cphabs
The 2 stooges….
- Dec 21, 2012
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Prospect Info: Cale Fleury
- Thread starter LastWordArmy
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le_sean
Registered User
- Oct 21, 2006
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He was even great when they reacquired him years after at the age of 40. He helped completely turn around a PP that was in shambles.
1909
Registered User
- Jul 6, 2016
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Injured. Problems with his face and-or eye. Remember the two pucks he took in the face ? Seems long and complicated to heel.
David Suzuki
Registered User
cphabs
The 2 stooges….
- Dec 21, 2012
- 7,701
- 5,167
Last I knew Schneider was working with Shanahan and NHL player safety. The guy is incredibly well respected. He was tough, smart, mobile, and feisty. Romanov could be the next Schneider like player on our team. That’s a very good thing BYW!
cphabs
The 2 stooges….
- Dec 21, 2012
- 7,701
- 5,167
Vachon23
Registered User
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
montreal
Go Habs Go
when you factor in that Fleury started the season at 19, had some injury problems, he's on pace for 30 pts which is very impressive for a low scoring team like Laval. He needs some work on his defensive play but clearly he's one of our better prospects.
CoopersFalls
Director of Armchair Operations
I have a good feeling about Fleury after seeing how well he transitioned into the A this year. Plays the game the right way and looks like he may be able to contribute offensively a bit.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
Yes he would. A coach don't affect development that much. Development is 90% on the player and their hunger to be better. Sly was just not a good coach that resulted into wins. Maybe this affected team moral and had some affect on development.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
Fleury is another Juulsen in terms of playing a smart reliable game. Fringe top 4D and hard to predict how good they will get. Fleury is better than Lernout that's for sure.
Is Fleury the pick we used for the Beaulieu return? Or was that Walford?
Fleury is a better bet than Lernout to make the NHL, I agree. Third pairing upside? Currently 5th on the talent depth chart at RD after Weber, Petry, Brook, Juulsen?
Beaulieu's return was a 3rd rounder, Walford it is.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
And Walford was picked before Fleury in the 3rd round. 2018 draft was solid... Poehling, Brook, Fleury, Primeau to name 4! And no real for sure busts yet between Ikonen, Walford, Tyszka.
Poehling: Tracking to be a middle 2C
Brook: Tracking to be a top 4D
Fleury: Tracking to be a fringe top 4D or solid bottom pairing guy
Primeau: Who knows but he looks promising. Could be a NHL starter but we have to wait.
Ikonen: Middle 6 winger maybe.
Walford and Tyszka: Maybe bottom pairing guys. I'm not expecting them to surprise at this stage.
A very good draft year it appears.
Thing is, I didn't expect a whole lot of Ikonen and Tyszka due to injuries possibily derailing their developpment. Both of them came back looking stronger than ever! Walford, I wasn't high on him because of his offensive ability but right now he is opening it up, something like 5 points in 2 games this weekend. His defensive game is excellent. I'm really please with the progession so far, we were drafting late too.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
Personally, I'm higher on Ikonen than I am with Tyszka. We agree on Walford. He's another Lernout in terms of potential.
Stive Morgan
Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.
I'm actually still pretty high on Tyszka. People forget how close he was to Brook before the injury (obviously the gap is wider now)
Love how mobile he is. Add to that his size and skills.. Very intriguing prospect.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
I believe he has the best skill package of any of our D prospects. Theres just everything you want there.... but hes injured often and he leaves you wanting more on the ice.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
I didn't consider Tyszka close to Brook personally. Brook played hurt last year and has taken off this year now that he is 100% healthy. Brook has been one step ahead of Tyszka every step along the way in their CHL years.
Not saying I don't like Tyszka but it's hard to say at this stage. He too was facing injuries. 16 pts in 21 games with 5 goals as a 19 year old. He will be interesting to watch and maybe the Habs let him play another CHL year at age 20 next year.
Le Barron de HF
Justin make me proud
Yeah, I recall there being talk last year among the "big 3" WHL D's but for me it's never been close. Brook has always been the guy with the best upside.
montreal
Go Habs Go
that's one take, not sure how you came up with the 90% number, I couldn't say what % it is, but having had good and bad coaches I strongly believe that they can have a major impact on a player. Wins are just a team stat so I don't relate that to prospect development. Sure it's great to win, it's great to see them get playoff experience but in the end it comes down to how much can they improve on their weaknesses, how much can they continue to progress and confidence as hockey is so much a mental game.
Fleury isn't another Juulsen in terms of playing a smart reliable game. They are opposites imo, Fleury brings more offense, has questions on his defensive play, Juulsen excels on defense, has questions on offense. In terms of just AHL only so both are small sample sizes.
It's hard to say, Fleury has the tools to be very good if everything broke right for him, I think he needs to sure up his defensive play and if so he could be a top 4 D, if not then a bottom pairing D. I just don't want him rushed, spend most of next year in Laval and see how it goes, if he continues to improve and really starts to excel then look to call him up later in the season.
You always have to worry when guys miss a lot of key development time at the early to mid stages. That said though you just have to wait and see over time how they do, if they stay healthy or not, if they can get back on track or not.
I like both Tyszka and Ikonen as decent prospects that could surprise down the road. I don't give them high chances to be solid NHLers, which is why I wouldn't consider them top 10 prospects in the Habs system but surely in that 10-15 range. Ikonen clearly has skill but has major issues to overcome in terms of physical tools which in today's NHL is a lot as you have to have the speed/skating or be highly skilled in some area to overcome.
