Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
Lauser3 said:
It has kept him in the NHL long enough, and has earned him a spot on team Canada too.
You put way too much stock in his AHL performance, and not enough in what else he has done.
"laters"
Bouwmeester in Chicago
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It has kept him in the NHL long enough, and has earned him a spot on team Canada too.
You put way too much stock in his AHL performance, and not enough in what else he has done.
"laters"
BTW...it's AHL AND NHL actually...he's done squat in both leagues. As for his Team Canada performances, the first year he was named was because there were better players still playing in the NHL playoffs at the time. The 2nd time around, despite a supposedly "stellar" performance his first time around, he wasn't even named to the starting roster; not until Pronger and Jovanovski were injured was he even brought up. But he's a star right? 
BTW...he's only been in the NHL this long and started so early on because the defense corps and depth in Florida has sucked and been so weak all around for quite some time now...just ask Luongo. Nice try though Vlady.
BTW...he's only been in the NHL this long and started so early on because the defense corps and depth in Florida has sucked and been so weak all around for quite some time now...just ask Luongo. Nice try though Vlady.
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
Lauser3 said:
The point is not to call him a star. He doesn't play like one.
I just think you go out of your way to look at the negatives. But then again, losing perspective is something commonplace on those forums.
It's cute that dancingtree gets his panties in a bunch over statistics, babbling incoherently about Jay Bo not playing well in the AHL while admitting he hasn't seen him in once.
At the end of the day, I am satisfied with what I have seen of Bouwmeester in the NHL. It's not earth-shattering. But I was satisfied with his NHL play as well as national performances.
You can freak out all you want. I'm going to keep things in perspective and take a moderate approach. It works well and prevents me from being embarassed in the long term.
I was disappointed that you dropped the "catch phrase" in your last post, BTW. Keep it. It fits you like a glove!
Jay-Bo has 0 goals and 0 assists in about his last TWENTY AHL games.Vlad The Impaler said:
There are very few players whose hype level and actual production level are as drastically different as Bouwmeester's.
So far in his extremely young career, I would consider him a bust. Is that coherent enough?
I like Jay-Bo. I hope he is a future NHL All-Star. I drafted him early in my fantasy league. I just feel that he should be dominating the AHL, and he is not.
By the way, I am not wearing panties.
Vlad The Impaler said:
Vlady...I'm not freaking out one bit; just pointing out the obvious that people seem to glaze over with positives.
The point isn't that he isn't playing like a star, it's that he'll never be a star...he doesn't have it in him. I won't be embarrassed either....I see him possibly winning a Lady Byng in the future but a Norris Trophy? Highly unlikely if he doesn't change his style dramatically and put up points. Lidstrom does, Pronger does, Stevens does, Niedermayer does, Jovanovski does, etc...etc...
You're not keeping things in perspective if you're content with his performances thus far. Keeping it in perspective is admitting that this highly touted 1st round pick hasn't lived up to his billing and has underperformed at BOTH the NHL and AHL level. Period.
Oh, and this is for you Vlady....Laters. Just like OJ huh?
The AHL is and has always been a developement league first and foremost. Jay stated since the the beginning of the season to his arrival in Chicago that he wanted to work on being better defensively, so that he can help limit the shots on goal for Luongo whenever the NHL season would begin again. Here is an excerpt from one of the Wolves' broadcasts.....
If you want to talk about something undeserved then talk about Jay being named an All-Star (lone rep. for San Antonio) in the AHL this season, other than that though Jay's NHL and International play have been satisfactory so far IMO. You can't expect a 18-21 year old defenseman to take the role of #1 defenseman and automatically lead a team in their 1st and 2nd years of rebuilding to the playoffs, especially last season when that team suffered as many man game losses to injury as the L.A. Kings had (and just imagine, the Panthers were already the youngest team before those injuries hit the team).
He was horrid in San Antonio, though practically everyone on that team was (with the exception of goaltender Travis Scott)....the system they played under and the travel schedule were one of the worst in the AHL (I'd rank Edmonton in there for one of the worst travel schedules as well).
It's pretty understandable and very commonplace for a team, such as Canada, to name their older, proven and experienced players from the NHL, like Pronger and Jovo, as starters over a 20-year old defenseman in Jay Bouwmeester....Jay not being named a starter means absolutely nothing. Vincent Lecavalier was also a replacement player (came in for Steve Yzerman I believe) and he ended up being the MVP of the tourney. It just goes to show how much depth Canada has and what an honor and what it meant for a young guy like Bouwmeester to be named to the team over other quality veteran d-men Canada could've used at their disposal.Lauser3 said:The 2nd time around, despite a supposedly "stellar" performance his first time around, he wasn't even named to the starting roster; not until Pronger and Jovanovski were injured was he even brought up. But he's a star right?
