Prospect Info: Cale Fleury

[Habs Halifax]

A team and coach can only do so much, to that I agree, but that doesn't mean that it's 90% on the player as I bet if you asked a number of posters that played at say some level of organized hockey in their teenage years will tell you how much of an impact a good or really good coach had on them or vice versa. Granted I can only speak to what I know from playing in the USHS, and interviewing players, coaches, scouts from the NCAA and CHL over the years (though that was a long time ago)

So some will say development and coaching has a big impact, others will say it's on the player mostly. Of course you can't turn a Crisp or DLO kind of player into a Crosby, but you can make them better, put them in positions to succeed, know how to stroke their confidence and vs making them doubt themselves by taking them off the scoring lines and PP to show them who's boss. It's a debate that will never end, we can only speculate as to what impact it has.

With coaching my example would be how some teams just take off after a coaching change after sucking for much of the year. If they are the same team and they sucked, why are the so much better under a different coach? Sure there's a ton of factors, maybe they gave up on said coach, I'm sure that happens a lot, but at other times perhaps it's due to the coach being that much better. The reason why I say this is listening to coaches talk hockey over the years. Some you can just hear it when they talk, they know what they are talking about, others you wonder how they got the job.

As for Lefebvre, he had 5 1st round picks over 6 years that played more then half a season for him and every single one of them regressed under him or at the very least didn't progress in the case of Beaulieu and Scherbak. Now was that more due to bad picks or did his poor decisions impact said players. Do you think a good way to develop a skilled player that say in his rookie year is one of the teams best players and then the next year under a new coach you take him off the top line and PP. Or moving said player to a brand new much tougher position mid season while just returning from missing most of the season?

To me it's the poor decisions that at least made matters worse. We can never know if any of them would turn into something better or not. It's possible that they were just bad picks, but you are comparing a head scout with a proven track record of success with 2 NHL teams vs a head coach that when first hired had NEVER been a head coach before at any level (not counting say beer leagues). So in terms of logic, what's more likely, the guy with the proven track record is less at fault then the guy that with no experience or track record is more at fault.

Of course the players, management, NHL coaching, all have a hand in why these players regressed. Who's to say what impact calling them up at 20 years old to play in the NHL wasn't a bigger mistake then anything Timmins or Lefebvre did. But it's just as easy to say that these players just didn't have what it takes and that's very likely the biggest reason, we just can't know. For me in the end I do trust Timmins more then Lefebvre, I watched almost every AHL game each year and I didn't agree with many things that had they been done differently I can only guess as to if it would have made any difference or not. Then there's rushing these kids, to which I have spoken out against repeatedly as I am very much against rushing any 19, 20 year old to the NHL unless they show they can dominate the AHL for at least most of the season.

As for Bouchard, so far he hasn't had much in the way of prospects, only Fleury is a top 10 prospect imo. Next year that looks to change unless several kids get rushed to the NHL. The only thing I can say so far is that for the most part I really like the decisions he makes, I like what I hear from him when I listen to him talk hockey. I like the fact that he's got guys that struggled the past few years in the AHL that are now playing their best hockey to date in McCarron, Audette. The one problem i've had with him was how he overused his former players mostly Alain, but he's adjusted going from playing him on the 2nd line to the 3rd and now the 4th.

Only time will tell what Bouchard can do for these kids, and sitting behind a computer I can never know what goes on behind the scenes as to what is said to these kids, what practices are like, what goes on in their heads. I can't know what impact confidence has on these kids, what impact being a top player on the team and then a new coach puts you on a checking line and what that would do to each player since each will handle things differently. There are so many factors, variables that it's impossible for any of us to really know what impact coaching, development have, or what rushing vs not rushing kids has vs each prospect since each is there own man. We can only guess, offer opinions, discuss.

At the end of the day it's really about entertainment in discussion, as clearly others on this board take things way to personal when they get opinions they don't agree with and thus end up stalking, insulting, etc... and that's not what this place is about. We should all be free to say however crazy our opinions on subjects are. Clearly not talking about you but others that are too aggressive or get too worked up because one poster says this coach isn't good at his job or this gm isn't good at his job, etc...

