Bouwmeester in Chicago

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Lauser3*

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Or maybe you should realize several people gave up on Jokinen before he eventually blossomed in Florida.

It's funny that you are blaming Bouwmeester for taking too much time and praising Jokinen, who had a very slow progression, in the same breath.

First off, anyone expecting Jokinen to score 30+ goals a season off the bat when he didn't score more than 15 (I think) in the FNL is smoking some heavy stuff. Jokinen however, compensated for his lack of scoring...he threw his body around, he took on a more checking/defensive role, and he even fought (which is rare for many European prospects) smart by taking on guys like Bill Guerin.

Expecting Bouwmeester to score more than 2 goals is not asking too much is it? BTW...I wasn't praising Jokinen, just giving him his due. I'll give Jaystine his due if/when he does it, but he hasn't yet. Laters.
 

Clash*

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Jan 18, 2003
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Lauser3 said:
You know...before calling out someone on their "stupidy," you probably should at least know how to spell the word don't you think? It's s-t-u-p-d-I-T-y. Got it? :biglaugh: That was priceless.
You might want to take your own advice there.... S-T-U-P-I-D-I-T-Y :dunno: I just love hypocrites.
 

Lauser3*

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ClashCitiRockr said:
You might want to take your own advice there.... S-T-U-P-I-D-I-T-Y :dunno: I just love hypocrites.

Hey, I guess I'm as bad as Vlad then. :)

Good one Clash...now, did that sly remark come "directly from Novak" as well? :biglaugh:
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Lauser3 said:
I know...right above you.

Considering you can't even follow basic conversations, can't assess the play of the players on your own favorite team, use non-sensical leaps of logic and like to point out the spelling of others by butchering the words, I don't think so.

But hey, you can always dream.
 

Lauser3*

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Considering you can't even follow basic conversations, can't assess the play of the players on your own favorite team, use non-sensical leaps of logic and like to point out the spelling of others by butchering the words, I don't think so.

But hey, you can always dream.


ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....don't be "stupidy" ok? :biglaugh:
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Feb 27, 2002
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Lauser3 said:
ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....don't be "stupidy" ok? :biglaugh:

Or do you mean ""s-t-u-p-d-I-T-y".

Never claimed I never made spelling errors when I quickly post. But you can bet your ass if I ever correct you on a word, I'll get it right.

Otherwise, I'd go into hiding.

As a matter of fact, I'd go into hiding if I had thought Bouwmeester could do half the things you expected from him but hey...

"Laters"
 

Lauser3*

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Or do you mean ""s-t-u-p-d-I-T-y".

Never claimed I never made spelling errors when I quickly post. But you can bet your ass if I ever correct you on a word, I'll get it right.

Otherwise, I'd go into hiding.

As a matter of fact, I'd go into hiding if I had thought Bouwmeester could do half the things you expected from him but hey...

"Laters"

Tell that to Keenan then Vlady, because I frankly could care less...if you're happy with mediocrity, so be it. Either way, we'll both find out in the future who was right and who was wrong...but as of now, Jaystine has underperformed. You want to keep bringing up excuses...have at it but that still does not change the FACT, that he has gone 22 (that's TWENTY-TWO) games without producing a single point. Not even a secondary assist. Feast on that...and please don't try to be like me; you just wouldn't cut it, ok "stupidy?" Laters.
 

Wondercarrot

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He really has no points in his last 22 games? That's pretty amazing(ly) brutal.
 

Lauser3*

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Wondercarrot said:
He really has no points in his last 22 games? That's pretty amazing(ly) brutal.

Actually, it's 23 games now after tonight's loss.
 

Jacob

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Feb 27, 2002
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That must have been tough to do. 18 games and not one lucky bounce? Not a fluke goal? Not even a phantom assist?

Did Bouwmeester ever leave his own zone?
 

Gardebut30

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Jun 8, 2004
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If you guys think Jay is such crap, I'm sure 29 other teams will be willing to take him off Florida's hands. Did MA Fleury have a great year, no. But why dump on Jay and not him? Both will be very good.
 

Jacob

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There is no question I would love to have Bouwmeester on my team.
 

