C Ryan Poehling - St. Cloud State, NCAA (2017, 25th, MTL)

[WeThreeKings]

Based on?

I think middle six is the proper term for his upside. Ideally he's playing 3C because in today's NHL climate, youre not winning with a guy like Poehling at 2C. Just look at the 2C on all previous cup winners.

The fact remains that he simply can't score from distance. He's a good playmaker but he's not an elite one. With those two things in mind, teams will learn to give him space to shoot and choke off his passing lanes. Unless he develops a legitimate shot (which is rare for anyone post draft) he's simply going to be most effectively cast as a 3C.

 

[Goldenhands]

I think middle six is the proper term for his upside. Ideally he's playing 3C because in today's NHL climate, youre not winning with a guy like Poehling at 2C. Just look at the 2C on all previous cup winners.

The fact remains that he simply can't score from distance. He's a good playmaker but he's not an elite one. With those two things in mind, teams will learn to give him space to shoot and choke off his passing lanes. Unless he develops a legitimate shot (which is rare for anyone post draft) he's simply going to be most effectively cast as a 3C.

the kid is on an impressive developmental curve, lets see where it leads before labelling him a third line center... one thing is for sure, if he ends up on a third line, thats some crazy depth you have there down the middle...

 

[Mrb1p]

the kid is on an impressive developmental curve, lets see where it leads before labelling him a third line center... one thing is for sure, if he ends up on a third line, thats some crazy depth you have there down the middle...

Hes not labelling him a third liner, he just thinks you need two first line center to win.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think middle six is the proper term for his upside. Ideally he's playing 3C because in today's NHL climate, youre not winning with a guy like Poehling at 2C. Just look at the 2C on all previous cup winners.

The fact remains that he simply can't score from distance. He's a good playmaker but he's not an elite one. With those two things in mind, teams will learn to give him space to shoot and choke off his passing lanes. Unless he develops a legitimate shot (which is rare for anyone post draft) he's simply going to be most effectively cast as a 3C.

Its do-able with the right supporting winger to drive offensive creativity. It is the exception. But, I wouldn't rule out Poehling becoming as effective as players like Dave Bolland/Kruger or a washed up Brad Richards/Kruger. Now, those Blackhawks teams are the exception, and they have an elite playmaking winger to pick up the slack. Obviously, the other recent champs going back to the lockout pretty much all had two legitimate #1's or a young guy who was on track to be one (Getzlaf behind a peaking McDonald) or a very strong shutdown guy behind a #1 (Brind'Amour behind E. Staal). Now finding two wingers the quality of Kane and Hossa to overcome it is quite hard.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I think middle six is the proper term for his upside. Ideally he's playing 3C because in today's NHL climate, youre not winning with a guy like Poehling at 2C. Just look at the 2C on all previous cup winners.

The fact remains that he simply can't score from distance. He's a good playmaker but he's not an elite one. With those two things in mind, teams will learn to give him space to shoot and choke off his passing lanes. Unless he develops a legitimate shot (which is rare for anyone post draft) he's simply going to be most effectively cast as a 3C.

I'd wait until he plays a NHL game or 82 before writing off his potential.

 

[KingTux]

I'd wait until he plays a NHL game or 82 before writing off his potential.

Projecting Poehling as a middle 6 center in the big is far from writing off his potential. Its actually a great value for a late 1st round pick

 

[WeThreeKings]

I'd wait until he plays a NHL game or 82 before writing off his potential.

You could say that about literally every prospect ever. Development trends are rarely ever a straight line of progression, he could have literally just hit the entire cap of his potential this year.

All I'm saying is that his current ability matched with historic trends (certain abilities that don't seem to improve drastically at this age) give you a pretty good indication of where he will end up should all go well for him

The rest of my projection is related to the landscape of the league in which a guy like Poehling may have been a 2C if he met his potential say 10 years ago but now we know that your 2C needs to be as close to a #1 as possible if you have any hope to succeed.

Even at the best projections of Poehling he simply would not stack up against: Tavares, Malkin, Kuznetsov, Point, etc.

 

[jfhabs]

Projecting Poehling as a middle 6 center in the big is far from writing off his potential. Its actually a great value for a late 1st round pick

Saying his peak potential his Bolland/Kruger is... saying won't contend with him on the second line is...

The arguments about his shot is true, but it wouldn't be the first time a player improves drastically on his shot after his draft +1 season... Also, considering there's no other significant flaws in his game; I think he's being downplayed a little bit tbh.