If you want to talk about something undeserved then talk about Jay being named an All-Star (lone rep. for San Antonio) in the AHL this season, other than that though Jay's NHL and International play have been satisfactory so far IMO. You can't expect a 18-21 year old defenseman to take the role of #1 defenseman and automatically lead a team in their 1st and 2nd years of rebuilding to the playoffs, especially last season when that team suffered as many man game losses to injury as the L.A. Kings had (and just imagine, the Panthers were already the youngest team before those injuries hit the team).
Canuck21t
Registered User
Do you only watch the AHL and no NHL, World Championships nor World Cup? Personally, I only want him to be good in the NHL just so he can represent Canada because on the international stage, he's been EXCELLENT. He was named best defenseman 2 years ago at the World Championship and rightly so. Who cares about the AHL? I don't give a crap about it. Oh and your Jovanovski was BRUTAL in the last World Championship which made me missed Bouwmeester dearly. I wished that he didn't bother playing in the AHL and went to Europe instead.Lauser3 said:
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Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
Lauser3 said:
Well, I disagree with you that he doesn't have star potential. I don't know if he'll realize that potential or not. As for the Norris, I don't know if he'll get one. Some of the players you just named do not have a Norris.
I think Bouwmeester has a good chance to be as good a defenseman as Jovanovski when all is said and done, BTW.
Lauser3 said:
Maybe that's the thing. I've long ago stopped to listen to to overly positive projections done by people who do not know what they are talking about. To me Bouwmeester looks just fine. Whatever billing he has not lived up to, it isn't mine. He looks pretty fine to me. Maybe I'd be more disappointed if he was a European I had not seen before his draft.
I will readily admit it would be preferable if Jay had improved on a few things I hoped for. But it's not like it's a race to get there, you know.
I don't mean it as an insult at all, but the way you try to map out players and compare them, go on stats, etc. it just screams to me that you do not know what you are doing. I've seen that stuff done hundreds of times and it just doesn't work that way.
Lauser3 said:Oh, and this is for you Vlady....Laters. Just like OJ huh?
I hope I didn't piss you off too much, man
As a point of reflexion, I will take one of your quote here and then ask you something.
Lauser3 said:
Now imagine yourself in 1999. Joe Thornton has just completed his 2nd NHL season. Replace Bouwmeester's name in the quote above by Thornton. Replace Jovanovski's name by Jason Arnott.
That kind of stuff has been done over and over again, and it just doesn't work on a consistent basis. It's not a reasonable way to reach conclusions and sooner or later, you're going to realize it doesn't work that way. You may luck out a couple of times. Good for you if you do. But sooner or later, you will go at it differently.
There, I made my effort not to insult you and explain my point of view.
Epsilon
#basta
I think the opinions on Bouwmeester are way too polarized here.
On one hand, he's not even remotely close to being a "bust" as one person said. He's already shown he can be an effective NHL defenseman, and one poor season in the AHL is not going to totally derail that.
On the other hand, people are blowing this season off way too nonchalantly. His consistently mediocre play all year is certainly something to be worried about. Personally I have seen little so far that makes me think Bouwmeester is the franchise player that many seem to think he is. He might get there eventually, but he's not there yet. The laughable comparisons to Bobby Orr thankfully seem to have stopped.
Now, I want to specifically address the posts of the "but he was great on Team Canada in the World Chmapionships/World Cup". Too me, this is not all that impressive, and at this point really only says two things: First, that Bouwmeester is very good when surrounded by great players; and second, that Bouwmeester is very good on big ice (in the case of the WCs in particular). Neither of these observations should be all that surprising. Bouwmeester is undeniably a great skater, and so it doesn't surprise me that he would excel on international ice. But the number of posts I saw after the 2003 WCs predicting Bouwmeester would win the 2004 Norris based on his play there was baffling to say the least, given that the two situations are not even remotely related. Is anyone tabbing Niklas Kronwall for the 2006 Norris? Didn't think so. And while there's certainly nothing wrong with Bouwmeester playing better with elite players than poor ones (one would certainly hope he wouldn't play poorly with elite players, at any rate), it does suggest that perhaps he's a player who only rises to the level of his teammates, and not one who can carry his less-skilled teammates to a higher level. Now, I'm not saying that he will stay that way forever, but right now that's what I see.
