Confirmed with Link: Canucks sign C Teddy Blueger to 1-Year, $1.9M Deal

[arttk]

Hearing Allvin talk about Blueger's faceoff stats must be triggering for some.

I'm a bit on the fence about this trade. He fills a need and it's only 1 year. I do have the sinking feeling that we (once again) overpaid for a 4C who can PK. Penguins fans seem to think he sucked since his jaw injury.

Personally prefer to have kept Dickinson and our 2nd instead.

Dickinson is like 3.25? Can’t pk and can’t play as a center. As a 3rd line guy he gives you zero offense unless you give him the Grandlund treatment and also with us looked like he sucks defensively.
Bluegar is 1.9, actually good at PK and can play as a center. Offense sucks like Dickinson but at least offers some kind of utility.

Not sure I would say Bleugar is a Dickinson replacement because Dickinson never played that role for us.

 

[VanJack]

Dickinson is like 3.25? Can’t pk and can’t play as a center. As a 3rd line guy he gives you zero offense unless you give him the Grandlund treatment and also with us looked like he sucks defensively.
Bluegar is 1.9, actually good at PK and can play as a center. Offense sucks like Dickinson but at least offers some kind of utility.

Not sure I would say Bleugar is a Dickinson replacement because Dickinson never played that role for us.

For a guy with his skillset and track record, the contract for Bluegar is just about right.

On the other hand the contract Benning handed out to Dickinson was an abomination. The Stars were set to lose him in the expansion draft to Seattle, so they off-loaded him on to the Canucks. Benning them promptly signed him to a three year contract, at close to $2.7m a season.

Of course as we all know, the Canucks were forced to cough up a second-rounder just to unload his contract on the Hawks, who also stuck the Canucks with a two year deal for Stillman.

I mean a second, a third and Stillman.....does it get any uglier than that?

 

[Petey But Really Jim]

Dickinson is like 3.25? Can’t pk and can’t play as a center. As a 3rd line guy he gives you zero offense unless you give him the Grandlund treatment and also with us looked like he sucks defensively.
Bluegar is 1.9, actually good at PK and can play as a center. Offense sucks like Dickinson but at least offers some kind of utility.

Not sure I would say Bleugar is a Dickinson replacement because Dickinson never played that role for us.

Dickinson was a low scoring, not yet everyday player on a relatively successful, quality defensive team. His hockeydb page or another like site probably listed him as a centre. The acquisition price seemed pleasantly low. He had room to grow and was clearly just in need of an opportunity. Perfect 3c!

Benning.

 

[bossram]

No, and I'm not saying I'm never confrontational or condescending, but I think many would also levy a similar criticism towards you, so where does that leave us?

And like I said, there are times I have been needlessly condescending and at times I have apologized for that.

But often what gets called 'condescending' is just forcing someone to defend some ignorant blanket statement that they make and then want the echo chamber to clap for them.

Let's remember, you're the one that replied to me! I didn't engage you first! I definitely can be an a**hole at times on this site, but it's almost always reciprocal to someone else.

And I would say I was pretty cordial in my first few replies to you. You are the one that escalated into confrontational/condescending territory, with this reply:

Your scenario seems to dictate that having seen that chart we should now be screaming that Blueger is actually Mike Hoffman incarnate because if we don't love JFresh we must immediately oppose any info he provides?

This is just being confrontational for the sake of it. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. You're trying to make it look like I staked out some extreme position I never did. All for the purpose of...what? Is this a good-faith discussion?

You can take the accountability for this devolution of discussion in this thread. It's how almost every interaction with you goes.

 

[VIPettersson]

Dickinson is like 3.25? Can’t pk and can’t play as a center. As a 3rd line guy he gives you zero offense unless you give him the Grandlund treatment and also with us looked like he sucks defensively.
Bluegar is 1.9, actually good at PK and can play as a center. Offense sucks like Dickinson but at least offers some kind of utility.

Not sure I would say Bleugar is a Dickinson replacement because Dickinson never played that role for us.

I hated Dickinson here. It was hilariously surprising or maybe unsurprising that he was brought in to be a 3rd line C but hes a winger! And not only was he a winger he was absolutely garbage too.

