Bouwmeester in Chicago

[Lauser3*]

Four million dollars for a player scorin .5 ppg and makin the defensive blunders he was wasn't puttin up points when he was a minus 16 translating into 42 goals bein scored with him on the ice. Essentially said, he had almost twice as many goals scored against him as he had an involvement in bein scored. Yeah, he was helpin a whole hell of a lot. Keep tellin only half the story and tryin to slander anything during the Dudley era, because that's what this boils down to with you. Dudley drafted Bouwmeester, and any other pick doesn't matter in this discussion.

And Bouwmeester was worth his 1.25 million or whatever it was he was earning at the NHL? As for me continuing to tell "half the story" part...you're one to talk considering you forgot about Ozo being at the top end of the scoring for Florida.

This has nothing to do with Dudley drafting him; this has to do with Bouwmeester, a HIGHLY TOUTED FIRST ROUND PICK underperforming. Period. Besides, you know I'm very psyched about Anthony Stewart, despite him being drafted by Dufus, which decreases his chances of making the NHL greatly. But hey, maybe Anthony will be the exception...which I hope he is, but if he doesn't cut it, then I won't be very surprised either. Bring on the excuses though...I know you'll think of something. Laters.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

Apples and oranges, but what was Bouwmeester's salary after all the bonuses added up?

Just his base salary...he never earned any of his bonuses because he never eclipsed enough of the categories he needed to. So the first 2 seasons of his pro career he was earning about $1.2 million and I don't think he was eligible for any bonuses while playing in the AHL but he struggled in San Antonio so it doesn't matter.

I notice though that Lauser3 has conveniently avoided a question asked of him. As I said before to you that you're a hypocrite for doing the same thing that you complain about with others. Answer the question as to why Ozolinsh was really traded because I'm sure you're answer will just seem like excuses too.

 

[Lauser3*]

Just his base salary...he never earned any of his bonuses because he never eclipsed enough of the categories he needed to. So the first 2 seasons of his pro career he was earning about $1.2 million and I don't think he was eligible for any bonuses while playing in the AHL but he struggled in San Antonio so it doesn't matter.

I notice though that Lauser3 has conveniently avoided a question asked of him. As I said before to you that you're a hypocrite for doing the same thing that you complain about with others. Answer the question as to why Ozolinsh was really traded because I'm sure you're answer will just seem like excuses too.

How are the math lessons coming along Coolburn? Think of yet another new screenname to come up with?

As for the hypocrite remark...you're one to talk...considering you claim not to support the Panthers' management/ownership or whatever, yet you manage to find yourself on EVERY board that is affiliated with the Panthers, attend home games, watch them on tv, which all indirectly (since you claim not to pay for them) helps support the team and in a sense, the same "idiot" you claim responsible for the mess in Florida...Alan Cohen. The same idiot who has invested millions to this team and has last probably more than twice what he's put in yet continues to be around. Basically, he has more say than you or I will ever have...so deal with it. Furthermore, you calling someone (ANYONE really) a hypocrite is hysterical.

Whatever excuses you want to throw in for Ozo being moved, does not change the fact that Bouwmeester was expected to fill his skates. Be it Keenan/Dudley/Cohen or whoever made that call...Bouwmeester failed at it. Period. Or are you claiming Ozo wasn't move because of Jaystine as well? Please...

Like I said though...keep those excuses coming. Laters.

 

[Jacob]

he never earned any of his bonuses because he never eclipsed enough of the categories he needed to.

Are you sure? I remember he got a pretty big chunk of money in a signing bonus alone, and his bonuses were the ballooning-type where, if he hit 2 of 5 statistical benchmarks, he automatically gets paid for all 5.

Heck, even Fleury likely would have gotten his performance bonuses. And his numbers were terrible.

 

[Crossbar]

Are you sure? I remember he got a pretty big chunk of money in a signing bonus alone, and his bonuses were the ballooning-type where, if he hit 2 of 5 statistical benchmarks, he automatically gets paid for all 5.

Yeah I remember reading the article that said Jay did not reach it (I believe he was supposed to hit 3 or 5 goals, 15 assists for 20 points) since his 1st season he notched 4 goals, 12 assists for 16 points, a minus-29 and only 14 PIM (no fighting majors), as well as the Panthers not reaching the post-season.