There is a lot that goes in to development.. no doubt about it. I like to break it down into point form to keep it more simple

- How the team provides training programs and supports the player before they turn pro
- What depth does the player get surrounded with (before AHL and when they turn Pro)? A bottom AHL team does not help development cause all talented players need to play with talent.
- Is the coach approachable and is he respectable? Sometimes if there are communications problems, this affects attitude.
- How hungry is the player to get better. Some need to get pushed, some push them selfs. It's up to the coach to recognize the difference and not all players are the same.

At the end of the day, a coach can only do so much. It's like a parent, you can't force things. You have to listen and ensure you facilitate the proper environment for success. At the end of the day, the kid is who they are and they dictate how hungry they are to be successful at what they want to do.

You can tell McCarron all you want that you want him to be a physical 3rd line center but in his mind, he wants to be an offensive 2nd line center. I think he is going to learn the hard way that you need to learn how to adapt to a role if you want to make the NHL. Look at Agostino... offensive player in the AHL but knows his NHL role very well.

 

[cphabs]

Yes he would. A coach don't affect development that much. Development is 90% on the player and their hunger to be better. Sly was just not a good coach that resulted into wins. Maybe this affected team moral and had some affect on development.

This is a good one LMAO!

 

[WinterLion]

Sly was a bad coach, no doubt. However, the individual player is the single most important person in that players development by a long shot.

 

[ottawa]

Sly was a bad coach, no doubt. However, the individual player is the single most important person in that players development by a long shot.

I agree, a player has the greatest impact but not by much...a coach needs to put the player in a position to succeed by putting him on the ice in the right situations, helping him improve on his weaknesses and helping him perfect his strengths.

How many young NHL players have we seen be mismanaged/misused by Therrien alone?

 

[WinterLion]

This has been a great year for Fleury. He has looked good in Laval every time I saw him. He has made the jump with ease... now take the next step kid!

 

[WinterLion]

I agree, a player has the greatest impact but not by much...a coach needs to put the player in a position to succeed by putting him on the ice in the right situations, helping him improve on his weaknesses and helping him perfect his strengths.

How many young NHL players have we seen be mismanaged/misused by Therrien alone?

Naw, I think that gets overblown around here. Look at how many "poorly treated" players go on and are about the same on another team...

 

[Runner77]

...There are so many factors, variables that it's impossible for any of us to really know what impact coaching, development have, or what rushing vs not rushing kids has vs each prospect since each is there own man. We can only guess, offer opinions, discuss.

At the end of the day it's really about entertainment in discussion, as clearly others on this board take things way to personal when they get opinions they don't agree with and thus end up stalking, insulting, etc... and that's not what this place is about. We should all be free to say however crazy our opinions on subjects are. Clearly not talking about you but others that are too aggressive or get too worked up because one poster says this coach isn't good at his job or this gm isn't good at his job, etc...

If I had a dollar ...

 

[cphabs]

There is a lot that goes in to development.. no doubt about it. I like to break it down into point form to keep it more simple

- How the team provides training programs and supports the player before they turn pro
- What depth does the player get surrounded with (before AHL and when they turn Pro)? A bottom AHL team does not help development cause all talented players need to play with talent.
- Is the coach approachable and is he respectable? Sometimes if there are communications problems, this affects attitude.
- How hungry is the player to get better. Some need to get pushed, some push them selfs. It's up to the coach to recognize the difference and not all players are the same.

At the end of the day, a coach can only do so much. It's like a parent, you can't force things. You have to listen and ensure you facilitate the proper environment for success. At the end of the day, the kid is who they are and they dictate how hungry they are to be successful at what they want to do.

You can tell McCarron all you want that you want him to be a physical 3rd line center but in his mind, he wants to be an offensive 2nd line center. I think he is going to learn the hard way that you need to learn how to adapt to a role if you want to make the NHL. Look at Agostino... offensive player in the AHL but knows his NHL role very well.

