Rumor: Canucks and Bruins Trade Talks

[TheDachKnight]

DeBrusk has outscored Virtanen in the past 3 seasons (twice by 20 points or more). Not even close value. Bruins deal DeBrusk as part of a package for an upgrade, not for a downgrade + draft pick. Awful suggestion.

I still think it’s closer than Boeser for Carlo. Virtanen outscored DeBrusk this season (more games but still) and plays a heavier game which Boston likes. I also didn’t say straight up. Both are 2nd/3rd line tweeners. I guess I value Virtanen more than you do and probably see DeBrusk as less than you see him as. Not as awful as you’re making it out to be but I get hyperbole is a regular thing on these forums.

Having said that, I get that trade doesn’t make sense. I think it’s likely something smaller occurs.

 

[wintersej]

Just so we're clear, do you think a package of the two could return Pettersson or Hughes, or was that a rhetorical statement you don't actually believe?

No one thinks they would return them.

 

[wintersej]

I still think it’s closer than Boeser for Carlo. Virtanen outscored DeBrusk this season and plays a heavier game which Boston likes. I also didn’t say straight up. Both are 2nd/3rd line tweeners. I guess I value Virtanen more than you do and probably see DeBrusk as less than you see him as. Not as awful as you’re making it out to be but I get hyperbole is a regular thing on these forums.

I don’t know if you get the athletic but this breakdown was enlightening: Re-sign or trade? Analyzing what the Canucks should do with Jake Virtanen

Key takeaways...

1) The Canucks bleed shots when Virtanen is on the ice and both the stats and the eye test point to him as giving away most of his offensive value on the other end.

2) Every forward Virtanen played with regularly produced better without Virtanen. Virtanen is like AA (who is getting non-tendered). Great speed and skill on the rush, not enough IQ to do much more than 1 and done in the o-zone.

In addition to all that, just comparing last season for DeBrusk and Virtanen is comparing DeBrusk’s worst season with Virtanen’s best season. Money here is that Virtanen never comes close to DeBrusk’s 27 goals in 68 games from a year ago. And money here is that DeBrusk will have better seasons than that as he finds consistency and maturity in his game.

 

[RandV]

DeBrusk + Carlo? Vancouver return package needs to have Pettersson or Hughes included.

I mean it was a very dumb offer you're replying to but this is just as bad here. Without getting to Vancouver's 2 franchise players we still have 3 players more valuable than those 2: Horvat, Miller, and Boeser. Carlo would probably be perfect for Vancouver but Boston needs him just as much so I don't see how that would work, especially if we're looking at Virtanen here.

Can't say the same for Debrusk though, he's RFA so no longer a cost controlled ELC asset for Boston and with 3 seasons at 40+ points basically rounding out into a winger somewhere between Tanner Pearson and Tyler Toffoli. The chance is always there to be something better but that can apply to any player this age, Virtanen included, and isn't very likely. Right now age and contract aside he's probably a slight upgrade on Pearson.

Getting to the point, I don't mean to trash him but just saying while I don't think it's likely but Virtanen + something reasonable should be something that could be discussed for Debrusk. Working the other way you could say Debrusk + something reasonable for Boeser as well. So getting back to the original post and playing in fantasy land if Rathbone was a RD and with both sides assessing he can step in and contribute in the NHL right away, which top tier college players often can, I'd suggest Boeser and Rathbone for Carlo and Debrusk could work. In reality though Vancouver just can't fill that right side D hole Boston would have.

 

[TheDachKnight]

I don’t know if you get the athletic but this breakdown was enlightening: Re-sign or trade? Analyzing what the Canucks should do with Jake Virtanen

Key takeaways...

1) The Canucks bleed shots when Virtanen is on the ice and both the stats and the eye test point to him as giving away most of his offensive value on the other end.

2) Every forward Virtanen played with regularly produced better without Virtanen. Virtanen is like AA (who is getting non-tendered). Great speed and skill on the rush, not enough IQ to do much more than 1 and done in the o-zone.