 

[Vagrant]

So what, then, made him a top 3 selection in the draft?

As i've said just in my last post, he has a great skill set. That is what the scouts saw in him that wasn't in the boxscore or anywhere else for that matter. He had a great frame, the skill set of a forward, and a great appreciation for the defensive ice. That and the fact that the potential was there for him to place large point totals. Not already there mind you, but the potential.

That being said, the scouts probably had a lot of wishful thinking about this young man that wasn't entirelly fair to him. Bret Hedican is one of the best defensive minded defensemen for the Hurricanes and he's fast, has a decent shot, and has pretty good passing ability. Does this translate to points? Not many at all. Is he still an effective defenseman? I'd say so. Points and skill set are two differant things, even in forwards. Slick skaters and puck handlers like Maxim Afinogenov and Stanislav Chistov should probably be two of the NHL's biggest offensive threats based on their speed and fancy stickhandling but they aren't for intangible reasons that can hardly be explained. This applies to defenseman in the same respect.

 

[Clash*]

Are you sure? I remember he got a pretty big chunk of money in a signing bonus alone, and his bonuses were the ballooning-type where, if he hit 2 of 5 statistical benchmarks, he automatically gets paid for all 5.

Heck, even Fleury likely would have gotten his performance bonuses. And his numbers were terrible.

He had to hit four of five or six categories for his bonuses to kick in, and I don't think he hit even one.

 

[Lauser3*]

0 points in 21 games now for Jaystine...

 

[Lauser3*]

0 points in 21 games now for Jaystine...

22 games now and still no points.

 

[Dave is a killer]

Go Phantoms!

 

[Liquidrage*]

22 games now and still no points.

Why are you so hard on him? It seems personal to you. I'm not really objecting, just curious. Did he run over your dog or something?

 

[Lauser3*]

Why are you so hard on him? It seems personal to you. I'm not really objecting, just curious. Did he run over your dog or something?

No, he'd be dead then.

Seriously though...I have a problem with 6-4 and 219 lbs defensemen that play as if they were 5-6 and 150; that were drafted extremely high and making millions yet don't produce; get rewarded by getting sent to a playoff team despite playing below average and sometimes not even trying on his own farm team; get 1st dman minutes and make an actual first dman (Ozolinsh) expendable but then don't fill in like they are supposed to; get shown up by guys either lucky to be in the NHL or rookies or not even full-timers but still gets praised for having "great skating ability" and "hockey smarts"...I don't want a figure skater out there; I want a real hockey player who gives a crap and tries EVERY game not when he feels like it or when he's in a better situation. Aside from that...I have nothing against him, and it's definitely not personal since he's a pretty good guy off the ice. Personal would be my feelings for Kristian Huselius but I won't get into that, since he's already tarnished his own reputation already. How's that? Laters.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

get rewarded by getting sent to a playoff team despite playing below average and sometimes not even trying on his own farm team;

The Panthers didn't send him to Chicago to reward him.

As for him playing below average and not trying, how many San Antonio games did you witness?

get 1st dman minutes and make an actual first dman (Ozolinsh) expendable but then don't fill in like they are supposed to;

You've got issues with the wrong person. It's not Jay Bouwmeester's fault if Ozo was traded.

And as it's already been pointed out, you have to be pretty damn uneducated on hockey matters to think this guy could "fill in" at that time.

get shown up by guys either lucky to be in the NHL or rookies or not even full-timers but still gets praised for having "great skating ability" and "hockey smarts"...I don't want a figure skater out there; I want a real hockey player who gives a crap and tries EVERY game not when he feels like it or when he's in a better situation.

I agree that effective hockey players are best. Yet, I've been satisfied with Bouwmeester when I saw him. I can't speak of his AHL season, though. But in the NHL and world tournaments, I thought he did well, and didn't look like a figure skater.

But hey, maybe I should reconsider and take the "opinion" of some dude who expects a 19 years old to be a legit #1 defenseman because his clueless management was running a PR campaign

 

[Roger's Pancreas*]

But hey, maybe I should reconsider and take the "opinion" of some dude who expects a 19 years old to be a legit #1 defenseman because his clueless management was running a PR campaign

Your missing the point of this thread altogether. It's not expecting Jaybo to become an elite or even legitimate number one defenceman at nineteen. What it is about is the fact that he was drafted third overall for his great hockey sense and he's being outscored in the playoffs by a goaltender.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Your missing the point of this thread altogether.