 

[F A N]

Dickinson is like 3.25? Can’t pk and can’t play as a center. As a 3rd line guy he gives you zero offense unless you give him the Grandlund treatment and also with us looked like he sucks defensively.
Bluegar is 1.9, actually good at PK and can play as a center. Offense sucks like Dickinson but at least offers some kind of utility.

Not sure I would say Bleugar is a Dickinson replacement because Dickinson never played that role for us.

Your post contains some inaccuracies.

Dickinson makes $2.65AAV. He does PK and he can play C. He was 3rd among Canucks forwards in SH ice time per game (not counting Richardson) two seasons ago. He was second among Chicago forwards in SH ice time per game (and 1st in faceoffs taken short handed) and their PK was better than ours. I'm not saying he's a good player but clearly doesn't "suck" defensively or "suck" on the PK.

Dickinson is a vanilla player who definitely wasn't/isn't worth his cap hit. For some reason his coaches like to play him throughout the lineup as if he is a swiss army knife. Maybe he should have been used the way Lammikko was used.

Blueger is coming off a bad season and Allvin seems to be expecting him to bounce back offensively. I'm just preparing myself to be disappointed. I don't doubt that Blueger is better on the PK than Dickinson but he's being paid $1.9M to do it. It's not that far from what Dickinson is making and given a choice I would prefer to keep Dickinson and keep the 2nd round pick is all I'm saying.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Let's remember, you're the one that replied to me! I didn't engage you first! I definitely can be an a**hole at times on this site, but it's almost always reciprocal to someone else.

And I would say I was pretty cordial in my first few replies to you. You are the one that escalated into confrontational/condescending territory, with this reply:

This is just being confrontational for the sake of it. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. You're trying to make it look like I staked out some extreme position I never did. All for the purpose of...what? Is this a good-faith discussion?

You can take the accountability for this devolution of discussion in this thread. It's how almost every interaction with you goes.

Man, I was disagreeing with your blanket statement that seemingly suggested that confirmation bias and not liking when his stats go against our team is the only beef people have with him and his work.

And you act like I'm the condescending one and the one who derails...please reread your last paragraph and ask yourself if there is a productive way for me to respond to thwt

 

[bossram]

Man, I was disagreeing with your blanket statement that seemingly suggested that confirmation bias and not liking when his stats go against our team is the only beef people have with him and his work.

And you act like I'm the condescending one and the one who derails...please reread your last paragraph and ask yourself if there is a productive way for me to respond to thwt

Again, purely reciprocal. It's your approach, not mine. This isn't "disagreement". Disagreement would look like my post below - actually having a cordial discussion. And again, remember, I didn't reply to your post. You engaged first.

No, this is essentially how most people react to JFresh charts.

I view them as useful pieces of information, but to be interpreted at the viewer's discretion. I'm one of the bigger analytics proponents here, but even I don't completely "buy" that the models that attempt to isolate player performance like RAPM and HockeyViz's Isolated Impact are doing it that accurately. But they are interesting pieces of information and inform my opinions.

There is nothing in this post that is directly condescending or impolite to you. This is how I responded to you originally. Yet you come back with a completely bad-faith, condescending response.

The issue is on your part. It's a consistent theme.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Truly nobody else gives a shit about this esoteric debate we're now having. I will just drop this because you're being very selective in what you share to make me look unreasonable.

Again, purely reciprocal. It's your approach, not mine. This isn't "disagreement". Disagreement would look like my post below - actually having a cordial discussion. And again, remember, I didn't reply to your post. You engaged first.


There is nothing in this post that is directly condescending or impolite to you. This is how I responded to you originally. Yet you come back with a completely bad-faith, condescending response.

The issue is on your part. It's a consistent theme.

I had no problem with that part of the post obviously, it was reasonable.

It was where you said:

The consensus around here seems to be:

JFresh says Canuck is good = chart good
JFresh says Canucks is bad = chart bad

And I said,

You don't think this is a tad reductive?

JFresh basically sucks, but it's about what you do with the information he provides.

Many people these days on hfboards post a JFresh graphic and then brush off their hands like their point has been made.

But in terms of showing what a player's impact was on a specific team/what role he was playing when it's also reinforced by the eye-test?