On one hand, he's not even remotely close to being a "bust" as one person said. He's already shown he can be an effective NHL defenseman, and one poor season in the AHL is not going to totally derail that.
On the other hand, people are blowing this season off way too nonchalantly. His consistently mediocre play all year is certainly something to be worried about. Personally I have seen little so far that makes me think Bouwmeester is the franchise player that many seem to think he is. He might get there eventually, but he's not there yet. The laughable comparisons to Bobby Orr thankfully seem to have stopped.
Now, I want to specifically address the posts of the "but he was great on Team Canada in the World Chmapionships/World Cup". Too me, this is not all that impressive, and at this point really only says two things: First, that Bouwmeester is very good when surrounded by great players; and second, that Bouwmeester is very good on big ice (in the case of the WCs in particular). Neither of these observations should be all that surprising. Bouwmeester is undeniably a great skater, and so it doesn't surprise me that he would excel on international ice. But the number of posts I saw after the 2003 WCs predicting Bouwmeester would win the 2004 Norris based on his play there was baffling to say the least, given that the two situations are not even remotely related. Is anyone tabbing Niklas Kronwall for the 2006 Norris? Didn't think so. And while there's certainly nothing wrong with Bouwmeester playing better with elite players than poor ones (one would certainly hope he wouldn't play poorly with elite players, at any rate), it does suggest that perhaps he's a player who only rises to the level of his teammates, and not one who can carry his less-skilled teammates to a higher level. Now, I'm not saying that he will stay that way forever, but right now that's what I see.
Wally112pac said:
Yes, NHL level...but you don't take stats seriously anyway, so 24 earned points in 143 NHL games would be enough to impress you of course.
Lauser3 said:
"I'm not taking anyones stats this year seriously"
THIS YEAR. It's hard to tell who's goin 100% and who isn't.
I find it extremely hilarious that you haven't seen Jay Bo play this year and you still put him down.
People who use stats as their only argument.
You must be a huge baseball fan if you love stats this much.
Wally112pac said:"I'm not taking anyones stats this year seriously"
THIS YEAR. It's hard to tell who's goin 100% and who isn't.
I find it extremely hilarious that you haven't seen Jay Bo play this year and you still put him down.
People who use stats as their only argument.
You must be a huge baseball fan if you love stats this much.
Um, you do know how to read right? If so, you should go to some of the posts and see where I stated that I've seen Jaystine play for Chicago a few games but never saw him in San Antonio where the fans felt he was worse even. So I have seen him play in the AHL...have you? Probably not, since you're not taking this year seriously anyway right?
As far as the NHL is concerned, I'm a season ticket holder for the Panthers and caught every single televised away game too...so I've seen plenty of Jaystine to form an opinion on him. So no, my opinion of him is not solely on stats...want to try again?
The difference is, I'm a realist while you're an optimist...he's underperformed in my opinion, but for you he's still probably the next Bobby Orr. Vlad The Impaler said:Well, I disagree with you that he doesn't have star potential. I don't know if he'll realize that potential or not. As for the Norris, I don't know if he'll get one. Some of the players you just named do not have a Norris.
I think Bouwmeester has a good chance to be as good a defenseman as Jovanovski when all is said and done, BTW.
Maybe that's the thing. I've long ago stopped to listen to to overly positive projections done by people who do not know what they are talking about. To me Bouwmeester looks just fine. Whatever billing he has not lived up to, it isn't mine. He looks pretty fine to me. Maybe I'd be more disappointed if he was a European I had not seen before his draft.
I will readily admit it would be preferable if Jay had improved on a few things I hoped for. But it's not like it's a race to get there, you know.
I don't mean it as an insult at all, but the way you try to map out players and compare them, go on stats, etc. it just screams to me that you do not know what you are doing. I've seen that stuff done hundreds of times and it just doesn't work that way.
I hope I didn't piss you off too much, man
As a point of reflexion, I will take one of your quote here and then ask you something.
Now imagine yourself in 1999. Joe Thornton has just completed his 2nd NHL season. Replace Bouwmeester's name in the quote above by Thornton. Replace Jovanovski's name by Jason Arnott.
That kind of stuff has been done over and over again, and it just doesn't work on a consistent basis. It's not a reasonable way to reach conclusions and sooner or later, you're going to realize it doesn't work that way. You may luck out a couple of times. Good for you if you do. But sooner or later, you will go at it differently.