You probably did not read the thread then. Everything I just replied to is directly related to this thread.

What it is about is the fact that he was drafted third overall for his great hockey sense and he's being outscored in the playoffs by a goaltender.

Never heard that Jay Bouwmeester was drafted for his hockey sense and quite frankly, it's not his best asset at all, IMO.

The thing about his AHL totals is certainly not a positive. Of course it would be cool if he had a crapload of points and all. However, it doesn't look like we're getting
many reports on his actual play in the AHL.

Consequently, I prefer to fall back on what I have actually seen of Jay Bouwmeester against top competition, and I am not worried yet as I think it was satisfying.

 

[Lauser3*]

The Panthers didn't send him to Chicago to reward him.

As for him playing below average and not trying, how many San Antonio games did you witness?



You've got issues with the wrong person. It's not Jay Bouwmeester's fault if Ozo was traded.

And as it's already been pointed out, you have to be pretty damn uneducated on hockey matters to think this guy could "fill in" at that time.



I agree that effective hockey players are best. Yet, I've been satisfied with Bouwmeester when I saw him. I can't speak of his AHL season, though. But in the NHL and world tournaments, I thought he did well, and didn't look like a figure skater.

But hey, maybe I should reconsider and take the "opinion" of some dude who expects a 19 years old to be a legit #1 defenseman because his clueless management was running a PR campaign

I'm sorry...I could've sworn someone said they weren't taking me seriously anymore? Guess I was mistaken. Out of curiosity though, how many games did you watch him play in San Antonio to say otherwise? I didn't watch him play in San Antonio but I did follow his progress (or lack thereof) after every game and read about his performances from SA fans, who weren't exactly upset to see him go btw. Weiss was a different story. Add to this that his own coach in SA called him out in the papers and the SA management has done so as well in later interviews...and I must ask you: you don't think it's a reward to send him to an organization headed to the playoffs instead of keeping him on a losing team when he was underperforming then as well? Um...okay.

You know what though...I had no idea you were an NHL GM, Coach, or Scout even? I guess you should have been the one to ask to make the decision on whether or not Bouwmeester was ready to be a #1. I mean...why should we take the "opinion" of a coach (now GM) who has his name on the Stanley Cup, a former player turned coach turned GM (though not a fav of mine) and back to a scout now, over some "dude's opinion" who is "satisfied" with Bouwmeester? I mean, whatever were we thinking really?

Your excuses now please?

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I'm sorry...I could've sworn someone said they weren't taking me seriously anymore?

Well, newsflash: I don't.

And just the fact I need to point it out says all there needs to be said about your perspicacity.

I guess you should have been the one to ask to make the decision on whether or not Bouwmeester was ready to be a #1. I mean...why should we take the "opinion" of a coach (now GM) who has his name on the Stanley Cup, a former player turned coach turned GM (though not a fav of mine) and back to a scout now

Because it is the right one?

Aren't you the guy who's been whining all thread long about how Bouwmeester did not play like a NHL #1 defenseman following the trade?

Besides, I seriously doubt Mike Keenan ever thought he was going to be an efficient #1 immediately following the Ozo trade. Whatever comments he allegedly made (I have never read them), they were probably hype that you bought and read way too much into. Anyway, I've got great respect for Mike Keenan, but whatever his actual opinion of Jay Bouwmeester was, time has proven that Jay Bouwmeester was not ready to be a legit #1 NHL D.

 

[Lauser3*]

Well, newsflash: I don't.

And just the fact I need to point it out says all there needs to be said about your perspicacity.

Oh, did I hit a nerve now? Obviously you do, otherwise you wouldn't be coming back here to respond after claiming you didn't care.

Because it is the right one?

Aren't you the guy who's been whining all thread long about how Bouwmeester did not play like a NHL #1 defenseman following the trade?

He didn't...so what is your point?

Besides, I seriously doubt Mike Keenan ever thought he was going to be an efficient #1 immediately following the Ozo trade. Whatever comments he allegedly made (I have never read them), they were probably hype that you bought and read way too much into. Anyway, I've got great respect for Mike Keenan, but whatever his actual opinion of Jay Bouwmeester was, time has proven that Jay Bouwmeester was not ready to be a legit #1 NHL D.