In addition to all that, just comparing last season for DeBrusk and Virtanen is comparing DeBrusk’s worst season with Virtanen’s best season. Money here is that Virtanen never comes close to DeBrusk’s 27 goals in 68 games from a year ago. And money here is that DeBrusk will have better seasons than that as he finds consistency and maturity in his game.

Legit didn’t know this. I viewed him as a tough, speedy power forward 2nd/3rd line tweener but I didn’t realize he was so poor defensively or that his hockey IQ was nearly that low. I was definitely wrong on his value. Thank you for posting this. Disregard my previous post as it reflects a now outdated and wrong view of mine.

 

[bbfan419]

What type of off ice problems we talking here..........if too severe ,than the Bruins are out.

I can't remember all the details, but there were a few things pointing to Virtanen being a problem.

 

[wintersej]

I mean it was a very dumb offer you're replying to but this is just as bad here. Without getting to Vancouver's 2 franchise players we still have 3 players more valuable than those 2: Horvat, Miller, and Boeser. Carlo would probably be perfect for Vancouver but Boston needs him just as much so I don't see how that would work, especially if we're looking at Virtanen here.

Can't say the same for Debrusk though, he's RFA so no longer a cost controlled ELC asset for Boston and with 3 seasons at 40+ points basically rounding out into a winger somewhere between Tanner Pearson and Tyler Toffoli. The chance is always there to be something better but that can apply to any player this age, Virtanen included, and isn't very likely. Right now age and contract aside he's probably a slight upgrade on Pearson.

Getting to the point, I don't mean to trash him but just saying while I don't think it's likely but Virtanen + something reasonable should be something that could be discussed for Debrusk. Working the other way you could say Debrusk + something reasonable for Boeser as well. So getting back to the original post and playing in fantasy land if Rathbone was a RD and with both sides assessing he can step in and contribute in the NHL right away, which top tier college players often can, I'd suggest Boeser and Rathbone for Carlo and Debrusk could work. In reality though Vancouver just can't fill that right side D hole Boston would have.

Tell me about when Pearson scored 27 goals in 68 games. Brock scores 26 in 69 and he is a God. DeBrusk does better and is almost as good as Tyler “scored 30 when Obama was president” Toffoli.

Ive been trying to be polite in this thread but the idea that Virtanen is close to value to DeBrusk is laughable to anyone that does more than sort point totals for one season.

DeBrusk has had crap assist numbers playing with pass pass pass Krejci and Backes/Kuhlman/my uncle Jeff/René Rancourt over the past several seasons it’s true. The Bruins 2nd line has been carrying around a replacement level player for years now. Can’t wait to see people talk about DeBrusk’s “breakout season” when he isn’t playing with a rotating list of anchors.

 

[Cogburn]

The Bruins 2nd line has been carrying around a replacement level player for years now. Can’t wait to see people talk about DeBrusk’s “breakout season” when he isn’t playing with a rotating list of anchors.

So has our third line.

I repeat, third line.

Where Virtanen plays.

With Sutter and Roussel, and occasionally Gaudette.

Even Backes has played better than Sutter and Roussel, because, how could he be worse? Hell even Rancourt would likely be better.

 

[wintersej]

So has our third line.

I repeat, third line.

Where Virtanen plays.

With Sutter and Roussel, and occasionally Gaudette.

Even Backes has played better than Sutter and Roussel, because, how could he be worse? Hell even Rancourt would likely be better.

There are counter arguments you can make, but why lie? Virtanen had almost 3 times as much ice time with Gaudette as Sutter this season.

 

[thefutures]

If we are trading Virtanen it's because we can't afford him on our 3rd line, so how the hell are we supposed to pay for Debrusk who will be more expensive? Easy answer, we can't so let's just stop discussing him in this rumor. The deal is obvious no point in arguing over a pick and a ready made prospect for Virtanen.

