Blues Trade Proposals 2020-21

[Reality Czech]

So is this where we are at as a franchise? Are we going to walk away from top UFA's like Pietrangelo and Jones, and settle for the next best thing like Krug and Faulk? (Not that there's anything wrong with them!) Sorry, but I am somewhat dissatisfied with that. And now we might not be able to afford Parayko. Wonderful. I am not attacking you Brockon, you are one of the posters I respect most on this board. I am just not happy with the direction this franchise is taking. I am guessing this post will bother some members. Whatever. Flame away.

Is it really fair to say they "walked away" from Petro? Perhaps Army puts a higher priority on guys who actually want to be here. He could cross his fingers and hope that the top guys will want to play here, but I'm guessing that he went with Faulk and Krug because they offer long-term certainty. Pretty much every other team in the league will be chasing guys like Petro and Jones, so the chances of signing those guys are much lower unless a team just gives them whatever they want. And even then it's no guarantee, because the player might have his own reasons for wanting/not wanting to play somewhere. I'm sure Parayko will be a top priority even if it costs us a player like Schwartz. Championship teams don't stay together long as guys will naturally be looking for a raise at some point.

If a team wants to chase high-salary guys then it affects the overall team depth. The Blues are one of the deepest teams in the whole league, so chasing the top guys would require us to restructure our whole team makeup. I can understand why fans might disagree with some individual moves Army has made, but I'm not sure what other direction would give us a better chance to win.

 

[simon IC]

Is it really fair to say they "walked away" from Petro? Perhaps Army puts a higher priority on guys who actually want to be here. He could cross his fingers and hope that the top guys will want to play here, but I'm guessing that he went with Faulk and Krug because they offer long-term certainty. Pretty much every other team in the league will be chasing guys like Petro and Jones, so the chances of signing those guys are much lower unless a team just gives them whatever they want. And even then it's no guarantee, because the player might have his own reasons for wanting/not wanting to play somewhere. I'm sure Parayko will be a top priority even if it costs us a player like Schwartz. Championship teams don't stay together long as guys will naturally be looking for a raise at some point.

If a team wants to chase high-salary guys then it affects the overall team depth. The Blues are one of the deepest teams in the whole league, so chasing the top guys would require us to restructure our whole team makeup. I can understand why fans might disagree with some individual moves Army has made, but I'm not sure what other direction would give us a better chance to win.

Well said. I have to disagree about Faulk and Krug's long-term certainty, however. I am not convinced either contract will look so good in a couple of years.

 

[Ranksu]

Is it really fair to say they "walked away" from Petro? Perhaps Army puts a higher priority on guys who actually want to be here. He could cross his fingers and hope that the top guys will want to play here, but I'm guessing that he went with Faulk and Krug because they offer long-term certainty. Pretty much every other team in the league will be chasing guys like Petro and Jones, so the chances of signing those guys are much lower unless a team just gives them whatever they want. And even then it's no guarantee, because the player might have his own reasons for wanting/not wanting to play somewhere. I'm sure Parayko will be a top priority even if it costs us a player like Schwartz. Championship teams don't stay together long as guys will naturally be looking for a raise at some point.

If a team wants to chase high-salary guys then it affects the overall team depth. The Blues are one of the deepest teams in the whole league, so chasing the top guys would require us to restructure our whole team makeup. I can understand why fans might disagree with some individual moves Army has made, but I'm not sure what other direction would give us a better chance to win.

I have to fix your post. Pietro wanted to stay and retire in Bluenote. It came down for Army didnt want to give security for Pietro and his family. Pietro take less money for security. You can think of what you value more. Business vision or family friendly and community first vision. Army draw the line this is just business. Bit crazy St Louis Blues is more business type of organization vs Vegas which as a city is place where money talks. I think that just tells a lot of Vegas as franchise and Blues.

I bet every Blues players who are spending UFA's really think of what Army did with Pietro. I quarantee it has affect on players decisions how limited leverage they have and what others teams could value them.

I view this will eventually bite back in Army's direction and Blues will lose some more key players just for this manner.

 

[Spektre]

@
Ranksu

Since Buffalo sucks like always let's make a trade to get Eichel

 

[Reality Czech]

Well said. I have to disagree about Faulk and Krug's long-term certainty, however. I am not convinced either contract will look so good in a couple of years.

I guess I was talking financial certainty as much as their performance on the ice, but of course both are important. Having two guys locked up gives Army a clearer picture of our salary cap and team needs 5+ years into the future. If you want to land top talent, you need to go long-term most of the time. I'm not saying Faulk and Krug would be my first choices to lock up lock-term, but I think it often comes down to what players are available rather than the team you would want in a perfect world. We will need to lock down a couple of defense-first guys in the future to balance it out, and hopefully Parayko sticks around.