I see...so why did Keenan give Bouwmeester the most ice time out of all the defenseman, after the Ozolinsh trade, if he didn't expect him to fill in or be the #1 guy? It wasn't hype...it's common sense...if your #1 guy (Ozo) is traded and no one is brought in to replace him, then someone on the team is expected to take over and be the #1. If Bouwmeester was given the most ice time of all the remaining defenseman wouldn't that indicate to you that he's the #1 guy after the trade? If not him...then who was, Mr. Sleuth? Was it Majesky? Biron? Lilja? Please....

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

I see...so why did Keenan give Bouwmeester the most ice time out of all the defenseman, after the Ozolinsh trade, if he didn't expect him to fill in or be the #1 guy? It wasn't hype...it's common sense...if your #1 guy (Ozo) is traded and no one is brought in to replace him, then someone on the team is expected to take over and be the #1. If Bouwmeester was given the most ice time of all the remaining defenseman wouldn't that indicate to you that he's the #1 guy after the trade? If not him...then who was, Mr. Sleuth? Was it Majesky? Biron? Lilja? Please....

If Bouwmeester was the #1 d-man, then Keenan made Biron the #2 as that was the pairing. I think that shows you how screwed up Keenan's talent-o-meter really is. I'm sure you agreed with that pairing too right because Keenan can do no wrong.

Making Bouwmeester a #1 wasn't about hype or common sense or Bouwmeester being ready to be #1...and you pointed it out with your last question: there was no one on the team that could be a #1 d-man. You can blame the owner for not wanting to pony up any money to acquire one for that problem. Dudley was given the task by Cohen of cutting salary so he traded Ozo's $4 million (and also traded Yuskevich as well to cut salary). Bouwmeester should've had a veteran influence like Robert Svhela but the org decided to nickel and dime him so he faux retired in order to get traded. Young d-men need good veterans around them to learn from...that's how they become #1's more quickly.

 

[Roger's Pancreas*]

You probably did not read the thread then. Everything I just replied to is directly related to this thread.

Dancing Tree was the one who started the playoff point counting and then so did the other posters. Any recent posts are just a continuum of the idea that Jay-bo is playing like a soft defensive defenseman. The original idea was to watch him improve his defensive game and he has, but it's time to combine the two styles when appropriate.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

You either think Jay Bo was a #1 or you don't.

Laughing at me when I'm saying Jay Bo wasn't ready to be a #1 when:

A: Further events have shown he did not play like a #1
B: You've been crying about the fact he did not play like a #1 for several pages

Makes you beat records of stupidy on this website, which is kind of a difficult thing to do.

He didn't...so what is your point?

For the slower among us: He thus wasn't ready to be a #1. Hence, why my opinion is the right one. Hence why you laughing stupidly makes you look...

I see...so why did Keenan give Bouwmeester the most ice time out of all the defenseman, after the Ozolinsh trade, if he didn't expect him to fill in or be the #1 guy? It wasn't hype...it's common sense...if your #1 guy (Ozo) is traded and no one is brought in to replace him, then someone on the team is expected to take over and be the #1.

Common sense says there is supply, not just demand. If you've got a smurf lineup and one huge power forward, and you trade your power forward, someone isn't going to grow 5 inches, pack 50 pounds and start playing like a wrecking machine just because it would be nice if it happened.

There are numerous teams in this league who have holes. Whatever the reason was to trade Ozo, nobody is in right mind would have expected Bouwmeester to step up with the kind of performance you wanted out of him at that time.

And I'd very much like for you to provide quotes of what Keenan expected from Bouwmeester.

If Bouwmeester was given the most ice time of all the remaining defenseman wouldn't that indicate to you that he's the #1 guy after the trade? If not him...then who was, Mr. Sleuth? Was it Majesky? Biron? Lilja? Please....

But that's not what we are debating. We both agree that Bouwmeester got a huge share of the minutes.

We're debating whether Bouwmeester was having the kind of impact a true #1 NHL defenseman should have or not.

You say he didn't. I agree. And nobody in his right mind should have expected him to do so at that point in time.

