Confirmed Trade: [BUF/CHI] Alex Nylander for Henri Jokiharju

[ijuka]

....and yet he was traded for a reclamation project. Not as good as the FHM (Finnish Hive Mind) believe and not much of a market either.

Solid logic here. The point is, people believe this was a bad trade. You can't use it to justify itself(circular logic).

Think about this. Jokiharju got scratched for Brandon Manning after the coaching change. Brandon Manning.

 

[Royal Thunder]

Nylander played well when he was first called up this season. Had a few points and scored a couple really nice goals in the first handful of games, and then wasn't really heard from again the rest of the way. I am an optimistic fan by nature and wanted to be excited about him but he just never had any sustained success. Hope he does well in Chicago because it was beginning to look a bit doubtful here.

Solid logic here. The point is, people believe this was a bad trade. You can't use it to justify itself(circular logic).

Think about this. Jokiharju got scratched for Brandon Manning after the coaching change. Brandon Manning.

That's not a good look for Colliton... Housley routinely sat Pilut to play Scandella so we know the feeling.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Nylander played well when he was first called up this season. Had a few points and scored a couple really nice goals in the first handful of games, and then wasn't really heard from again the rest of the way. I am an optimistic fan by nature and wanted to be excited about him but he just never had any sustained success. Hope he does well in Chicago because it was beginning to look a bit doubtful here.


That's not a good look for Colliton... Housley routinely sat Pilut to play Scandella so we know the feeling.

Or maybe he wasn't ready and only playing with a future HOF could make him look so.
Once they took him away from Keith it was obvious he wasn't NHL ready.
Keith is still a borderline #1 at worst and he's still fast. He's also an athletic freak. Keith can mask a lot of deficiencies. Part of the reason why Brent Seabrook has that horrid contract is that Keith masked the dropoff in his game enough to think it was nearly nonexistent.

A lot of people think that Keith has dropped off. He hasn't in his own end, but he has gotten significantly worse on offense. Keith is still awesome at D. He's become a top end defensive defenseman in his later years.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Or maybe he wasn't ready and only playing with a future HOF could make him look so.
Once they took him away from Keith it was obvious he wasn't NHL ready.
Keith is still a borderline #1 at worst and he's still fast. He's also an athletic freak. Keith can mask a lot of deficiencies. Part of the reason why Brent Seabrook has that horrid contract is that Keith masked the dropoff in his game enough to think it was nearly nonexistent.

A lot of people think that Keith has dropped off. He hasn't in his own end, but he has gotten significantly worse on offense. Keith is still awesome at D. He's become a top end defensive defenseman in his later years.

You probably don't believe in it, but Hockeyviz's WOWY chart shows that Joki was better without Keith than with and that Keith was better with Joki than without.


In fact, if you look at the Spider chart there... the best D partnership for Keith was with Joki.


Limited sample, grain of salt and all that, but I'll take over the eyetest of someone with a clear subjective point of view in this case.

 

[EichHart]

Hawks are my 2nd team so hope Nylander does well there. Excited to see what Joker can do with Dahlin as they grow together the next few years.

 

[Slimmy]

Ah, qualifying it in that fashion I would agree. He did look like an NHL player in his late season recall.

Assuming Nylander continues to improve and starts the season in the same fassion he ended last one, do you think Buff is better off with Jokiharju?
I was excited to see Nylander in Buffalo next season. With Dahlin, Olofsson, Pilut, Larsson and now also Johansson the Sabres have become somewhat of a Swedish colony. Pity he was traded. But if it makes the team better its a good thing, of coarse.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Assuming Nylander continues to improve and starts the season in the same fassion he ended last one, do you think Buff is better off with Jokiharju?
I was excited to see Nylander in Buffalo next season. With Dahlin, Olofsson, Pilut, Larsson and now also Johansson the Sabres have become somewhat of a Swedish colony. Pity he was traded. But if it makes the team better its a good thing, of coarse.

This is one of those things. Jokiharju had been passed up by 4-5 other D in the organizations plans, and Nylander was never going to develop in Buffalo.
Unless Jokiharju turns into a #1 defenseman, Chicago isn't going to miss him much. They have at 5 guys with just as much upside. He was the one who was most NHL ready, so they leveraged him in a trade. This one may look bad for Chicago because it is a huge gamble, but regardless, Jokiharju was no longer in Chicago's plans.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Assuming Nylander continues to improve and starts the season in the same fassion he ended last one, do you think Buff is better off with Jokiharju?
I was excited to see Nylander in Buffalo next season. With Dahlin, Olofsson, Pilut, Larsson and now also Johansson the Sabres have become somewhat of a Swedish colony. Pity he was traded. But if it makes the team better its a good thing, of coarse.

I think we absolutely came out on top in this trade. Joki looks like he could be the ideal partner for Dahlin down the road. I won't downplay Nylander's skill/natural talent, but he seemed to be giving the org more headaches than he was worth, and he'd clearly been passed over by Olofsson on the LW. On the other side, I'd guess the Sabres like Thompson more as a RW. He obviously struggled in the NHL last year, but he showed a hell of a lot more at the AHL level in the chunk of games he played there than Nylander ever did.

