Can we talk about Geno?
- Thread starter captain cubicle
- Start date
Speaking Moistly
What a terrible image.
I think it's fairly telling, 4 from the PP and Crosby involved in 5 (4 PP). Kobasew hasn't been involved in any, Jokinen has been involved in 3 (1 PP) and Crosby is still involved in a worrying amount of the offense, particularly since Malkin is the other guy who one would expect to be creating a lot.
radapex
Registered User
Then he shouldn't be making as much money as he is. He gets paid to be an elite player and produce regardless of who's on his line, just like Crosby.
So switch their wingers and see if that holds? If it does, then you should trade Malkin. After all, Sid didn't really NEED Kunitz and Guerin in 2009. His production was elite without them.
EDIT: How many I got Cappy to catch up to your current consumption level?
FDBluth
Registered User
His effort is there. His faceoffs are way better this year and he is trying to make things happen. He just can't produce with his linemates right now. That's just the way it is. I think he's actually playing well enough, given his circumstances. To expect him to do much more would be asking too much. It's not like he's "dogging" it.
Part of the problem is that Malkin's always going to be compared to Sid. He's paid the same (...err...until he gets paid more next year), so he's expected to produce at a relatively similar or at least respectably closer level. But he won't. He's just not as good of a player. He'll go through stretches where he doesn't put up points. Unless the team is totally focused around him, I don't think he'll be that $9.5 player as much as we'd like.
It's not really his fault (well...I guess it might be half his fault) that he's paid as much as he is. And the real problem with the whole thing is that when he's paid as much as he is, it's really difficult to actually make him worth that amount because it's that much harder to surround him with the right players. it's especially hard when you've got Sid and the Letangs, Dupuis' and Kunitz' on the team (of whom, by the way, owe Sid a pretty big one for playing a significant role in them landing their current deals).
I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but Malkin at $9.5 on this team doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. His contract severely handicaps who he can play with and he's really only worth that $9.5 if the players around him are the perfect complement. As such, we won't see the production that we should see from a $9.5 player. Sid's line has been nearly solely responsible for a sizeable chunk of wins this season on their own anyway, so it seems like it almost wouldn't make a difference if there was a $9.5 player on that second line or a $5 one.
I guess we'll have to see how him and Neal and whoever settle in before we can reallly make a final judgment. Even then, though, I don't think he's going to pick up to a 115-point-pace or greater this year. I think that's kind of his max, rather than his average.
Part of the problem is that Malkin's always going to be compared to Sid. He's paid the same (...err...until he gets paid more next year), so he's expected to produce at a relatively similar or at least respectably closer level. But he won't. He's just not as good of a player. He'll go through stretches where he doesn't put up points. Unless the team is totally focused around him, I don't think he'll be that $9.5 player as much as we'd like.
It's not really his fault (well...I guess it might be half his fault) that he's paid as much as he is. And the real problem with the whole thing is that when he's paid as much as he is, it's really difficult to actually make him worth that amount because it's that much harder to surround him with the right players. it's especially hard when you've got Sid and the Letangs, Dupuis' and Kunitz' on the team (of whom, by the way, owe Sid a pretty big one for playing a significant role in them landing their current deals).
I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but Malkin at $9.5 on this team doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. His contract severely handicaps who he can play with and he's really only worth that $9.5 if the players around him are the perfect complement. As such, we won't see the production that we should see from a $9.5 player. Sid's line has been nearly solely responsible for a sizeable chunk of wins this season on their own anyway, so it seems like it almost wouldn't make a difference if there was a $9.5 player on that second line or a $5 one.
I guess we'll have to see how him and Neal and whoever settle in before we can reallly make a final judgment. Even then, though, I don't think he's going to pick up to a 115-point-pace or greater this year. I think that's kind of his max, rather than his average.
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Darth Vitale
Dark Matter
I can understand why people frustrated with Geno might say this but it all stems from the same thing: people wanting Geno to be Sid. There are MANY players in the league who make big money, who cannot by themselves take a line, any line, and score lots of points. In fact Sid might be the ONLY player in the NHL who can do that. Getzlaf can't do it himself, Stamkos can't, Datysuk can't, Sedin can't... what Sid does (make OK players look a lot better than OK) is extremely rare. So technically by your logic, no one should get paid close to 8M a year or whatever, except Sid.