“Sly” will never be around another NHL prospect again IMO. Not in a official capacity anyways.

 

[Runner77]

“Sly” will never be around another NHL prospect again IMO. Not in a official capacity anyways.

That's cause everybody else knows there's nothing sly about him. The incompetent arrogant sap you see is what you get.

 

[26Mats]

Karl Alzner says he was really impressed with Cale Fleury when he was in Laval.

Said he's learning the game quickly and able to do a lot of subtle things good defensive dmen do at a young age.

 

[Habs Halifax]

“Sly” will never be around another NHL prospect again IMO. Not in a official capacity anyways.

Sly was a bad coach. With prospects or AHL players. I don't blame the development on him. He had one of the worse group of prospects in a decade filtering through his AHL teams.

 

[montreal]

There is a lot that goes in to development.. no doubt about it. I like to break it down into point form to keep it more simple

- How the team provides training programs and supports the player before they turn pro
- What depth does the player get surrounded with (before AHL and when they turn Pro)? A bottom AHL team does not help development cause all talented players need to play with talent.
- Is the coach approachable and is he respectable? Sometimes if there are communications problems, this affects attitude.
- How hungry is the player to get better. Some need to get pushed, some push them selfs. It's up to the coach to recognize the difference and not all players are the same.

At the end of the day, a coach can only do so much. It's like a parent, you can't force things. You have to listen and ensure you facilitate the proper environment for success. At the end of the day, the kid is who they are and they dictate how hungry they are to be successful at what they want to do.

You can tell McCarron all you want that you want him to be a physical 3rd line center but in his mind, he wants to be an offensive 2nd line center. I think he is going to learn the hard way that you need to learn how to adapt to a role if you want to make the NHL. Look at Agostino... offensive player in the AHL but knows his NHL role very well.

we don't know what programs the team provides to these kids other then development camps. Though it's troubling when guys like McCarron, Hillis have to hire their own skating coach in the off-season.

as for depth, our AHL teams have had Terry, one of the best players in the AHL, Taormina who the year before he came over was voted AHL defensemen of the year, plus a solid group of vets for the AHL. Barberio, Redmond, St-Denis, Hensick, St. Pierre, Blunden, Drewiske, Tangradi, Holloway, Gelinas, etc..

we don't know what the coach is like with his players, which is a big part of why we can only guess as to why goes on and why any of us could be very wrong since there's so much going on that we don't know about.

For sure it has to be a player that has the will to compete. If they don't want to work for it, no coach will likely get the best out of them. I'm sure many kids have gone this route, Kristo, Fischer, etc... who knows what would have happened if they worked harder. One reason I really liked listening to Guy Boucher talk hockey was his background in sports psychology and how in today's world you have to treat kids differently then you did 15-20 years ago. (this was back when he was in Hamilton and he was talking about the CHL i believe)

So for sure a coach can only do so much, for me as I've said I look at the decisions they make cause I don't have much more to go on. It's a valid point if McCarron thinks he's a scorer and management doesn't that some will have to learn the hard way. The problem with that is McCarron was a scorer, he started out great and then was called up and got the yo-yo and never was the same. Now did putting him with ECHLers help him to be a better player? Would it have mattered much last year had he been put in a better position?

I look at these draft picks and no matter how poorly ranked you or others consider them, they are still 1st round picks from a head scout with a proven track record. So when I see every single one of them regressing badly, or not progressing at all, then to me that's a major red flag. Yes there are lots of variables as to why and lots of different people to blame as I've said countless times it's everyone involved holds some share. If it were one or two, sure that would certainly make it much more debatable at least to me as to who is more at fault, but all of them? There's just no way I can accept that a head coach that was never a head coach before and all the sudden after years of solid development under different coaches we can't develop shit?