Nobody thinks that having more information is bad. It's just in how it's used and how lightly it is presented.

So your answer to 'isn't this a tad reductive?'

Was:

No, this is essentially how most people react to JFresh charts.

I view them as useful pieces of information, but to be interpreted at the viewer's discretion. I'm one of the bigger analytics proponents here, but even I don't completely "buy" that the models that attempt to isolate player performance like RAPM and HockeyViz's Isolated Impact are doing it that accurately. But they are interesting pieces of information and inform my opinions.

And I then said:

This is not 'essentially how most people react to JFresh charts'.

Those sorts of things are best used to support the eye-test, or else to draw attention to irregularities that one can then suss out through further research/watching.

So when the consensus on Blueger is backed up by his JFresh chart, then people are going to nod and say, 'yup, checks out'.

Your scenario seems to dictate that having seen that chart we should now be screaming that Blueger is actually Mike Hoffman incarnate because if we don't love JFresh we must immediately oppose any info he provides?

And then you basically start pretending I'm crazy and you have no idea what I could possibly be ranting about.

This is my last comment on this subject. I hope we can get along better in the future.

 

[geebster]

JFresh charts are what they are. Neither of you believe they should be taken at face value, and no rational person should. Like any stat or point of datum it needs context. They aren't NHL player ratings. As for Blueger I reserve judgement til I see how we use him and how he fits what Tocchet wants to do. Love the contract though, def low risk.

 

[arttk]

Your post contains some inaccuracies.

Dickinson makes $2.65AAV. He does PK and he can play C. He was 3rd among Canucks forwards in SH ice time per game (not counting Richardson) two seasons ago. He was second among Chicago forwards in SH ice time per game (and 1st in faceoffs taken short handed) and their PK was better than ours. I'm not saying he's a good player but clearly doesn't "suck" defensively or "suck" on the PK.

Dickinson is a vanilla player who definitely wasn't/isn't worth his cap hit. For some reason his coaches like to play him throughout the lineup as if he is a swiss army knife. Maybe he should have been used the way Lammikko was used.

Blueger is coming off a bad season and Allvin seems to be expecting him to bounce back offensively. I'm just preparing myself to be disappointed. I don't doubt that Blueger is better on the PK than Dickinson but he's being paid $1.9M to do it. It's not that far from what Dickinson is making and given a choice I would prefer to keep Dickinson and keep the 2nd round pick is all I'm saying.

Yeah I got the contract wrong, somehow I thought he was making 3.25.

This Chicago team last season was designed for the tank, like very purposefully. Having seen Dickinson at center with us, I think it’s safe to say if you want your team to suck, play him at center and guess what Chicago wanted last season?

Bleugar is making 1.9M. I don’t think they are expecting much offense.

 

[dwarf]

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/2035112805778725037/FEC6291A4875383AFBE455404EE20B1FD50641E1/

I am not sure if he can see past his visor in this picture lol

 

[bossram]

And then you basically start pretending I'm crazy and you have no idea what I could possibly be ranting about.

This is my last comment on this subject. I hope we can get along better in the future.

Highly unlikely.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Highly unlikely.

Good attitude.

 

[F A N]

Yeah I got the contract wrong, somehow I thought he was making 3.25.

This Chicago team last season was designed for the tank, like very purposefully. Having seen Dickinson at center with us, I think it’s safe to say if you want your team to suck, play him at center and guess what Chicago wanted last season?

Bleugar is making 1.9M. I don’t think they are expecting much offense.

Considering we had Dries at C for many games, I don't see how Dickinson would be worst. To me, the team has bigger problems if keeping Dickinson as opposed to having Blueger is the difference between the team being good and sucking.

Now saying this, Blueger is an upgrade over Dries and I do like Blueger. The team can do a lot worse than having Blueger as the team's 4C and on the PK (although he might end up being the team's 3C). He's just overpaid for what he brings and his goal scoring post jaw injury is troubling. Hopefully he finds some chemistry with the team's wingers as he's a decent playmaker for a bottom 6 C.

 

[arttk]

Considering we had Dries at C for many games, I don't see how Dickinson would be worst. To me, the team has bigger problems if keeping Dickinson as opposed to having Blueger is the difference between the team being good and sucking.