This is the part where it gets all confused and you shove Keenan's pedigree to show how smart he is and where you say he allegedly expected Jay Bouwmeester to kick ass and how it didn't happen and how I have no idea what I am talking about when I say he couldn't do so even though you are rambling about how he wasn't.

 

[Lauser3*]

If Bouwmeester was the #1 d-man, then Keenan made Biron the #2 as that was the pairing. I think that shows you how screwed up Keenan's talent-o-meter really is. I'm sure you agreed with that pairing too right because Keenan can do no wrong.

Still posting without reading first I see. When will you ever learn? Did I not post not too long ago that I felt rewarding Bouwmeester by sending him to Chicago (a Keenan move) was a mistake or not? As for Biron...you have to play with what you are given and unfortunately for Keenan, Dudley didn't give him much to work with. Of course Biron (who was signed to a multi year deal by Dudley correct?), despite all his faults (and there are many) still scored more goals than Bouwmeester last season. As did Hordichuk, Odelein, Ritchie, and Trnka. Go figure.

Making Bouwmeester a #1 wasn't about hype or common sense or Bouwmeester being ready to be #1...and you pointed it out with your last question: there was no one on the team that could be a #1 d-man. You can blame the owner for not wanting to pony up any money to acquire one for that problem. Dudley was given the task by Cohen of cutting salary so he traded Ozo's $4 million (and also traded Yuskevich as well to cut salary). Bouwmeester should've had a veteran influence like Robert Svhela but the org decided to nickel and dime him so he faux retired in order to get traded. Young d-men need good veterans around them to learn from...that's how they become #1's more quickly.

You can put blame on whoever you want, but in the end the one who (supposedly) had it in him to produce and ultimately didn't was Bouwmeester. Not Cohen, not Keenan, not even Dudley. Bouwmeester had a veteran influence in Ozolinsh his first year and Lyle Odelein his last NHL season. Veterans were there, they may not have been plentiful or even great, but they were there. Hamhuis didn't have a whole lot of stellar NHL experienced defenseman around him in Nashville but he still managed to produce did he not? Olli Jokinen didn't have a power forward to look upto when he first joined the Panthers, but he turned out ok right? I really have to question Jaystine's character now after writing this actually.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Olli Jokinen didn't have a power forward to look upto when he first joined the Panthers, but he turned out ok right? I really have to question Jaystine's character now after writing this actually.

Or maybe you should realize several people gave up on Jokinen before he eventually blossomed in Florida.

It's funny that you are blaming Bouwmeester for taking too much time and praising Jokinen, who had a very slow progression, in the same breath.

 

[Wally112pac]

Watching game 2 of the finals now.

Jbo looks great. First pass is second to none.

Him being soft is a myth. He doesn't hammer forwards but he's not shy about contact. He'll hit you if you have the puck. He's also improved his play in front of his own net from last year.

The Wolves had a 5 on 3 in the middle of the 2nd period. The 3 point man they used were Corvo, Roche and Larose.

He's attacked in the offensive zone a few times. A couple times puttin a shot towards the net. Almost won the game in the final minute but his shot went wide cause he was covered.

I know the game is taped but i watched it anyway. Wanted to see how Jbo is really doing. He's looked fabulous.

 

[Lauser3*]

You either think Jay Bo was a #1 or you don't.

Laughing at me when I'm saying Jay Bo wasn't ready to be a #1 when:

A: Further events have shown he did not play like a #1
B: You've been crying about the fact he did not play like a #1 for several pages

I didn't like Jay in Juniors and I didn't want us (the Panthers) to draft him either. The fact that we could have had Lehtonen, Nash (who I wanted), and even Pitkanen still bothers me today. I don't think he's a #1 either and agree he wasn't ready to be but he was expected to be by people that know more than you or I about the sport. He didn't step up and that's life. You want to defend his underperformance...feel free to. I on the otherhand, will continue to call it like I see it. It's not crying when you're pointing out facts: he has 0 points in 22 straight games. He was expected and put to be our #1 by Keenan, who challenges players all the time and if you respect him as you say you do you should know this already. Some players respond (Pronger, Thornton, Jokinen), while others don't (Bouwmeester). He's weak (both mentally and physically) and seems to prefer being babied...maybe a change of scenery will do him some good (like in Chicago with Dudley, who can continue breast feeding him up there as well).