 

[KingTux]

Saying his peak potential his Bolland/Kruger is... saying won't contend with him on the second line is...

The arguments about his shot is true, but it wouldn't be the first time a player improves drastically on his shot after his draft +1 season... Also, considering there's no other significant flaws in his game; I think he's being downplayed a little bit tbh.

Bolland and Kruger were never considered middle 6 center IMO and if they were it was for a very brief period of time. I think he has the potential to produce more offense than those guys.

I think a reasonable projection for Poelhing is a player similar to today's Lars Eller.

 

[WeThreeKings]

WTK can’t let this go lol

What's there to let go of? I don't think you can win the cup with ROR as your 2C. I think it would be very hard to win with Mikko Koivu as your 2C.

The definition of a cup contending 2C has changed and the only people who cant let things go are those who refuse to adapt their view of what a 2C needs to be in the NHL today.

 

[Playmaker09]

What's there to let go of? I don't think you can win the cup with ROR as your 2C. I think it would be very hard to win with Mikko Koivu as your 2C.

The definition of a cup contending 2C has changed and the only people who cant let things go are those who refuse to adapt their view of what a 2C needs to be in the NHL today.

Pretty much.

Which is why I'm always surprised when people seem insulted at the thought of Kotkaniemei being a 2c.

 

[Frk It]

What's there to let go of? I don't think you can win the cup with ROR as your 2C. I think it would be very hard to win with Mikko Koivu as your 2C.

The definition of a cup contending 2C has changed and the only people who cant let things go are those who refuse to adapt their view of what a 2C needs to be in the NHL today.

Hawks won a Cup with Handzus as their 2C. Wings won a Cup with Filppula as their 2C.

Ideally you have a 2C close to as good as your 1C, but teams have made it work otherwise.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Hawks won a Cup with Handzus as their 2C. Wings won a Cup with Filppula as their 2C.

Ideally you have a 2C close to as good as your 1C, but teams have made it work otherwise.

The Wings Cup victory was almost ten years ago now. As far as the Hawks, they did win with Handzus there but that's the case of a team that's already won with a core of lot of talent in other areas. There's always going to be an exception or two, but you're going to need HOF talent and top level talent in a lot of other areas if you wanna win without a C line that can battle in today's league.

 

[Playmaker09]

Hawks won a Cup with Handzus as their 2C. Wings won a Cup with Filppula as their 2C.

Ideally you have a 2C close to as good as your 1C, but teams have made it work otherwise.

Chicago had a cap situation that's impossible to replicate. You can't afford three elite wingers like Sharp, Kane and Hossa without some of the cap-circumventing deals that they had + the insane Kane/Toews contracts. Winnipeg did something similar this year but with ELCs, which is obviously not a solution for a long term contending window. Maybe they'll be able to make it work with Roslovic for a few years if he hits the ground running.

The wings had Zetterberg as 2C? He played against Crosby every night in that finals did he not?

 

[Frk It]

Chicago had a cap situation that's impossible to replicate. You can't afford three elite wingers like Sharp, Kane and Hossa without some of the cap-circumventing deals that they had + the insane Kane/Toews contracts. Winnipeg did something similar this year but with ELCs, which is obviously not a solution for a long term contending window. Maybe they'll be able to make it work with Roslovic for a few years if he hits the ground running.

The wings had Zetterberg as 2C? He played against Crosby every night in that finals did he not?

IIRC, in the Finals Datsyuk and Z were split, but before that they were on a line together.

But it's been awhile now, so I might be remembering that wrong.

 

[Rebels57]

I think he is the most underrated center at prospect in NHL.

He is going to be a stud in NHL level, hockey IQ is very important and like Kotkaniemi, he got amazing hockey IQ. I think the only thing he can be better is at shot.

Hockey IQ + His defensive play + Maturity, he got all that.

I think he is going to be a excellent #2 in the future with Montreal Canadiens.

I'm laugh so hard with comparison Poehling/Sheahan in this thread. Just come on. Poehling looks like a beast at center. He is going to be a amazing center for Habs.

*Looks at profile picture*

This post checks out. No bias detected.

 

[WeThreeKings]

IIRC, in the Finals Datsyuk and Z were split, but before that they were on a line together.

But it's been awhile now, so I might be remembering that wrong.

And they still had Lidstrom on defence. Pretty much anything is possible if you have one of the greatest players in NHL history on a well built roster.

 

[Frk It]

And they still had Lidstrom on defence. Pretty much anything is possible if you have one of the greatest players in NHL history on a well built roster.