Ratfinklives

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Just one final comment. He had a TERRIBLE game tonight in game four. Though to be fair almost the whole team did (Even Lehtonen let in one he shouldn't have). He carried the puck a few times but got hit quickly and gave it up. Got beat by Fedoruk wide once and Sim as well. People were skating by him pretty easily.

Honestly I'm not a fan of the whole clutching and grabbing and bumping away from the puck thing but the fact is to play at the pro level you have to do it at least a little. Bouwmeester hasn't done it in the times I've seen him play (a bunch on TV and like 4 times in person)

Pitkanen learned this this year and that is what I think is going to make him a bit more of an impact player when the NHL starts back up. You can even look at their penalty minutes numbers. Pitkanens are staggeringly higher because he FINALLY started to play with a little snarl in his game. He protected the front of the net well tonight and made sure no one got to Niittymaki without getting a stick somewhere they didn't want it.

Bouwmeester sticks out like a sore thumb sometimes though because he just has such good skills. It's almost like he's afraid to be really good. He just sort of lets himself fall back with rest of the team, never taking his oppurunities to be great.

Personally I've loved him since he was drafted. When the Flyers traded up to four I hoped and hoped he would fall there instead of Pitkanen. Now though it seems I was wrong, while I don't think Jay-Bo is a bust he needs to find a way to get mean. If he does he will be a scary player, until them people will continue to skate by him (although he is fast enough to catch them).
 

Lauser3*

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gardebut30 said:
If you guys think Jay is such crap, I'm sure 29 other teams will be willing to take him off Florida's hands. Did MA Fleury have a great year, no. But why dump on Jay and not him? Both will be very good.

Last I checked...Fleury was a year younger and played a different position (goalie) as opposed to defenseman (like Jaystine) correct? Now...if I'm not mistaken, goaltenders take even much longer to develop than defensemen or forwards do right? Not to mention that Bouwmeester is property of my favorite team (Florida Panthers) while Fleury is not. There you go...3 reasons as to why I did not dump on MA Fleury and why I did on Bouwmeester. As far as trading Jaystine goes....I'll trade Jaystine for MA Fleury straight up, no problem. While Jaystine's stock is still believed to be high by those 29 other teams you claim. If he keeps playing the way he's been playing thus far though...we might be stuck with him (like Biron). Laters.
 

FlyersFan10*

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Here's the problem with Bouwmeester (at least how I see it anyways). When Bouwmeester was drafted, he was expected to be this big time defenseman who was going to lead his team back into the playoffs. His skating was supposed to remind people that he was a possible Bobby Orr clone and that he had offensive skills that rivaled Paul Coffey's (we'll never see another Paul Coffey again - he was a rare breed).

The problem was that expectations were too high for an 18 year old kid. Remember, that, 18 year old KID. He shouldn't have been playing in the NHL. He should have been playing at least one final season in junior and a year in the AHL. Rick Dudley AND Mike Keenan are to blame for how they have handled his development. They rushed him along when they shouldn't have. If this is going to be the crown jewel of your organization, you do everything possible to insulate that crown jewel and ensure it remains that. They did neither.

First, Dudley deals most of the veterans away so that he can save Cohen some money. While we're on the subject of Rick Dudley, has anyone noticed that any team he has left has shown marked improvement a season or two after he has been dispatched? If anything, Rick Dudley is someone who has managed to get others to buy into his own hype. He is not a GM and I wouldn't even say he's a great evaluator of talent. He is someone who has been real lucky so far. Eventually, that luck will run out and people will see what kind of a farce Rick Dudley the GM really is.

Anyways, back to Bouwmeester. Fact of the matter is that Dudley traded away most of the veterans, or insulation if you will, that most teams provide for young players. If Bouwmeester were in Philadelphia or some other place like that, do you think he'd get top minute ice time? Doubt it. He would have been brought along slowly and would have had to earn his ice time. So, the big mistake Dudley made is that he cleared out any kind of real veteran presence on defense and left Bouwmeester to fend for himself.

This brings me to part two.......Mike Keenan. Clearly, Mike had to know and see that Jay was not ready for the NHL. So what does Mike do? Instead of having Jay earn his ice time or even see about sending Jay back to junior or the AHL, he gives him even more ice time. More ice time to make mistakes, more ice time to make mental errors, more ice time to just screw up and have everyone call for his head. Even when the vets were traded, Bouwmeester should still have been no more than a 4th/5th defenseman on the team. But, Mike Keenan has a history of killing young defensemen and it isn't surprising what is going on here.