There, I made my effort not to insult you and explain my point of view.
Jovanovski is a much better player than Jaystine will ever be. Even at a younger age than Jaystine, he put up more points (something Jaystine hasn't managed to do in 2 leagues now), used his size (something Jaystine doesn't realize he has), fought (something Jaystine has never done in his career), hit, despite his blunders on defense. Basically he compensated in more than one area...whereas Jaystine doesn't and hasn't.
The expectations for 1st rounders are much higher than those for 8th or 9th rounders...that's just a fact of life. If he was good enough to make the team at a young age then he should be good enough to reach those expectations earlier than expected, especially when he's making over 1 million dollars a season. 6 goals in 143 games is unacceptable anyway you look at it...especially when considered a No. 1 defenseman on your own team. And I'm not even talking about in the future here either, but at the moment, during his time thus far in Florida (especially after Ozolinsh was traded). He was almost shown up by Lilja (who was lucky to be in the NHL) that first year after Ozo was gone, and was clearly outshined by Van Ryn (who wasn't even an NHL regular prior to Florida) last NHL season, when Mike was brought in to be a support for him not be the eventual #1. Jaystine's been consistently mediocre...you want to excuse his first year because he was a rookie? Fine. But what about his second season? What about this season in the AHL? And the subsequent season in the playoffs? Come on now.
As far as the Thornton-Arnott comparison...no question Thornton underperformed his rookie year in comparison to Arnott; however, he didn't have a sophmore slump and improved greatly since whereas Arnott seemed to have peaked at 18/19 in his rookie year. It took Joe one season to get better, whereas it's taken Jaystine over 3 (since he's in the playoffs now). And please don't point out the "defenseman take longer to develop, blah, blah, blah" because Pitkanen is relatively the same age and has done just fine in both the NHL and AHL despite coming over from Europe. And also don't give me the "Pitkanen plays on a better team than Jay" because Jaystine's with Chicago now, not San Antonio/Florida. Pronger was also young and on a bad team in Hartford yet he produced good numbers for a rookie dman. Ozolinsh was young his rookie season with a bad San Jose team and he too produced points. The excuses for Jaystine are running short...and in my opinion, have run out. 18 games in the AHL since his last point? Come on now.
BTW...I don't let anything said on a message board get to me, so no worries.
Laters.
Hug Ben Laf
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Lauser3 said:Jovanovski is a much better player than Jaystine will ever be. Even at a younger age than Jaystine, he put up more points (something Jaystine hasn't managed to do in 2 leagues now), used his size (something Jaystine doesn't realize he has), fought (something Jaystine has never done in his career), hit, despite his blunders on defense. Basically he compensated in more than one area...whereas Jaystine doesn't and hasn't.
The expectations for 1st rounders are much higher than those for 8th or 9th rounders...that's just a fact of life. If he was good enough to make the team at a young age then he should be good enough to reach those expectations earlier than expected, especially when he's making over 1 million dollars a season. 6 goals in 143 games is unacceptable anyway you look at it...especially when considered a No. 1 defenseman on your own team. And I'm not even talking about in the future here either, but at the moment, during his time thus far in Florida (especially after Ozolinsh was traded). He was almost shown up by Lilja (who was lucky to be in the NHL) that first year after Ozo was gone, and was clearly outshined by Van Ryn (who wasn't even an NHL regular prior to Florida) last NHL season, when Mike was brought in to be a support for him not be the eventual #1. Jaystine's been consistently mediocre...you want to excuse his first year because he was a rookie? Fine. But what about his second season? What about this season in the AHL? And the subsequent season in the playoffs? Come on now.
As far as the Thornton-Arnott comparison...no question Thornton underperformed his rookie year in comparison to Arnott; however, he didn't have a sophmore slump and improved greatly since whereas Arnott seemed to have peaked at 18/19 in his rookie year. It took Joe one season to get better, whereas it's taken Jaystine over 3 (since he's in the playoffs now). And please don't point out the "defenseman take longer to develop, blah, blah, blah" because Pitkanen is relatively the same age and has done just fine in both the NHL and AHL despite coming over from Europe. And also don't give me the "Pitkanen plays on a better team than Jay" because Jaystine's with Chicago now, not San Antonio/Florida. Pronger was also young and on a bad team in Hartford yet he produced good numbers for a rookie dman. Ozolinsh was young his rookie season with a bad San Jose team and he too produced points. The excuses for Jaystine are running short...and in my opinion, have run out. 18 games in the AHL since his last point? Come on now.