On an unrelated note, I just noticed how many goalies are UFA after this year. Besides Binner, there is Rask, Anderson, Rinne, Grubauer, Dubnyk, Raanta, Mrazek, Rittich, Halak and several other quality backups that will hit the market. We could see quite the goalie carousel next offseason!

 

[Ranksu]

Rask will most likely retire.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I don’t understand speculating what Armstrong will do, then getting upset about your speculation. I can understand getting upset about stuff that actually happened. A lot of this thread recently is in the former category.

 

[Frenzy31]

I have to fix your post. Pietro wanted to stay and retire in Bluenote. It came down for Army didnt want to give security for Pietro and his family. Pietro take less money for security. You can think of what you value more. Business vision or family friendly and community first vision. Army draw the line this is just business. Bit crazy St Louis Blues is more business type of organization vs Vegas which as a city is place where money talks. I think that just tells a lot of Vegas as franchise and Blues.

I bet every Blues players who are spending UFA's really think of what Army did with Pietro. I quarantee it has affect on players decisions how limited leverage they have and what others teams could value them.

I view this will eventually bite back in Army's direction and Blues will lose some more key players just for this manner.

Wrong. There is no evidence of this what so ever. You can talk about security all you want, which is fine, but lets not pretend he took less money for it.

As for the rest, Schwartz, fired Pie agent so I don't buy this as biting us in the back. In fact, I would say it worked out just fine. As for other UFAs around the league, well.... we have never been a hotbed for them to begin with.

 

[mike1320]

Wrong. There is no evidence of this what so ever. You can talk about security all you want, which is fine, but lets not pretend he took less money for it.

As for the rest, Schwartz, fired Pie agent so I don't buy this as biting us in the back. In fact, I would say it worked out just fine. As for other UFAs around the league, well.... we have never been a hotbed for them to begin with.

If Army gave in to whatever demands every free agent wanted, we'd look like San Jose and people would want him fired.

 

[MissouriMook]

Wrong. There is no evidence of this what so ever. You can talk about security all you want, which is fine, but lets not pretend he took less money for it.

As for the rest, Schwartz, fired Pie agent so I don't buy this as biting us in the back. In fact, I would say it worked out just fine. As for other UFAs around the league, well.... we have never been a hotbed for them to begin with.

He actually got paid 10% more AAV than what we were reported to have offered, just for one less year which made the total value of the contract slightly less.

On the issue of the NMC, let's not forget that he moved his family 2,000 miles to a city where no one in his family had ever lived...because we wouldn't give him a full NMC to keep him from having to move his family to a city where no one in his family had ever lived.

So what did he actually not get in his contract offer here? Word is that Army offered him a full NTC, which meant that he couldn't be traded somewhere else without the player's permission. The extra protection from the NMC would have meant:

1. He couldn't be exposed to an expansion draft. He wasn't going to be exposed this summer for Seattle, and chances of another one happening in the following 7 years is remote at best.

2. He couldn't be placed on waivers. This would keep him from being buried in the minors (highly unlikely) or claimed by another team (virtually impossible under the circumstances). Regardless of how much his play might have deteriorated, this is something this franchise has never done in the cap era. In addition, no one would claim him from waivers and agree to pay his salary if the quality of his play had dropped that dramatically that we would waive him in the first place.

Put 1 and 2 together and you have a player that walked away from the only team he has known, playing in the city where his wife was born and raised, and move his family 2,000 miles away to a place neither of them has ever lived, all because he didn't get a clause in his contract that would have eliminated the chance (which I would place at well below 5%) that at some point he would be forced to move his family 2,000 miles away to a place neither of them has ever lived.

He proactively did what he said he didn't want to have to do based on his contract demands. Does that point of view really make sense to anyone? It sure doesn't make sense to me. I stand by my position that Petro's agent had the player so convinced that he had the Blues over a barrel that they ran a bluff going for a visit to Vegas and were shocked when Army called their bluff and signed someone else. I don't believe for a minute that the agent didn't expect Army to cave as soon as Petro got on that plane. I'm just so tired of the back and forth about whether this is Army's fault or Petro's fault when it seems clear to me that Petro's agent screwed him over trying to get him a contract clause that had virtually no chance of ever being relevant. The villain in this story is the agent and you'll never convince me otherwise.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

If Army gave in to whatever demands every free agent wanted, we'd look like San Jose and people would want him fired.