 

[Cogburn]

There are counter arguments you can make, but why lie? Virtanen had almost 3 times as much ice time with Gaudette as Sutter this season.

Did he? I've gone by the eye test, but even with Gaudette, that's not a player he can just leech off of (not that he or Debrusk do that).

 

[bearcountry17]

I still think it’s closer than Boeser for Carlo. Virtanen outscored DeBrusk this season (more games but still) and plays a heavier game which Boston likes. I also didn’t say straight up. Both are 2nd/3rd line tweeners. I guess I value Virtanen more than you do and probably see DeBrusk as less than you see him as. Not as awful as you’re making it out to be but I get hyperbole is a regular thing on these forums.

Having said that, I get that trade doesn’t make sense. I think it’s likely something smaller occurs.

Debrusk is 32nd in points for a LW since he broke into the league.

 

[NiftyCanuck19]

If we are trading Virtanen it's because we can't afford him on our 3rd line, so how the hell are we supposed to pay for Debrusk who will be more expensive? Easy answer, we can't so let's just stop discussing him in this rumor. The deal is obvious no point in arguing over a pick and a ready made prospect for Virtanen.

Yeah that's a good point. It's not likely to happen but that's why I think if a trade happened to get Debrusk it would make sense to involve Pearson (among other pieces) to free up the 2nd line LW spot and some cap. But again, idk if Canucks are willing to give up the other pieces that the Bruins would be asking for.

 

[RandV]

Tell me about when Pearson scored 27 goals in 68 games. Brock scores 26 in 69 and he is a God. DeBrusk does better and is almost as good as Tyler “scored 30 when Obama was president” Toffoli.

Ive been trying to be polite in this thread but the idea that Virtanen is close to value to DeBrusk is laughable to anyone that does more than sort point totals for one season.

DeBrusk has had crap assist numbers playing with pass pass pass Krejci and Backes/Kuhlman/my uncle Jeff/René Rancourt over the past several seasons it’s true. The Bruins 2nd line has been carrying around a replacement level player for years now. Can’t wait to see people talk about DeBrusk’s “breakout season” when he isn’t playing with a rotating list of anchors.

Sometimes for good or ill fans put to much focus on a player from a single number. Right now over the last 3 seasons we have:

Jake Debrusk:
70-16-27-43
68-27-15-42
65-19-16-35

Brock Boeser:
62-29-26-55 (no Pettersson this season)
69-26-30-56
57-16-29-45

If you look back on a players career there's always a few outlier seasons, we only have small sample sizes here but Debrusk scoring 27 goals doesn't fit the pattern and looks like an outlier total. And point total-wise we're looking at a 2nd liner vs a 1st liner here... though last season was a concern. Pearson isn't as direct a comparison here being older but in his 3 breakout seasons missing only 5 games he scored 15, 24, and 15 goals. 24 goals was the outlier, and it's taken him 3 seasons to come close with 21 in 69 games this season. Toffoli is similar with 73/23, 82/31, 63/16, 82/24. He's been a '30 goal scorer' but that season was an outlier.

Also speaking of Virtanen/Debrusk I was vague but when I say "something reasonable" I mean a tangible player/prospect like Adam Gaudette or Jack Rathbone. I'm not suggesting some dime a dozen prospect who many fans tend to overvalue on their own team like Jet Woo or Kole Lind.

 

[wintersej]

Did he? I've gone by the eye test, but even with Gaudette, that's not a player he can just leech off of (not that he or Debrusk do that).

Sorry to say “lie”, I have a one week old and sleep is spotty .

Natural stat trick has him with Guadette way more.

 

[Gargyn]

I’m a Bruins fan who can’t stand their own board. No fans are more biased and ridiculous. It’s so embarrassing.

 

[The don godfather]

Debrusk isn't getting traded for virtanen. Please end that. Virtanen value is a tab below him and we all know that.