Everyone will believe what they want, I've been harassed many times over the years because of my opinion which I've stated could easily be wrong but either way it's over now and we have gone in a different direction and hopefully it leads to better results which at the end of the day even to the people that don't like my opinions or me personally for strongly suggesting said opinions, it should be about hoping the Habs find success as pointing the finger doesn't change anything. (not directed at you of course)

Naw, I think that gets overblown around here. Look at how many "poorly treated" players go on and are about the same on another team...

I see hockey as a simple game, yes some players are quicker, better skaters, smarter, understand the game better, work harder, have skill levels off the charts, etc.. but at the end of the day I look at confidence and once you mess with it, it can be a very hard thing to get back. Some players can overcome struggles but when you look at prospects, many of these kids were the best in their leagues as kids or close to it. Many likely had their asses kissed, told how good they were, etc.. They go to the CHL, or USHS/USHL, NCAA, they stand out they get drafted in the 1st round or wherever and after a couple of years they go to the AHL. Up until then they are used to being the man or one of, they are used to being told how good they are, they are used to being one of the best players on the ice for the most part.

So when they go to the AHL and aren't put in a good position, say they are moved to a new position that's much tougher mid season when returning from injury or taken off the top line and PP after producing well. For many of them it's likely their first taste of real failure at a time when they thought they were making a career, to realize the dream they had since they were young kids. For some I would think it can be soul crushing and very hard to bounce back from. So to me when you don't handle these kids well and they fail, when you mess with their confidence, it's no wonder that they struggle to get back on track. Now some do, since how often do we hear about a player being traded and then doing well because he just needed a change of scene or a wake up call. But i think it's understandable why others never bounce back. Now in some cases of course you can say the player just never had it, but without knowing what's going on in their head, what the coaches are telling them, etc... it's so hard to know.

 

[Simarino]

but at the end of the day I look at confidence and once you mess with it, it can be a very hard thing to get back.

I just hope that they provide these kids the help of good sports psychologist , like you said confidence can be very fragile and once you've lost it, having the right person helping you can do wonders. Im a golf professional and i can tell you that when i surrounded my self of a sports psychologist it took my game to a whole new level, but its not easy for young guys who pretty much always have success in their lives to be humble enough to ask for help and in a very macho world like hockey on top of that. You can practice your slapshot and your skating as much as you want but if you dont have any confidence, you'll never be a good hockey player.

 

[montreal]

I just hope that they provide these kids the help of good sports psychologist , like you said confidence can be very fragile and once you've lost it, having the right person helping you can do wonders. Im a golf professional and i can tell you that when i surrounded my self of a sports psychologist it took my game to a whole new level, but its not easy for young guys who pretty much always have success in their lives to be humble enough to ask for help and in a very macho world like hockey on top of that. You can practice your slapshot and your skating as much as you want but if you dont have any confidence, you'll never be a good hockey player.

well said. I would think the Habs provide this but I don't know. The only person I've really heard talk about was Boucher since he had a degree in it.

 

[WinterLion]

we don't know what programs the team provides to these kids other then development camps. Though it's troubling when guys like McCarron, Hillis have to hire their own skating coach in the off-season.

as for depth, our AHL teams have had Terry, one of the best players in the AHL, Taormina who the year before he came over was voted AHL defensemen of the year, plus a solid group of vets for the AHL. Barberio, Redmond, St-Denis, Hensick, St. Pierre, Blunden, Drewiske, Tangradi, Holloway, Gelinas, etc..

we don't know what the coach is like with his players, which is a big part of why we can only guess as to why goes on and why any of us could be very wrong since there's so much going on that we don't know about.