Remember when he gave Bergie, Ott, and a few other players what they wanted and talked about how DA was tearing the team apart?

 

[Ranksu]

Wrong. There is no evidence of this what so ever. You can talk about security all you want, which is fine, but lets not pretend he took less money for it.

As for the rest, Schwartz, fired Pie agent so I don't buy this as biting us in the back. In fact, I would say it worked out just fine. As for other UFAs around the league, well.... we have never been a hotbed for them to begin with.

8mill.$ x 8- years = 64mill.$ and 8.8mill.$ x 7-years = 61.6mill.$

 

[Ranksu]

Remember when he gave Bergie, Ott, and a few other players what they wanted and talked about how DA was tearing the team apart?

You compare Berglund to Pietrangelo.

Berglund contract was ok, Lehterä and Allen contracts were horrendous.

Now Scandella's is IMO same category. Osa move By Army. Hesitate move.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Its pretty rare that the team that "wins" the UFA sweepstakes and signs the latest top dollar free agent actually ends up being a Cup winner after. In recent history, that's not the formula. It seems more often that's the formula for overpaying and handicapping your roster. I won't be terribly upset of the Blues aren't in big on UFA Seth Jones, even though he's a great player. Overpaying for an UFA is probably the last possible way you want to acquire a good player. Armstrong has acquired a lot of good players, and he's managed it with a pretty consistent cap conscious philosophy. Rather than spending excess cap dollars, he's spent assets in trades or acquired players in the draft.

As for Pietro, he absolutely took less money to go to Vegas. He's never going to recoup that 8th year of salary at the end of the 7 year contract. Total contract value is what counts here, not the AAV. The difference would have been if he'd been bought out in St Louis before the end of the contract. He's insulated from that now for 7 years. I'm not really convinced its going to work out better financially than it would have in St Louis, but I suppose he has the certainty he sought.

 

[mike1320]

He actually got paid 10% more AAV than what we were reported to have offered, just for one less year which made the total value of the contract slightly less.

On the issue of the NMC, let's not forget that he moved his family 2,000 miles to a city where no one in his family had ever lived...because we wouldn't give him a full NMC to keep him from having to move his family to a city where no one in his family had ever lived.

So what did he actually not get in his contract offer here? Word is that Army offered him a full NTC, which meant that he couldn't be traded somewhere else without the player's permission. The extra protection from the NMC would have meant:

1. He couldn't be exposed to an expansion draft. He wasn't going to be exposed this summer for Seattle, and chances of another one happening in the following 7 years is remote at best.

2. He couldn't be placed on waivers. This would keep him from being buried in the minors (highly unlikely) or claimed by another team (virtually impossible under the circumstances). Regardless of how much his play might have deteriorated, this is something this franchise has never done in the cap era. In addition, no one would claim him from waivers and agree to pay his salary if the quality of his play had dropped that dramatically that we would waive him in the first place.

Put 1 and 2 together and you have a player that walked away from the only team he has known, playing in the city where his wife was born and raised, and move his family 2,000 miles away to a place neither of them has ever lived, all because he didn't get a clause in his contract that would have eliminated the chance (which I would place at well below 5%) that at some point he would be forced to move his family 2,000 miles away to a place neither of them has ever lived.

He proactively did what he said he didn't want to have to do based on his contract demands. Does that point of view really make sense to anyone? It sure doesn't make sense to me. I stand by my position that Petro's agent had the player so convinced that he had the Blues over a barrel that they ran a bluff going for a visit to Vegas and were shocked when Army called their bluff and signed someone else. I don't believe for a minute that the agent didn't expect Army to cave as soon as Petro got on that plane. I'm just so tired of the back and forth about whether this is Army's fault or Petro's fault when it seems clear to me that Petro's agent screwed him over trying to get him a contract clause that had virtually no chance of ever being relevant. The villain in this story is the agent and you'll never convince me otherwise.

I know we'll never see completely behind the curtain on this deal, but this does make a ton of sense.

