Lauser3 said:
I'm being a realist because he was expected to be our #1 defenseman from his first season, once Ozolinsh was traded that is. Or did you conveniently forget that one? No. 1 defenseman put up points and that's the bottom line. You know what's funny...just saw that TSN.CA has demoted Bouwmeester from "franchise defenseman" his rookie year, to "No. 1 defenseman" after his 2nd year. What do you think the next time will be?
That just isn't very realistic, sorry. You can't be realistic and expect a 19 years old D to be an efficient #1 D. Realism would tell you even a highly-touted D will be a success if he can even sustain NHL shifts at that age. Everything else is pretty much a bunus at that point, IMO.
Lauser3 said:
As for the last 18 year old...you'd probably need to go way back because most teams (with the exception of Florida) don't rush their prospects or are in dire need of defense which is why Bouwmeester was our immediate #2 (after Ozolinsh) his rookie year. Because our team (Florida) was that bad off. If I had to guess though...Pronger/Tverdovsky? BTW...Bouwmeester wasn't 18 his rookie year, he was 19 actually...he turned 19 (September 2002) prior to 2002-2003 season...so if you're asking 19 year olds, then there have been a couple in recent years.
And how did they look?
Lauser3 said:
Van Ryn is still unproven as far as I'm concerned. One good season doesn't change the fact he was in the minors most of his career. He's still got plenty to prove too, because he's a late bloomer so he may have peaked already for all we know. He's already in his prime (25 or 26 right?) years for the NHL, so there are still question marks surrounding him. Like with any other player, consistency throughout his career will determine whether he's a one season wonder/bust/mediocre/decent/good/very good/great/star player...until then, he's still in the same boat as Bouwmeester...unproven, although not mediocre like Jaystine obviously. I mean, you have to give credit where credit is due and Mike's already has almost 3 times as many goals in the NHL as Jaystine does in only 5 more games played.
Mike Van Ryn was really good, IMO. I don't think you give him enough credit. That being said, you are also pretty harsh by comparing him to Bouwmeester like that. It's apples and oranges between those two. Mike Van Ryn is a man. He plays like a man too. He's honed his skills for years.
I think what he has done was great. But I don't think it is realistic to compare him to Bouwmeester. I'm not much for point comparisons and all that stuff but if you insist on doing it, I think it's much more fair to map it out with players in similar situations. Pitkanen, Klesla, guys where the age/experience was similar.
Lauser3 said:
So Pitkanen gets a free pass for being on a good team in the NHL, yet he's continued to produce points in the AHL as well, but Jaystine gets excused either way even though he's on a better team in the AHL?
Are you new? Joni Pitkanen gets his fair share of criticisms from fair weather, panicky fans just like Jay. There's already a horde of people predicting bust status, in part because he wore down and also because of concussions and lack of toughness.
Nobody gets a free pass on HF. One dumb Panther fan last year said Nash wasn't convincing enough and basically called him a poor man's Nathan Horton.
Lauser3 said:
But if we're talking NHL teams then...why were Pronger and Ozolinsh still able to produce points at young ages (18 -20) and on bad teams (Hartford and San Jose) but you need to make excuses for Jaystine for underperforming? Hmmm...why is that exactly?
It was a very different time for offense from the blueline.
The part of your answer as to why guys like Pronger were able to get 30 points lies in part with the fact Malakhov had close to 60 points that year Matthieu Schneider 52, Richard ****ing Smehlik 41, Ray Bourque 91, Glen Wesley 58, Larry Murphy 73, Al MacInnis 82, Jeff Brown 62 (in almost as many games), Bill Houlder 39, Blake 68, Zhitnik 52, Kravchuk 50, Beers 43, Shannon 58, Chelios 60, Ledyard 46, Ellet 43, Coffey 77, Lidstrom 56, Chiasson 46, Galley 70, Racine 52, Gord Murphy 43, Kurvers 40, Cote 51, Iafrate 45, Johansson 42, Kevin Hatcher 40, Stevens 78, Niedermayer 46.
It was a time where guys like Zubov, Chelios, Stevens could be on top of their team in scoring. No offense to these players, but they would have had problems pulling that off in today's NHL.
The fist passes out of the zone had a chance to make something happen back then. And rushing the puck was not yet the sin it is today. As a matter of fact, very young NHLers at an easier time breaking in back then too.
Anyway, I'd compare Jay Bo to players post 95-96. I'm sure there are some pretty good players who will statistically be superior to Jay to strenghten whatever argument you are trying to make
Lauser3 said:
As for the last part...World Championships/World Cup/Olympics/Whatever, it still doesn't change the rhetorical question at hand...nor the answer: nothing beats the NHL playoffs and winning the Stanley Cup for players. Period.
Precisely. Which is why focusing on his AHL play is rather strange