Geno is not Sid. Geno has a different body type, a different posture with the puck, different skating, different everything. Sid is a low COG, net-front Center. He's a bull. Malkin is an eagle. This means it's much easier for him to play with a wide variety of players and still be successful, because 90% of his points come from 5 feet away from the net. Geno is more of a perimeter C, as I said earlier today. His game is to skate and swoop through traffic, drawing people to him... and he's smart enough that he can see the lanes he's going to create before he creates them... he goes to the right spot, and if he has someone like Neal who can bury pucks with regularity, Geno is as unstoppable as Sid. But Geno can't make the guys he's playing with be in the right spot at the right time or be a good shooter. That's why Dupuis was always terrible on Malkin's wing. He's not smart enough to know where to be and his shot isn't good enough. Kunitz was a little different because he was the puck hound, not the shooter (except cleaning up the trash).
Geno needs someone like Neal (or any sniper with a high IQ) and when he has him, they can combine for huge point totals, as we saw a couple years ago. Bennett could work with Geno too potentially (they haven't played enough together to know for sure), but ultimately Neal is the guy. Take Neal away and Geno is less effective. That shouldn't mean we talk about trading him or that he's badly overpaid. Like I said, take away Perry and how much is Getzlaf going to dominate play and score points? Not that well, IMO. How's Kopitar going to look with Jussi and Kobasew as wingers? What about Backstrom? NONE of these guys can carry wingers the way Sid can.
People need to start seeing things in context and seeing that even when he struggles Geno's still PPG. That's pretty amazing. You can count on one hand the guys in this league who can do that consistently, and that's his low basically, not the norm (which is more like 1.5 PPG).
If you guys want to talk Geno that's fine but if it starts getting into trolls talking trade for Geno (and there are a couple trolls in here who will remain nameless), I'm shutting this down until such time as he's really doing something bad / causing problems.
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Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
- 55,744
- 46,758
My only concern about Geno is whether that shoulder of his is going to be an issue for the remainder of his career. It's early in the season, but his shooting percentage is pretty awful, and it's following on the heels of a horrible shooting percentage last season which was caused by a bum shoulder. He's a lot better shooter than his percentage suggests, which makes me wonder if his shoulder is (and ever will be) 100%.
Case closed as far as I'm concerned. He's been creating but the sum of the parts is greater than the whole on his line. If he had Neal in the line up for the past couple of weeks, he would have been fine.
LaughAtMyPain
'91 '92 '09 '16 '17
- Oct 26, 2013
- 403
- 4
I'm fairly okay with the way Malkin is currently playing. I remember a time when he was terrible at shootouts, didn't want to take faceoffs (because he was horrendous), and had defensive lapses that resulted in just as many goals as he scored. Even with him not clicking on all cylinders offensively, he is making a valiant effort at the other stuff.
Darth Vitale
Dark Matter
Funny, DV, the guy I really think he needs is someone like Malone (or to do what Talbot did in the playoffs). A guy like Neal, like Sykora, makes a Malkin line better by finishing. But, the thing that really makes it go, even absent a pure finisher, is having a puck retriever.
I've seen countless shifts this season where Geno's chased his own dump, created a turnover, and then looked for close puck support or someone driving the net (neither happens). So, he'd just dump the puck towards the opposite corner, and a lot of people here would say WTF, use your linemates.
Well, go back and watch the 2009 playoffs (or 2008 with Malone). Geno would do the EXACT same thing, and Talbot would just know when he was about to do it and be the first one there. Geno would swoop down to support, Talbot would get him the puck, and he'd look again the exploit a breakdown.
You know what's really sad. As much as I've done the Kulemin schtick, you could've had him for say Joe Morrow and a 1st and for 7.8M, just 300K more than Kunitz and Dupuis, put out a Kulemin-Malkin-Neal line.
I wonder how a Kulemin-Malkin-Neal line would compare to a Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis line.
Leaving that aside, Geno can make due with less. The only difference is that the 'less' is different than Sid's 'less'.
Sid's ideal linemate is a guy like Dustin Brown. Kunitz and Dupuis are lite versions.
For Geno, there's no ideal linemate. There's an ideal line. A puck retriever, Geno, and a finisher. They don't need to be the best (Talbot as retriever and Feds as finisher), but he needs that formula . . . IMO, that's why Jokinen-Malkin-Neal isn't going to work. It's going to be like Sully-Geno-Neal, a lot of cute little plays but nowhere near MMS or KMN.