 

[Dr Quincy]

This is one of those things. Jokiharju had been passed up by 4-5 other D in the organizations plans, and Nylander was never going to develop in Buffalo.
Unless Jokiharju turns into a #1 defenseman, Chicago isn't going to miss him much. They have at 5 guys with just as much upside. He was the one who was most NHL ready, so they leveraged him in a trade. This one may look bad for Chicago because it is a huge gamble, but regardless, Jokiharju was no longer in Chicago's plans.

You can like the trade.
You can like the guy you got.
You can think CHI dealt from positional depth. All valid.

But when you start talking about 5 D men with more upside you start to sound less like someone speaking knowledge and more like someone desperate to justify a trade.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

You can like the trade.
You can like the guy you got.
You can think CHI from positional depth. All valid.

But when you start talking about 5 D men with more upside you start to sound less like someone speaking knowledge and more like someone desperate to justify a trade.

I legit think that at least the following D have more upside than Jokiharju
Boqvist
Vlasic
Beaudin

(I think Vlasic is going to be a huge 2nd round gem btw, and Boqvist has unbounded upside)

and these two are his equal
Mitchell
Krys

Mitchell has a chance to be better than Jokiharju. He was, at best, 5th on our depth chart.
The Hawks have spent 6 of their last 9 1sts and 2nds on D.

And my kneejerk reaction was it was an awful deal. Jokiharju is being overvalued because he's NHL ready. I thought the Hawks could have received more of a sure thing than A. Nylander for Jokiharju.

 

[BB88]

This is one of those things. Jokiharju had been passed up by 4-5 other D in the organizations plans, and Nylander was never going to develop in Buffalo.
Unless Jokiharju turns into a #1 defenseman, Chicago isn't going to miss him much. They have at 5 guys with just as much upside. He was the one who was most NHL ready, so they leveraged him in a trade. This one may look bad for Chicago because it is a huge gamble, but regardless, Jokiharju was no longer in Chicago's plans.

HAHHAHHAHHAHH.

Insane.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

HAHHAHHAHHAHH.

Insane.

It actually isn't if you know anything about Chicago's D prospect pool.
Boqvist and Vlasic blow Jokiharju's upside away, Beaudin is a bit better, you could say the same about Mitchell, and Krys is a similar prospect to Jokiharju. The only difference is that Jokiharju is NHL ready. The others aren't quite there yet. You're overrating being NHL ready.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I legit think that at least the following D have more upside than Jokiharju
Boqvist
Beaudin
Vlasic

and these two are his equal
Mitchell
Krys

Mitchell has a chance to be better than Jokiharju. He was, at best, 5th on our depth chart.
The Hawks have spent 6 of their last 9 1sts and 2nds on D.

And my kneejerk reaction was it was an awful deal. Jokiharju is being overvalued because he's NHL ready.

I think most people would disagree with you on all of those except Boqvist. You might get some agreement on Beaudin, too, but certainly not a consensus. Jokiharju played in the NHL at 19, put up .32 points/game, and had really good underlying metrics. And he was logging an average of almost 19mins/game, too, so he wasn't being hidden on the 3rd pairing. All of that points to a guy who's developing into a really good NHL player.

 

[BK]

Just want to get on record...You think that Stan Bowman is a Cup caliber GM? That if he took over any team that needed a total rebuild within about 3-5 years he would make them a Cup contender?

Either you believe that or you're playing Devil's advocate just to do so.

Yes he is. He rebuilt the team twice, 2013 and 2015. He also is the one who signed Hossa when Tallon wanted Havlat.

Is he perfect? No but he is a damn good GM.

 

[boredmale]

I am guessing Chicago hopes lightening strikes twice(Strome)

 

[BK]

I think most people would disagree with you on all of those except Boqvist. You might get some agreement on Beaudin, too, but certainly not a consensus. Jokiharju played in the NHL at 19, put up .32 points/game, and had really good underlying metrics. And he was logging an average of almost 19mins/game, too, so he wasn't being hidden on the 3rd pairing. All of that points to a guy who's developing into a really good NHL player.

Numbers don't tell the whole story (which is typical). He was really good early then started to come back to earth. Joker is a really good prospect but if the Hawks view Boqvist and Mitchell ahead of him then he is the player to move. I think he will be a really good #3 D but has a #2 ceiling.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

I think most people would disagree with you on all of those except Boqvist. You might get some agreement on Beaudin, too, but certainly not a consensus. Jokiharju played in the NHL at 19, put up .32 points/game, and had really good underlying metrics. And he was logging an average of almost 19mins/game, too, so he wasn't being hidden on the 3rd pairing. All of that points to a guy who's developing into a really good NHL player.

Well sure, but that doesn't mean that the other guys aren't, at the very least, just as good. Krys and Mitchell went to college, and Krys just signed. I've heard that both are nearly NHL ready at the moment.