Now saying this, Blueger is an upgrade over Dries and I do like Blueger. The team can do a lot worse than having Blueger as the team's 4C and on the PK (although he might end up being the team's 3C). He's just overpaid for what he brings and his goal scoring post jaw injury is troubling. Hopefully he finds some chemistry with the team's wingers as he's a decent playmaker for a bottom 6 C.

Well Dries makes 762K and yeah he’s not great. The fact you are comparing him with Dickinson speaks volume to how overpaid Dickinson is. You can ice a 4th line of min wage guys like Dries for the price of 1 Dickinson. I think we both know what is the better way to use cap.

Ideally Bluegar is a 4C and we get another 3C, no arguments from me on that. I think if the team is like top10 in pk and you have guys all over the lineup that can do that well, yeah you don’t need to spend 1.9M on a pk specialist. But this team is like f***ed up bad at PK so i think it makes sense for now to pay for a PK specialist.

 

[Shareefruck]

The "rather keep Dickinson" posts are puzzling considering how most of our random call-ups have played better than Dickinson.

Dickinson was arguably worse than Dries when they were both here, IMO.

I could understand not wanting Blueger at 1.9, but if the choice were between Dickinson and nothing, I'd take nothing, at this point, personally.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Considering we had Dries at C for many games, I don't see how Dickinson would be worst. To me, the team has bigger problems if keeping Dickinson as opposed to having Blueger is the difference between the team being good and sucking.

Now saying this, Blueger is an upgrade over Dries and I do like Blueger. The team can do a lot worse than having Blueger as the team's 4C and on the PK (although he might end up being the team's 3C). He's just overpaid for what he brings and his goal scoring post jaw injury is troubling. Hopefully he finds some chemistry with the team's wingers as he's a decent playmaker for a bottom 6 C.

His projected contract was two years $2MM per season. No, he is not overpaid.

 

[Diversification]

Wait, he’s from LATVIA?!

He moved to Minnesota (Shattuck St. Mary's) from Latvia when he was 15. His english is accent-less. Even more so than Wallinder.

 

[calnuck]

The "rather keep Dickinson" posts are puzzling considering how most of our random call-ups have played better than Dickinson.

Dickinson was arguably worse than Dries when they were both here, IMO.

I could understand not wanting Blueger at 1.9, but if the choice were between Dickinson and nothing, I'd take nothing, at this point, personally.

I don’t think there’s anything to argue about there tbh

 

[F A N]

Well Dries makes 762K and yeah he’s not great. The fact you are comparing him with Dickinson speaks volume to how overpaid Dickinson is. You can ice a 4th line of min wage guys like Dries for the price of 1 Dickinson. I think we both know what is the better way to use cap.

It's odd how you start off seemingly misrepresenting my point and then end with agreeing with me. The point I made is that we're once again overpaying for a defensive/PK specialist 4C who has had trouble scoring goals since his jaw injury. It's not a criticism of Blueger the player. As I said, he's a fine 4C. Like you said, we could ice a 4th line C who makes near the minimum and spend the money on a 3C (i.e. ~$1M AAV added to the 3C budget).

Ideally Bluegar is a 4C and we get another 3C, no arguments from me on that. I think if the team is like top10 in pk and you have guys all over the lineup that can do that well, yeah you don’t need to spend 1.9M on a pk specialist. But this team is like f***ed up bad at PK so i think it makes sense for now to pay for a PK specialist.

The point I was making is that I prefer just keeping Dickinson and a 2nd round pick. We moved Dickinson because he produced like a 4th line player and made $2.65M. Now we're paying $1.9M for a 4th line player. Even if Blueger is an upgrade defensively and on the PK, is he a 2nd round pick type of upgrade?

The "rather keep Dickinson" posts are puzzling considering how most of our random call-ups have played better than Dickinson.

Dickinson was arguably worse than Dries when they were both here, IMO.

I could understand not wanting Blueger at 1.9, but if the choice were between Dickinson and nothing, I'd take nothing, at this point, personally.

Why is it puzzling? The choice is Dickinson + 2nd round pick at $2.65M vs Blueger at $1.9M. Last season was a write off anyways.