 

[Oates2Neely]

Just so we're clear, do you think a package of the two could return Pettersson or Hughes, or was that a rhetorical statement you don't actually believe?

I was making a point.

 

[Mosby]

Maybe something around Virtanen and Ritchie?

 

[krutovsdonut]

Ive been trying to be polite in this thread but the idea that Virtanen is close to value to DeBrusk is laughable to anyone that does more than sort point totals for one season.

DeBrusk has had crap assist numbers playing with pass pass pass Krejci and Backes/Kuhlman/my uncle Jeff/René Rancourt over the past several seasons it’s true. The Bruins 2nd line has been carrying around a replacement level player for years now. Can’t wait to see people talk about DeBrusk’s “breakout season” when he isn’t playing with a rotating list of anchors.

you guys should really keep debrusk. he sounds really great. it is just too bad you have to deal with these unfair comparisons becase he's been tied to anchors on your second line with kreiji and is only getting 16 minutes with 2:30 mins of pp a game. that's rough and obviously downplays his true potential value in a straight up comparison to virtanen who is getting a golden chance to show his stuff playing 12 minutes a game on the canucks third line with a sophomore centre. once we adjust for that discrepancy, virtanen's current equivalent productivity is obviously misleading and debrusk is obviously much better because special bruins analytics. thank goodness you pointed that out. where would we be without the balanced viewpoint of bruins fans to always be objective.

hopefully you guys can move debrusk to the first line where he must surely belong and give him the full 3 minutes a game on the pp he richly deserves so he can more easily be compared with virtanen's inflated production.

meanwhile, we will humbly keep our inferior virtanen and apologize for having bothered you guys.

 

[wintersej]

you guys should really keep debrusk. he sounds really great. it is just too bad you have to deal with these unfair comparisons becase he's been tied to anchors on your second line with kreiji and is only getting 16 minutes with 2:30 mins of pp a game. that's rough and obviously downplays his true potential value in a straight up comparison to virtanen who is getting a golden chance to show his stuff playing 12 minutes a game on the canucks third line with a sophomore centre. once we adjust for that discrepancy, virtanen's current equivalent productivity is obviously misleading and debrusk is obviously much better because special bruins analytics. thank goodness you pointed that out. where would we be without the balanced viewpoint of bruins fans to always be objective.

hopefully you guys can move debrusk to the first line where he must surely belong and give him the full 3 minutes a game on the pp he richly deserves so he can more easily be compared with virtanen's inflated production.

meanwhile, we will humbly keep our inferior virtanen and apologize for having bothered you guys.

Yes sounds great!

 

[bruins4thecup65]

Virtanen has huge attitude and immature behavior problems off the ice plus he’s really not that good.

We have no interest in head cases.

Goodbye

 

[Blinny]

Virtanen has huge attitude and immature behavior problems off the ice plus he’s really not that good.

We have no interest in head cases.

Goodbye

But moving to a new place ACROSS the country might help wake him up. Immature behavior could be because he hasn’t left home and still has all his childhood friends. He hasn’t needed to grow up.

Personally, I believe that a change of scenery would be HUGE for him. I also think that planting him beside players like Chara and Bergeron could help him turn it around.

 

[Cogburn]

Sorry to say “lie”, I have a one week old and sleep is spotty .

Natural stat trick has him with Guadette way more.

Fair enough, no hard feelings there. It doesn't detract from either argument, and it's not like I thought you were deliberately escalating things. Just more ice time with better players made DeBrusk better, I'd say Krecji is still better then Gaudette after all.

Congratulations too, by the way!

 

[TheDachKnight]

I’m not as high on DeBrusk as Bruins fans seem to be but based on the tidbits that @wintersej shared earlier, Virtanen isn’t close to him. On physical tools and glancing at a scoresheet, it may be somewhat close, but when you look at Virtanen’s defense and how he affected his linemates’ play, it’s not even close. Just for shits and giggles, how far off in value are Juolevi and Lauzon?