For sure it has to be a player that has the will to compete. If they don't want to work for it, no coach will likely get the best out of them. I'm sure many kids have gone this route, Kristo, Fischer, etc... who knows what would have happened if they worked harder. One reason I really liked listening to Guy Boucher talk hockey was his background in sports psychology and how in today's world you have to treat kids differently then you did 15-20 years ago. (this was back when he was in Hamilton and he was talking about the CHL i believe)

So for sure a coach can only do so much, for me as I've said I look at the decisions they make cause I don't have much more to go on. It's a valid point if McCarron thinks he's a scorer and management doesn't that some will have to learn the hard way. The problem with that is McCarron was a scorer, he started out great and then was called up and got the yo-yo and never was the same. Now did putting him with ECHLers help him to be a better player? Would it have mattered much last year had he been put in a better position?

I look at these draft picks and no matter how poorly ranked you or others consider them, they are still 1st round picks from a head scout with a proven track record. So when I see every single one of them regressing badly, or not progressing at all, then to me that's a major red flag. Yes there are lots of variables as to why and lots of different people to blame as I've said countless times it's everyone involved holds some share. If it were one or two, sure that would certainly make it much more debatable at least to me as to who is more at fault, but all of them? There's just no way I can accept that a head coach that was never a head coach before and all the sudden after years of solid development under different coaches we can't develop ****?

Everyone will believe what they want, I've been harassed many times over the years because of my opinion which I've stated could easily be wrong but either way it's over now and we have gone in a different direction and hopefully it leads to better results which at the end of the day even to the people that don't like my opinions or me personally for strongly suggesting said opinions, it should be about hoping the Habs find success as pointing the finger doesn't change anything. (not directed at you of course)



I see hockey as a simple game, yes some players are quicker, better skaters, smarter, understand the game better, work harder, have skill levels off the charts, etc.. but at the end of the day I look at confidence and once you mess with it, it can be a very hard thing to get back. Some players can overcome struggles but when you look at prospects, many of these kids were the best in their leagues as kids or close to it. Many likely had their asses kissed, told how good they were, etc.. They go to the CHL, or USHS/USHL, NCAA, they stand out they get drafted in the 1st round or wherever and after a couple of years they go to the AHL. Up until then they are used to being the man or one of, they are used to being told how good they are, they are used to being one of the best players on the ice for the most part.

So when they go to the AHL and aren't put in a good position, say they are moved to a new position that's much tougher mid season when returning from injury or taken off the top line and PP after producing well. For many of them it's likely their first taste of real failure at a time when they thought they were making a career, to realize the dream they had since they were young kids. For some I would think it can be soul crushing and very hard to bounce back from. So to me when you don't handle these kids well and they fail, when you mess with their confidence, it's no wonder that they struggle to get back on track. Now some do, since how often do we hear about a player being traded and then doing well because he just needed a change of scene or a wake up call. But i think it's understandable why others never bounce back. Now in some cases of course you can say the player just never had it, but without knowing what's going on in their head, what the coaches are telling them, etc... it's so hard to know.

I appreciate your opinion and all your comments over the many many years, but I feel like you put too much weight into the head coaches. It is just one factor out of so so many factors for these kids. Any athelete has had to deal with a coach that they didn't jive with... the best atheletes learn how to make the best of it. The rest, well they probably just weren't that good....

 

[Mrb1p]

Tbh, Fleury, Romanov, Brook, Juulsen and Tsyzka all have incredible toolboxes. I love the way they draft Ds, good skaters, good passers, big bodies, big shots, etc. Exciting time. None of that small or simple mind or slow ass. Smart, fast, big and skilled.

I maintain that if everything went right Juulsen and Fleury couldve turned into Weber lites.

 

[montreal]

I appreciate your opinion and all your comments over the many many years, but I feel like you put too much weight into the head coaches. It is just one factor out of so so many factors for these kids. Any athelete has had to deal with a coach that they didn't jive with... the best atheletes learn how to make the best of it. The rest, well they probably just weren't that good....

so how do you explain when a player is one of your best under one coach and then terrible under a different coach? in one year did he all the sudden just wasn't that good? And you don't find it odd when all the 1st round picks struggle, every single one when you have a coach that has never been a head coach before?

What about when teams that suck fire their coach and then go on to play much better?