His projected contract was two years $2MM per season. No, he is not overpaid.

We signed Dickinson to ~ what his projected contract as well. These contract projections reflect what the player is likely to command in salary negotiations and not what they are actually worth.

 

[Hit the post]

For a guy with his skillset and track record, the contract for Bluegar is just about right.

On the other hand the contract Benning handed out to Dickinson was an abomination. The Stars were set to lose him in the expansion draft to Seattle, so they off-loaded him on to the Canucks. Benning them promptly signed him to a three year contract, at close to $2.7m a season.

Of course as we all know, the Canucks were forced to cough up a second-rounder just to unload his contract on the Hawks, who also stuck the Canucks with a two year deal for Stillman.

I mean a second, a third and Stillman.....does it get any uglier than that?

But we wouldn't have moments like....

 

[DonnyNucker]

It's odd how you start off seemingly misrepresenting my point and then end with agreeing with me. The point I made is that we're once again overpaying for a defensive/PK specialist 4C who has had trouble scoring goals since his jaw injury. It's not a criticism of Blueger the player. As I said, he's a fine 4C. Like you said, we could ice a 4th line C who makes near the minimum and spend the money on a 3C (i.e. ~$1M AAV added to the 3C budget).



The point I was making is that I prefer just keeping Dickinson and a 2nd round pick. We moved Dickinson because he produced like a 4th line player and made $2.65M. Now we're paying $1.9M for a 4th line player. Even if Blueger is an upgrade defensively and on the PK, is he a 2nd round pick type of upgrade?



Why is it puzzling? The choice is Dickinson + 2nd round pick at $2.65M vs Blueger at $1.9M. Last season was a write off anyways.



We signed Dickinson to ~ what his projected contract as well. These contract projections reflect what the player is likely to command in salary negotiations and not what they are actually worth.

They are based on player comps. He signed for less $ and less term. How have you come up with his value ?

 

[Shareefruck]

Why is it puzzling? The choice is Dickinson + 2nd round pick at $2.65M vs Blueger at $1.9M. Last season was a write off anyways.

It's a negative value 2.65M boat anchor that wouldn't even go to use and that you'd want to get the hell rid of (+ the cap of at least a league minimum player that would need to actually fill that spot in the lineup + the inevitable waste-of-time headaches involved in coaches feeling compelled to experiment with him) vs. 1.9M that would actually go to effective use, either as an above average 4th line center or a barely serviceable stop-gap 3rd line center. Considering the cap situation, a 2nd round pick doesn't compel me to swallow that difference (which I do think is more sizeable than you seem to-- it's not just a trivial upgrade, IMO), personally.

I just don't think we're in a great position to receive cap dumps for picks.

 

[arttk]

It's odd how you start off seemingly misrepresenting my point and then end with agreeing with me. The point I made is that we're once again overpaying for a defensive/PK specialist 4C who has had trouble scoring goals since his jaw injury. It's not a criticism of Blueger the player. As I said, he's a fine 4C. Like you said, we could ice a 4th line C who makes near the minimum and spend the money on a 3C (i.e. ~$1M AAV added to the 3C budget).



The point I was making is that I prefer just keeping Dickinson and a 2nd round pick. We moved Dickinson because he produced like a 4th line player and made $2.65M. Now we're paying $1.9M for a 4th line player. Even if Blueger is an upgrade defensively and on the PK, is he a 2nd round pick type of upgrade?



Why is it puzzling? The choice is Dickinson + 2nd round pick at $2.65M vs Blueger at $1.9M. Last season was a write off anyways.



We signed Dickinson to ~ what his projected contract as well. These contract projections reflect what the player is likely to command in salary negotiations and not what they are actually worth.

Oh god this is too tiring.

I mean if I tell you we signed a center in UFA for 1.9M, the fact he makes 1.9M would suggest he doesn’t bring that much offense. That was my point, I don’t think Allvin expects much offense and he was brought here for a very specific purpose.

The Dickinson and Bleugae transaction happened a year apart, I don’t know why you are talking as if they decided one over another. They had cap trouble when Dermott went on IR. I have no idea how the cap works when it’s at that level so who knows if they would’ve pulled the trade off had Dermott not gotten injured.