IMO, this organization has done Malkin the greatest disservice by not recognizing the importance of a guy like Malone, Talbot, or Kunitz on his line. In fact, since the Pens won the cup, the only time Malkin was the Malkin of 2009 is when Kunitz was on his line (because Kunitz, while a little too north-south and not as good at the battles, is a puck retriever). Neal wasn't the difference maker, as evidenced by how the combo has looked without Kunitz.
I don't know if I buy that fully. Neal in, Bennett/Kobasew out. Would the puck retrieval be better? It's not like Sid's line, where everyone plays an equal part. The dynamic of an idea Malkin line is different. Lead puck retriever and guy who drives the net. Malkin supports and is the QB. Other guy finds shooting space.
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LaughAtMyPain
'91 '92 '09 '16 '17
- Oct 26, 2013
- 403
- 4
Darth Vitale
Dark Matter
See also: Kunitz, when Neal scored 80 and Malkin 109. I agree. Even Neal is not as effective when that puck hound type is not there.
All fair points. I think Kulemin would more or less be another Kunitz for Neal and Geno, and the line would be similarly productive. But that's probably not happening as Toronto continues to improve. But even without a real puck hound, Malkin and Neal can still put up a lot of points. Sometimes just having that finisher is enough for Geno.
When we're all healthy again I'd try
Dupuis - Sid - Bennett
Kunitz - Geno - Neal
Juice - Sutter - Kobachoo
...but we know that probably won't happen. Too logical.
Bang on. I've been concentrating on Malkin in many of the games and I've seen time after time in game after game that he's created opportunities for his line mates but his line mates are a couple of steps behind his thinking.
They are in those parts of the ice that the dime-a-dozen players go to. Your classy offensive type forwards can see the space before it appears and are in the space at the right time. Malkin needs those types of wingers (your Neal's, Bennett's, etc).
1. I'm not even sure Kunitz was a great fit, but he was better than any Geno's had since Talbot. He was a puck retriever, but a north-south guy to get the puck quickly for a bang-bang play. Guys like Malone and Talbot had a little more muck and were better battling on the boards and were a less less up tempo.
2. IMO, Kulemin would be the best of Talbot, Malone, and Kunitz. Talbot's innate sense of what Geno is going to do with the puck. Malone's size and ability to muck things up along the boards and otherwise to drive the net (making the wrist shot so lethal). Kunitz's speed. Odd thing is he's actually hurt and I've seen some Leafs fans suggesting he'd be moved. Whether or not it happens, Shero needs to make Kulemin his #1 free agency target this summer.
3. Those lines won't happen. Odd thing is I'm not even sure Sid would MISS Kunitz right now.
Two James Neals will help Malkin less than two Dunitzs help Sid. Malkin needs a retriever and a finisher. Malone and Sykora. Talbot and Feds as the poor man's version. Kunitz and Neal.
I'll wait until he at least plays a bit with someone other than 3rd/4th liners to really criticize.
He won a Conn Smythe playing with Talbot and Fedotenko. At $9mil, Malkin needs to do better regardless of who his linemates are.
And the same playoffs, he looked like **** with Sykora and Fedotenko, or did you forget? And, what do you think caused the 180 degree turn around?
Not rocket science (well, maybe it is): You give Geno a puck retriever, and the other winger doesn't matter. He turned Malone into a rich man. Made Talbot and Feds looks like the most dangerous playoff winger combo. KMN. BUT, you don't give Geno a puck retriever, and it doesn't matter how good the other winger is. Ever wonder why there's such a disparity? Look at Geno's career numbers when he's got a puck retriever. They're better than any other time, and it's not close. Neal isn't the key. A competent puck retriever is.
Zirakzigil
Global Moderator
This. Hes playing with a third wheel and a fourth liner. When Neal gets back he will get going.
Looks better with D'Agostini providing puck support.
That said, isn't it curious how the best line in hockey struggles against teams like this? This game pretty much settles the argument about whether linemates matter. Otherwise, I fully expect people to say if Sid's going to play with the big money wingers, then he's got to produce no matter who the opponent is.
Tender Rip
Wears long pants
I have been defending Geno's play so far this season. And I totally stand by that. Tonight however it was unacceptable. He wasn't alone to say the least, but fair is far. Really poor game by 71. Bad decisions, low compete, not a positive factor at any point outside of the PP assist. That's not good enough when you play a critical role in two goals against.
radapex
Registered User
Two goals directly off Malkin turnovers, and the empty netter on a Letang turnover.
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
his linemates blow, but at some point he has to play like one of the best players in the world. I'm sick and tired of his lazy turnovers that always end up in our own net.
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