I certainly put a lot of weight into coaches as I feel they can have a major impact. I could easily be wrong here but we can only guess as to what went wrong and I've always said it's not just one person to blame as clearly the players have to take their share and management rushing them can't help matters.

 

[WinterLion]

so how do you explain when a player is one of your best under one coach and then terrible under a different coach? in one year did he all the sudden just wasn't that good? And you don't find it odd when all the 1st round picks struggle, every single one when you have a coach that has never been a head coach before?

What about when teams that suck fire their coach and then go on to play much better?

I certainly put a lot of weight into coaches as I feel they can have a major impact. I could easily be wrong here but we can only guess as to what went wrong and I've always said it's not just one person to blame as clearly the players have to take their share and management rushing them can't help matters.

My point is simply that those players that struggled probably wouldn't have done much no matter who was coach... Obviously the coach has an impact. But there are so many other factors too and most importantly the player. The good players managed to find a way to succeed despite everything.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

so how do you explain when a player is one of your best under one coach and then terrible under a different coach? in one year did he all the sudden just wasn't that good? And you don't find it odd when all the 1st round picks struggle, every single one when you have a coach that has never been a head coach before?

What about when teams that suck fire their coach and then go on to play much better?

I certainly put a lot of weight into coaches as I feel they can have a major impact. I could easily be wrong here but we can only guess as to what went wrong and I've always said it's not just one person to blame as clearly the players have to take their share and management rushing them can't help matters.

The only time they matter imo is when they are absolutely terrible, MT definitely fits the bill. Sly meh, I don't think he had much to work with it, but he wouldn't have been on any of my short lists for a job. He likely falls into the terrible category too.

 

[Runner77]

A healthy serving of Flowered Kale ...

Fleury hit a guy whose name is Marchment.

Which prompted a Twitter user to quip how 20 years ago, it would have been a Marchment doing this to a Fleury.

 

[Scriptor]

Sly was a bad coach. With prospects or AHL players. I don't blame the development on him. He had one of the worse group of prospects in a decade filtering through his AHL teams.

I wouldn't say that sly was a horrible or bad coach because I really believe it came down to the actual horses that he had to flog. Let's just say it wasn't the best herd possible and I don't think anyone can say that he sabotaged any prospect's HOF career while he was at the helm of the AHL affiliate. However, Sly wasn't a great coach because no prospect exceeded expectations under his tutelage.

An average coach is not the answer when it comes to developing prospects for an organization that is still cursed with a need to compete for the playoffs even when it is in a rest/rebuild/re-whatever.

In that respect, Bouchard is a much better option. He's tough on his players, but shows genuine love for them at the same time. He's great for instilling a work ethic and a process towards improving oneself and is good building player confidence, something that can be the real difference maker at that high a level.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

None of that small

Romanov is not big, but he plays big

 

[L4br3cqu3]

A healthy serving of Flowered Kale ...

Fleury hit a guy whose name is Marchment.

Which prompted a Twitter user to quip how 20 years ago, it would have been a Marchment doing this to a Fleury.

Marchment is a big guy and was going for the hit while Fleury was dumping the puck, you see his quick shift in weight to not only 'brace' for the hit, but to hit him preemptively.

Fleury is damn solid on his skates, and did read the play and reacted accordingly, which to me is a clear sign of a -very- good hockey IQ.

This kid will be an NHLer.

 

[1909]

Marchment is a big guy and was going for the hit while Fleury was dumping the puck, you see his quick shift in weight to not only 'brace' for the hit, but to hit him preemptively.

Fleury is damn solid on his skates, and did read the play and reacted accordingly, which to me is a clear sign of a -very- good hockey IQ.

This kid will be an NHLer.

With Juulsen's career in jeopardy, Fleury might be the next RHD coming up the pipeline to help the Habs. Brook won't be far behind, too.

 

[Adam Michaels]

“Sly” will never be around another NHL prospect again IMO. Not in a official capacity anyways.

He is an Assistant Coach for the San Diego Gulls, Anaheim's AHL affiliate.