Yeah, I was just saying you CAN make it work otherwise.

As a fan of a re-building team, ideally I agree that you should aim to have a 2C that would be a 1C on most other teams. A lot of Cup winning teams have had that be true for them. But that is admittedly a very difficult thing to pull off.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Yeah, I was just saying you CAN make it work otherwise.

As a fan of a re-building team, ideally I agree that you should aim to have a 2C that would be a 1C on most other teams. A lot of Cup winning teams have had that be true for them. But that is admittedly a very difficult thing to pull off.

Definitely there are exceptions but in the infancy of rebuilding a team. I, as a fan, or a member of management, shouldnt be satisfied with Kotka and Poehling down the middle. I'd be wanting more and luckily am in line to do that with a C heavy draft and a weak team going into the year.

 

[jfhabs]

What's there to let go of? I don't think you can win the cup with ROR as your 2C. I think it would be very hard to win with Mikko Koivu as your 2C.

The definition of a cup contending 2C has changed and the only people who cant let things go are those who refuse to adapt their view of what a 2C needs to be in the NHL today.

Boston won and played a final with Bergeron - Krejci
Chicago won or went in the final with Toews - old B.Richards , Toews - Kruger/Handzus, Toews - Bolland/Kruger, Toews - Sharp/Madden

 

[WeThreeKings]

Boston won and played a final with Bergeron - Krejci
Chicago won or went in the final with Toews - old B.Richards , Toews - Kruger/Handzus, Toews - Bolland/Kruger, Toews - Sharp/Madden

Krejci lead the playoffs in points. He's been a very good top end C for a long time while Boston was a contender.

The Hawks are an example of a team who did without but they had insane depth and Kane, Hossa, two hall of fame wingers, add Keith who is likely a hall of fame defenceman, Seabrook who was a number one as well. Those teams had insane depth everywhere else.

So yes, you can win with Poehling as a 2C provided you have three hall of fame players playing other positions on your team. Good luck!

 

[Playmaker09]

Boston won and played a final with Bergeron - Krejci
Chicago won or went in the final with Toews - old B.Richards , Toews - Kruger/Handzus, Toews - Bolland/Kruger, Toews - Sharp/Madden

Bergeron's a legit 1C without question.

Krejci is a ROR level C in the regular season. But he's also one of the best playoff performers of this decade. 12-11-23 in 25 gp and 9-17-26 in 22 gp are elite 1C playoff numbers.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Based on?

By me having watched him play and forming an opinion on how he might perform in the NHL? I'm not saying he can't be a top6 or 2nd line player, just that it's more likely he's bottom 6 IMO.

 

[Dr Quincy]

The Wings Cup victory was almost ten years ago now. As far as the Hawks, they did win with Handzus there but that's the case of a team that's already won with a core of lot of talent in other areas. There's always going to be an exception or two, but you're going to need HOF talent and top level talent in a lot of other areas if you wanna win without a C line that can battle in today's league.

The flipside in this thinking is saying a team doesn't need a #2D because PITT and WAS won without a real #2 and with fairly mediocre D overall.

My opinion is that you win a Cup if you have a great roster. There are lots of way to spread that greatness around. Maybe it's 2 #1C, a great wing and a #1 D. Maybe it's 2 #1 D, a #1C and 2 Great Wings.

When talking about "recent Cups" you are dealing with a small sample size and correlation that doens't necessarily prove causation. Nobody is going to have 2 Cs like Malkin and Crosby, yet they haven't won every year, and CHI has shown you can win without that model. Poehling may not end up being a #2C, but if he is a #2C (say 50-60 pts and very good D) and the team is strong in other areas it probably won't matter.

It's like having a 1B who only hits 15 home runs. Sure, you'd like your 1B to hit 20 or more, but if you have a C or SS hitting above the avg # for their positions, it probably doesn't matter. The question is, will he be that 50-60 pt guy and will MTL have a good enough rest of the roster.

Both of those remain to be seen.

 

[jfhabs]

Bergeron's a legit 1C without question.

Krejci is a ROR level C in the regular season. But he's also one of the best playoff performers of this decade. 12-11-23 in 25 gp and 9-17-26 in 22 gp are elite 1C playoff numbers.

I agree he's a good player, but he's no Malkin and Boston still came out on top of the East both years. They didn't necessarily had the best C depth in the league both years and they lost in the final to Chicago's who's depth at center wasn't as good as Boston.