However, there is some good news to come from all of this. Jacques Martin is a miracle worker. When he came to Ottawa, it was a complete mess. It took him a year and a half, but he got things straightened out. It's probably going to take him the same amount of time in Florida, but the man is a proven commodity who knows how to coach. You can bet that one of his first things will be to help get Jay's head straightened out. Yeah, 24 games without a single point is too much and you can bet that Jacques saw plenty of problems with Jay's play. You can also bet that Jacques has a solid plan in place to get Jay back on track.

Remember, this is what, a 21 - 22 year old man? He's going to be fine. Now that there's a decent coaching staff in place, Jay will get things turned around. In a year or two from now, no one will even be discussing this and people will probably be raving about how great Jay is.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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FlyersFan10 said:
The problem was that expectations were too high for an 18 year old kid. Remember, that, 18 year old KID. He shouldn't have been playing in the NHL. He should have been playing at least one final season in junior and a year in the AHL. Rick Dudley AND Mike Keenan are to blame for how they have handled his development. They rushed him along when they shouldn't have.

Maybe you are right but I don't know about another year of junior. I really dislike the elligibility rules for the AHL.

I think there is a number of prospects that are beyond the CHL level but could use some AHL seasoning. Phaneuf is probably a good example this past season. Could probably have used a new challenge but the rules don't allow it.

Doesn't look like those rules will change anytime soon, unfortunately.
 

Jacob

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Feb 27, 2002
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The easy answer is to say so-and-so was rushed. If he had played another year in junior, the argument now would be that Bouwmeester stagnated.

Bouwmeester looked really good in his rookie year, IMO.
 

Roger's Pancreas*

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Maybe you are right but I don't know about another year of junior. I really dislike the elligibility rules for the AHL.

I think there is a number of prospects that are beyond the CHL level but could use some AHL seasoning. Phaneuf is probably a good example this past season. Could probably have used a new challenge but the rules don't allow it.

Doesn't look like those rules will change anytime soon, unfortunately.

I have to agree with you there. The AHL is supposed to be a league for development but at twenty years old some players are beginning to develop habits.

The other rule that's just as ridiculous is the veteran rule. Each team is only allowed to have X number of veterans and are supposed to fill the holes with "rookies". These rookies that are used are future AHLers who will only see the NHL on call up duty. These scrubs are taking time for development from the players with more talent but because of the rule they're making the cut.

It's one of the reasons that most people don't follow the AHL as religiously as this year, myself included. Last year the Phantoms had three prospects playing for them while this year there was seven prospects and one Pitkanen. If I'm paying to see the minors I want to see the young guns playing.
 

FlyersFan10*

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Here's the thing though with Bouwmeester. I don't care what anyone says, no way that a 20 year old is ready to be the number 1 d-man on his team. Look around the league at most of the number 1 guys on all their respective teams. Was Chara or Redden a number 1 at 20? Nope. Was Bryan Berrard? Nope. Was Jason Smith or Eric Brewer? No. Was Scott Niedermeyer? Nope. Was Pavel Kubina or Darryl Sydor? Nope. I hope everyone here sees a trend by this. None of these guys became number 1 guys until they were in their mid 20s. Same with Rob Blake, Chris Pronger, Nicklas Lidstrom, etc.......

Bouwmeester was thrust into the role of number 1 way too early. Both Keenan and Dudley need to be blamed for that. Keenan did it more out of necessity because Dudley traded away all the veterans, Dudley did it to save a few bucks with regards to Ozolinsh.

I'm going to say that Bouwmeester will be better though with Jacques Martin to guide him. Martin has done wonders with guys like Phillips, Redden, Chara, Volchenkov, etc......I'm pretty sure he'll do a good job with Jay and get his game straightened out. Let's remember that Florida really does have a nice core when you consider they have three cornerstones already in place - Luongo, Bouwmeester, Jokinen. As long as Keenan doesn't go trade happy, things will be ok.
 

Pepper

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Aug 30, 2004
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The AHL eligibility rule looks even more weird with the fact that Europeans and NCAA players can play in the AHL even if they haven't turned 20...
 
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