Makes you beat records of stupidy on this website, which is kind of a difficult thing to do.

You know...before calling out someone on their "stupidy," you probably should at least know how to spell the word don't you think? It's s-t-u-p-d-I-T-y. Got it? That was priceless.

For the slower among us: He thus wasn't ready to be a #1. Hence, why my opinion is the right one. Hence why you laughing stupidly makes you look...

Tell that to Keenan, Dudley, the scouts, and Cohen, who all thought he was ready to enter the NHL right out of the draft and become the #1 guy after trading Ozolinsh. Hmmm....I wonder who is too slow to see that still?

Common sense says there is supply, not just demand. If you've got a smurf lineup and one huge power forward, and you trade your power forward, someone isn't going to grow 5 inches, pack 50 pounds and start playing like a wrecking machine just because it would be nice if it happened.

No, but someone is always expected to step up. Some step up on their own, others are forced to, and then there are others that just don't. That's the difference between leaders and followers. Bouwmeester would obviously fall in the latter category. Bouwmeester was our expected #1 guy but he didn't show so someone else filled in (Van Ryn). You don't find it particularly comical that Keenan (who loves playing mind games) went out and signed Sean Hill and Joel Kwiatkowski (who showed up Bouwmeester in San Antonio) during the offseason while still having Van Ryn, Bouwmeester, Krajicek, and to a lesser extent Novak on the team? Come on now...wake up.

There are numerous teams in this league who have holes. Whatever the reason was to trade Ozo, nobody is in right mind would have expected Bouwmeester to step up with the kind of performance you wanted out of him at that time.

Right...and the Panthers have more than most. Lack of depth in goal (Lehtonen would have solved that one), lack of scoring (Rick Nash anyone?), and our defense was supposed to be better than before (Pitkanen was still available when we got Bouwmeester). Like I said...if Keenan didnt expect him to step up...why did he give him Ozo's minutes? Why was the San Antonio management disappointed in his overall performance? Oh but don't fret...Vlad is "satisfied" with his performance, so all is well in Pantherland. Phew...

And I'd very much like for you to provide quotes of what Keenan expected from Bouwmeester.

You want quotes from a guy notoriously known for lying to media? Good one Vlad. All you have to look at is the # of minutes Jaystine was playing after Ozolinsh was traded to see what Keenan was expecting of him. I believe one of the beatwriters around here mentioned how Keenan really scolded Bouwmeester during practices (while praising him in front of the media), so there were definitely higher expectations coming from Iron Mike.

But that's not what we are debating. We both agree that Bouwmeester got a huge share of the minutes.

He got #1 defenseman minutes...accept that fact already.

We're debating whether Bouwmeester was having the kind of impact a true #1 NHL defenseman should have or not.
You say he didn't. I agree. And nobody in his right mind should have expected him to do so at that point in time.

This is the part where it gets all confused and you shove Keenan's pedigree to show how smart he is and where you say he allegedly expected Jay Bouwmeester to kick ass and how it didn't happen and how I have no idea what I am talking about when I say he couldn't do so even though you are rambling about how he wasn't.

I didn't say Keenan allegedly expected Bouwmeester to kick ass...it's obvious Keenan expected more out of him if he's giving him the most ice time out of just about everyone on the team (especially over all of the other defensemen). But I guess highly touted and drafted players shouldn't be expected to produce right away even if all you're asking for is 7 goals and 25 points since he averaged 13 goals and 50 points in Juniors? I guess I should be okay with the fact that Bouwmeester is now a (soft) defensive defenseman with questionable offense but hey, he's got a lot of "potential" though. Give me a break. I'd cut him some slack if he at least played like a defensive defenseman should...hit, fight, protect your goalie. If he fought a Joe Thornton for running Luongo or Hagman but lost the fight, I would still cut him some slack for not scoring because he took a guy of Thornton's calibre off the ice with him for 5 minutes. He's not going to score goals? Fine, but at least compensate for that lack of scoring by becoming a complete player not a one dimensional and soft defensive defenseman that doesn't even score. Is that too much to ask? If so, then we really wasted the pick on him kid when we could have gotten Lehtonen, Nash, or Pitkanen instead.