inferior players in Minnesota as well.

Kessel is no longer productive at ES and the whole argument is putting a fit on his wing that helps Malkin succeed. Kessel never set up Malkin to succeed aside from the 2017 playoffs while here.

Also, we have no idea what Zucker adds to our power play because he has spent like 5 minutes on the 1st unit. Which is bizarre because he's out best net front player and has put up 20+ pts on the power play every season besides this one. Did you know Zucker had one less power play goal than Hornqvist in 37 less games last year on PIT and also produced at a better PPPG pace. He also had as many PP goals as Hornqvist in the playoffs. Yet Sully gon' Sully.
 
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Gurglesons

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Not going to get in the middle of your discussion of a particular name to acquire. Rather, I hopped in here to say this: I don't care how productive or unproductive a specific Malkin winger is as much as I do about his impact, be it positive or negative, on whether Malkin is driving possession, chances, etc.

Which more to the point never happened with Kessel on Malkin's wing as we all know.
 
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KIRK

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Geno has to be ok riding shot gun but Sid can't when it's a benefit to the team and we're led to believe he's an amazing leader and blah blah. Last season it was clear the trio of GMR was our best line in a very long time. But again this team let's Crosby dictate over doing the right thing to win.

Imagine if Malkin did that. This board would be all over him. But when Sid does it it's oh he's owed whatever blah blah.

Well duh. :laugh:

Funny thing is, IF they flipped wingers for a game or two, you'd get a pretty good idea about how much of Malkin's struggles are about Malkin and about how much are the bad mix (especially with Zucker).

PERSONALLY, I see the argument both ways. On the one hand, when Malkin has the puck, the other two (mainly Zucker) are flat footed and not supporting. On the other hand, when the other two are flying north, Malkin rarely is keeping up . . . what I don't know is if that's conditioning (i.e., it was that extra burst last year that made the timing work with Jake and Rust) or discouragement (i.e., when he does bust his ass to be third man with them, they have no clue he's there anyway, so kind of a 'why kill myself if they're going to ignore me'). You stick him with Jake and Rust for a game or two, and you'll get your answer.

EDIT: I think the defensive issues are all about trying to cheat offensively. IF he's right, then you would see a marked improvement defensively as well with Jake and Rust. Maybe not like last year in any zone, but as least you'd have an idea what you've got, because right now you're dead with this Malkin and Zucker attached to his hip.
 

Will Hunting

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My guess about what happens if Geno and Sid switch wingers. Zucker and Kap would kill Crosby similarly as to how they are killing Malkin. And Malkin would neutralize Rust and Jake too. So instead of one great line and one awful line we would have 2 mediocre lines, IMO. Because Kap, Zucker and Geno are all playing really bad hockey now and I don´t think it is gonna change soon. Especially with Zucker and Geno, maybe they are who they are at this point.
 

Gurglesons

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My guess about what happens if Geno and Sid switch wingers. Zucker and Kap would kill Crosby similarly as to how they are killing Malkin. And Malkin would neutralize Rust and Jake too. So instead of one great line and one awful line we would have 2 mediocre lines, IMO. Because Kap, Zucker and Geno are all playing really bad hockey now and I don´t think it is gonna change soon. Especially with Zucker and Geno, maybe they are who they are at this point.

Well, what we currently have happening is a line that is barely good enough to get us going .500 and an absolute trash line. So what is the problem with trying something different?

Zucker was an absolute lightning bolt for us last year with Sheary. How does that fall off completely?
 
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KIRK

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My guess about what happens if Geno and Sid switch wingers. Zucker and Kap would kill Crosby similarly as to how they are killing Malkin. And Malkin would neutralize Rust and Jake too. So instead of one great line and one awful line we would have 2 mediocre lines, IMO. Because Kap, Zucker and Geno are all playing really bad hockey now and I don´t think it is gonna change soon. Especially with Zucker and Geno, maybe they are who they are at this point.

The 'safer' move then is to flip Malkin and Blueger.
 

KIRK

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Well, what we currently have happening is a line that is barely good enough to get us going .500 and an absolute trash line. So what is the problem with trying something different?

Zucker was an absolute lightning bolt for us last year with Sheary. How does that fall off completely?

And the operative word is SOMETHING. If not flipping Sid and Geno, then something else. Pretty much anything else.
 

Gurglesons

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And the operative word is SOMETHING. If not flipping Sid and Geno, then something else. Pretty much anything else.

It'll be cool when we see nothing different besides like Tanev and Kapanen switched on Thursday which is obviously an even stupider thing to do since X (and especially ZAR) - Blueger - Tanev have been one of the few bright spots this year.
 
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mpp9

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The 'safer' move then is to flip Malkin and Blueger.

That actually may be the best realistic move lol. Malkin likely gets back to acceptable play and Blueger gets a chance to play with some skilled players.

They’re pretty much rolling the top 3 lines anyway.
 

Gurglesons

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That actually may be the best realistic move lol. Malkin likely gets back to acceptable play and Blueger gets a chance to play with some skilled players.

They’re pretty much rolling the top 3 lines anyway.

Bleuger is outproducing Malkin this year, so if Sullivan is going to play favorites. Might as well do it and hold Malkin and Zucker accountable.

Guentzel - Blueger - Kapanen
Zucker - Crosby - Rust
ZAR - Malkin - Tanev
 
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KIRK

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It'll be cool when we see nothing different besides like Tanev and Kapanen switched on Thursday which is obviously an even stupider thing to do since X (and especially ZAR) - Blueger - Tanev have been one of the few bright spots this year.

Oh, it's kind of my default position at this point to expect the absolute worst from Sullivan where the management of L2 is concerned.
 
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