I'm really high on Boqvist and Vlasic and I fully expect those two to be a dynamic 1st pairing eventually.

 

[Jeffrey Lebowski]

I'm sad to see joker go. Obviously the org wasn't as high on him as the fans were.

I think his ceiling is #2 but more likely he's a safe bet to be a top 4 guy. Akin to Hjalmarsson without the edge and willingness to block shots.

I do think Mitchell and Boqvist have more potential, but it's tough seeing a guy with a safe floor to be a top 4 D traded for a question mark like Nylander.

Time will tell if this isn't as lopsided as it looks right now.

 

[TLEH]

I hate the trade and 100% think that Ian Mitchell has more upside than Joki. Still hate the trade because I think Jokiharju is at least a 5th D at the NHL level and Nylander hasn’t shown he’s even an NHL guy

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

I hate the trade and 100% think that Ian Mitchell has more upside than Joki. Still hate the trade because I think Jokiharju is at least a 5th D at the NHL level and Nylander hasn’t shown he’s even an NHL guy

If Nylander is a top 6 forward, the Hawks won't miss Jokiharju much.
Jokiharju was anywhere from 3rd to 5th on the Hawks D depth chart.

Currently, this is my opinion:
Definitely better prospects than Jokiharju:
Boqvist
Vlasic

More upside than Jokiharju, but not necessarily better currently
Beaudin
Mitchell

Equal prospect to Jokiharju in terms of upside:
Krys

I honestly think they traded him because he was 5th on their internal depth chart. It was a gamble they could afford to make. unless all of these guys bust spectacularly, they won't miss him.

 

[Dr Quincy]

I legit think that at least the following D have more upside than Jokiharju
Boqvist
Vlasic
Beaudin

(I think Vlasic is going to be a huge 2nd round gem btw, and Boqvist has unbounded upside)

and these two are his equal
Mitchell
Krys

Mitchell has a chance to be better than Jokiharju. He was, at best, 5th on our depth chart.
The Hawks have spent 6 of their last 9 1sts and 2nds on D.

And my kneejerk reaction was it was an awful deal. Jokiharju is being overvalued because he's NHL ready. I thought the Hawks could have received more of a sure thing than A. Nylander for Jokiharju.

Boqvist? Sure.
Beaudin- eh arguable.
Vlasic- Big disagree
Mitchell- Disagree
Krys- I'm a BU fan. Mom and Dad went there and that's where they met in the 50s. Been following the team since I was a wee lad and have lived in the Boston area my whole life. I like Krys a lot. Great kid. But no he doesn't have Jokiharju's upside at all.

The fact that you think every 20-23 year old CHI has the rights to has tons of room to grow, but a kid who played in the NHL at 18-19 is a finished product..... that's some mighty big contortions to support the local team my man.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Boqvist? Sure.
Beaudin- eh arguable.
Vlasic- Big disagree
Mitchell- Disagree
Krys- I'm a BU fan. Mom and Dad went there and that's where they met in the 50s. Been following the team since I was a wee lad and have lived in the Boston area my whole life. I like Krys a lot. Great kid. But no he doesn't have Jokiharju's upside at all.

The fact that you think every 20-23 year old CHI has the rights to has tons of room to grow, but a kid who played in the NHL at 18-19 is a finished product..... that's some mighty big contortions to support the local team my man.

They only guys that I think are definitely better are Boqvist and Vlasic. I don't necessarily think that Jokiharju doesn't have room to grow, I was arguing that point because that is what the Hawks think(see link in podcast)
Krys is the only guy on that list that you could make me a convincing argument that he is a worse prospect than Jokiharju. I think you could argue he's better.

Why don't you like Vlasic? I absolutely love him. Hard to find that size/skating/shot combo. He's a huge boom/bust pick, I admit. But if he hits, the sky's the limit. Like I said earlier, the Hawks care more about ceiling than most teams. They'll take the guy with the higher ceiling 10x out of 10. I am huge on ceiling with drafting. Huge. I believe the safe pick is the wrong pick the vast majority of the time. I'm willing to be wrong a few times to hit big a few more.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It actually isn't if you know anything about Chicago's D prospect pool.
Boqvist and Vlasic blow Jokiharju's upside away, Beaudin is a bit better, you could say the same about Mitchell, and Krys is a similar prospect to Jokiharju. The only difference is that Jokiharju is NHL ready. The others aren't quite there yet. You're overrating being NHL ready.

Orrrr you are overrating prospects.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

Orrrr you are overrating prospects.

It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the Hawks thought. They probably had him 5th on their depth chart, which is why they traded him.

When it comes to prospects, I value ceiling over all else. It is all about the ceiling. I feel that way in baseball and football as well. I believe the safe pick is the wrong pick 90% of the time.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the Hawks thought. They probably had him 5th on their depth chart, which is why they traded him.

When it comes to prospects, I value ceiling over all else. It is all about the ceiling. I feel that way in baseball and football as well. I believe the safe pick is the wrong pick 90% of the time.

Yeah but... A.Nylander ceiling is probably at AHL.