BTW...I don't let anything said on a message board get to me, so no worries.
Going like you then I guess I can say Morozov is better than Kovalchuk since he scored more points than Kovalchuk in Russia. And that the Norris Trophy should go to Bryan Berard instead of Scott Nierdemeyer last season since Berard scored 47 points in 58 games. Also Joe Juneau is alot better than Naslund because Joneau scored 100 points in his rookie season and Naslund did not scored 100 points until he was 27-29 years old. And Janne Niinimaa is better than Bobby Orr since Niinimaa scored more points in his rookie season then Bobby Orr. Lecavalier is equal good as Ribeiro since they score almost the same points in last NHL season. And Bryan McCabe should retire cause he cant even play in SEL, how will he do once NHL return? Jason Spezza is gonna win the Art Ross Trophy since he is leading the AHL in points. Pavel Rosa is gonna rip it off in NHL since he have done it in Russia the last season. Henrik Lundqvist is much better than Theodore, because look at their numbers in SEL. And let me close this with saying Paul Coffey is alot better than Lidstrom since Lidstrom cant even get close to Coffey numbers.
Man stats is so much accurate when determing a player, I wonder why Corey Locke did not got picked 1st overall in 2003? hmm weird.
Lauser3 said:he's underperformed in my opinion, but for you he's still probably the next Bobby Orr.
Quick question.
Is Braydon Coburn going to be an above average dman just like Jaybo? Cause he has "underperformed" and only has 1 assists in 12 playoff games. He must be an overhyped 1st rounder too.
According to you Jaybo is better than Pitkanen
Jaybo: 10 AHL goals this year.
Pitkanen: 6 AHL goals this year.
If you want to add playoff goals it's still 10-8.
I can twist around stats too to help my argument.
Roberto Luongo said:
We've already established your lack of logic in the Florida Panthers' thread already...I'm not going to enlighten you again. It's just a waste of time going over it again with a guy more interested in what Jay's eye color is than what he actually does on the ice. Capiche? Not to mention a guy that thinks Roberto Luongo is the best goaltender in the NHL right now. It's apples and oranges with you...leave the hockey talk to the grown folk ok? Thanks.
Wally112pac said:Quick question.
Is Braydon Coburn going to be an above average dman just like Jaybo? Cause he has "underperformed" and only has 1 assists in 12 playoff games. He must be an overhyped 1st rounder too.
According to you Jaybo is better than Pitkanen
Jaybo: 10 AHL goals this year.
Pitkanen: 6 AHL goals this year.
If you want to add playoff goals it's still 10-8.
I can twist around stats too to help my argument.
Coburn is a rookie defenseman for the first time in the pros with about 15 games of experience at the pro level so too soon to call. Bouwmeester on the other hand is practically in his 4th pro season since he's still playing in the playoffs. No comparison, however, he does have 2 more points than Bouwmeester in the last 15 games though. Go figure. Furthermore, Coburn is more a defensive defenseman who can contribute compared to Bouwmeester, an offensive defenseman who hasn't contributed any offense in the past 18 games.
Pitkanen also earned 30+ assists for over 40 points this season compared to Jaystine's what again? You want to count goals scored in the NHL as well? In less games played mind you? Pitkanen's still played better than Jaystine so far. Nice try though Wally.
Pretty much agreed with lauser about Bouwmeester. Season after season he continues to dissapoint yet his expectations are never lowered... He's just too passive. He doesn't carry a team, he plays at its level. It's not helping him either that he keeps on getting rewarded for doing nothing. World Cup... WCs, AHL all-star game, being loaned for the playoffs... Maybe if he didn't keep on getting these things handed to him he might step up a bit... Just my 2 cents.
Lauser3 said:
Weak reply.
You called all the stuff i said but it's the same crap you use to put down Jaybo.
Coburn is 1 year younger. According to your logic he should be dominating the AHL cause he's a high 1st rounder. But it's ok that he isn't cause he's not Jaybo. You only put down Jaybo.
Jaybo = Played for Canada in WC
Pitkanen = Healthy scratch for Finland in WC
It's funny how you don't acknowledge his point totals in his 2 NHL seasons.
82 games, 16 points
61 games, 20 points
You don't see an improvement there?
Only 6 goals total? WHO CARES? He's a defenseman not Ilya Kovalchuk. His job is to put up points, not necessarily put the puck in the net himself.
Please don't give me the secondary assist crap either. If you're goin to use that do the research for every NHL player and see what everyones point totals would be if you took it off.
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