Tyszka has the tools you want for today's NHL defensmen, just needs to stay healthy and improve a good bit in his own end (talking from last season, haven't seen him yet this year). He's got NHL size, skating, speed, mobility, but also plays with confidence to pinch in and his skating/speed/mobility help bail him out most of the time. So the big question will be when he turns pro how much can he progress. I really can't wait to see him work with Bouchard and Dainel Jacob either next year or the following.
Habs Halifax
Loyal Habs Fan
The 90% is a number out of my ass but development is mostly on the player. A team and coach can only do so much. Call me sensitive but this Habs can't develop prospects is not something I believe in. I was not a fan of Sly but he was handed one of the worse groups of prospects we had in decades! He is just a bad coach. If you want me to change my stance... show me who Sly failed at developing? 8 top 100 picks from 08-11 is terrible and will result in terrible development. I don't know any coach that could of turned Leblanc, Tinordi, McCarron, Scherbak into NHL players. I think Bouchard will yield a better group of NHL ready prospects but he is also getting one of the best group of prospects we had in decades.
Fleury vs Juulsen. I agree. I was talking more about value and were they could slot in the line-up. I think Juulsen is more NHL ready and has already shown ability to play top 4D but we have to wait on Fleury
montreal
Go Habs Go
A team and coach can only do so much, to that I agree, but that doesn't mean that it's 90% on the player as I bet if you asked a number of posters that played at say some level of organized hockey in their teenage years will tell you how much of an impact a good or really good coach had on them or vice versa. Granted I can only speak to what I know from playing in the USHS, and interviewing players, coaches, scouts from the NCAA and CHL over the years (though that was a long time ago)
So some will say development and coaching has a big impact, others will say it's on the player mostly. Of course you can't turn a Crisp or DLO kind of player into a Crosby, but you can make them better, put them in positions to succeed, know how to stroke their confidence and vs making them doubt themselves by taking them off the scoring lines and PP to show them who's boss. It's a debate that will never end, we can only speculate as to what impact it has.
With coaching my example would be how some teams just take off after a coaching change after sucking for much of the year. If they are the same team and they sucked, why are the so much better under a different coach? Sure there's a ton of factors, maybe they gave up on said coach, I'm sure that happens a lot, but at other times perhaps it's due to the coach being that much better. The reason why I say this is listening to coaches talk hockey over the years. Some you can just hear it when they talk, they know what they are talking about, others you wonder how they got the job.
As for Lefebvre, he had 5 1st round picks over 6 years that played more then half a season for him and every single one of them regressed under him or at the very least didn't progress in the case of Beaulieu and Scherbak. Now was that more due to bad picks or did his poor decisions impact said players. Do you think a good way to develop a skilled player that say in his rookie year is one of the teams best players and then the next year under a new coach you take him off the top line and PP. Or moving said player to a brand new much tougher position mid season while just returning from missing most of the season?
To me it's the poor decisions that at least made matters worse. We can never know if any of them would turn into something better or not. It's possible that they were just bad picks, but you are comparing a head scout with a proven track record of success with 2 NHL teams vs a head coach that when first hired had NEVER been a head coach before at any level (not counting say beer leagues). So in terms of logic, what's more likely, the guy with the proven track record is less at fault then the guy that with no experience or track record is more at fault.
Of course the players, management, NHL coaching, all have a hand in why these players regressed. Who's to say what impact calling them up at 20 years old to play in the NHL wasn't a bigger mistake then anything Timmins or Lefebvre did. But it's just as easy to say that these players just didn't have what it takes and that's very likely the biggest reason, we just can't know. For me in the end I do trust Timmins more then Lefebvre, I watched almost every AHL game each year and I didn't agree with many things that had they been done differently I can only guess as to if it would have made any difference or not. Then there's rushing these kids, to which I have spoken out against repeatedly as I am very much against rushing any 19, 20 year old to the NHL unless they show they can dominate the AHL for at least most of the season.
As for Bouchard, so far he hasn't had much in the way of prospects, only Fleury is a top 10 prospect imo. Next year that looks to change unless several kids get rushed to the NHL. The only thing I can say so far is that for the most part I really like the decisions he makes, I like what I hear from him when I listen to him talk hockey. I like the fact that he's got guys that struggled the past few years in the AHL that are now playing their best hockey to date in McCarron, Audette. The one problem i've had with him was how he overused his former players mostly Alain, but he's adjusted going from playing him on the 2nd line to the 3rd and now the 4th.
Only time will tell what Bouchard can do for these kids, and sitting behind a computer I can never know what goes on behind the scenes as to what is said to these kids, what practices are like, what goes on in their heads. I can't know what impact confidence has on these kids, what impact being a top player on the team and then a new coach puts you on a checking line and what that would do to each player since each will handle things differently. There are so many factors, variables that it's impossible for any of us to really know what impact coaching, development have, or what rushing vs not rushing kids has vs each prospect since each is there own man. We can only guess, offer opinions, discuss.
At the end of the day it's really about entertainment in discussion, as clearly others on this board take things way to personal when they get opinions they don't agree with and thus end up stalking, insulting, etc... and that's not what this place is about. We should all be free to say however crazy our opinions on subjects are. Clearly not talking about you but others that are too aggressive or get too worked up because one poster says this coach isn't good at his job or this gm isn't good at his job, etc...
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