 

[joe galiba]

So is this where we are at as a franchise? Are we going to walk away from top UFA's like Pietrangelo and Jones, and settle for the next best thing like Krug and Faulk? (Not that there's anything wrong with them!) Sorry, but I am somewhat dissatisfied with that. And now we might not be able to afford Parayko. Wonderful. I am not attacking you Brockon, you are one of the posters I respect most on this board. I am just not happy with the direction this franchise is taking. I am guessing this post will bother some members. Whatever. Flame away.

we went that route in the 90's and early 2000's when we had a whole lot of very top end talent
we were good but we never won, the bottom half of our roster was largely crap and depth was exposed in the playoffs
spreading the money out over very good players seems to work for us, especially given that we are not a Toronto, Chicago, Detroit etc.. that can afford to eat bad salaries and blow it up and be terrible if it doesn't work out
and we do spend to the cap, we just do it differently

not that I am against shinny toys, though

 

[ezcreepin]

Its pretty rare that the team that "wins" the UFA sweepstakes and signs the latest top dollar free agent actually ends up being a Cup winner after. In recent history, that's not the formula. It seems more often that's the formula for overpaying and handicapping your roster. I won't be terribly upset of the Blues aren't in big on UFA Seth Jones, even though he's a great player. Overpaying for an UFA is probably the last possible way you want to acquire a good player. Armstrong has acquired a lot of good players, and he's managed it with a pretty consistent cap conscious philosophy. Rather than spending excess cap dollars, he's spent assets in trades or acquired players in the draft.

As for Pietro, he absolutely took less money to go to Vegas. He's never going to recoup that 8th year of salary at the end of the 7 year contract. Total contract value is what counts here, not the AAV. The difference would have been if he'd been bought out in St Louis before the end of the contract. He's insulated from that now for 7 years. I'm not really convinced its going to work out better financially than it would have in St Louis, but I suppose he has the certainty he sought.

Don't know how the money ends up being earned, but Nevada doesn't have taxed income. He could very well end up with more money on a 1 less year deal in Nevada vs an extra year in St Louis. I have done zero looking into this though so it's really conjecture

 

[BlueKnight]

So is this where we are at as a franchise? Are we going to walk away from top UFA's like Pietrangelo and Jones, and settle for the next best thing like Krug and Faulk? (Not that there's anything wrong with them!) Sorry, but I am somewhat dissatisfied with that. And now we might not be able to afford Parayko. Wonderful. I am not attacking you Brockon, you are one of the posters I respect most on this board. I am just not happy with the direction this franchise is taking. I am guessing this post will bother some members. Whatever. Flame away.

I can't like this post enough Simon. This post doesn't bother me I fully agree with you, I just haven't liked the direction that the Blues have been taking lately, Well ever since winning the cup. I'm angry, Walking away from the first Blues player to lift the stanley cup and now hearing rumors that the Blues might not sign Colt and now Binny.

I have to fix your post. Pietro wanted to stay and retire in Bluenote. It came down for Army didnt want to give security for Pietro and his family. Pietro take less money for security. You can think of what you value more. Business vision or family friendly and community first vision. Army draw the line this is just business. Bit crazy St Louis Blues is more business type of organization vs Vegas which as a city is place where money talks. I think that just tells a lot of Vegas as franchise and Blues.

I bet every Blues players who are spending UFA's really think of what Army did with Pietro. I quarantee it has affect on players decisions how limited leverage they have and what others teams could value them.

I view this will eventually bite back in Army's direction and Blues will lose some more key players just for this manner.

Petro did want to say and he even said so not that long ago to the Vegas media. I've watched a few Vegas games and Petro doesn't look happy.

Just like I said before don't expect the Armstrong to sign any top flight free agents, If he can't even sign one of his own top players.

I agree this will come back and bite Army hard.

 

[CaliforniaBlues310]

Just like I said before don't expect the Armstrong to sign any top flight free agents, If he can't even sign one of his own top players.

I agree this will come back and bite Army hard.

I mean it’s not like he didn’t sign the second best forward AND defenseman on the market this year or anything...

 

[MissouriMook]

...

Petro did want to say and he even said so not that long ago to the Vegas media. I've watched a few Vegas games and Petro doesn't look happy.

...

Then maybe he should have signed the deal Army put in front of him instead of going along with his agent in a game of chicken, huh?

 

[ezcreepin]

I can't like this post enough Simon. This post doesn't bother me I fully agree with you, I just haven't liked the direction that the Blues have been taking lately, Well ever since winning the cup. I'm angry, Walking away from the first Blues player to lift the stanley cup and now hearing rumors that the Blues might not sign Colt and now Binny.



Petro did want to say and he even said so not that long ago to the Vegas media. I've watched a few Vegas games and Petro doesn't look happy.

Just like I said before don't expect the Armstrong to sign any top flight free agents, If he can't even sign one of his own top players.

I agree this will come back and bite Army hard.

If we're going to be charitable, the Blues won with a group of 2nd tier players besides Tarasenko and Petro. Despite how good guys like Schenn, Schwartz, Perron, ROR, Parayko, Bouw, Gunnar, Bort, Bozak, Maroon, et. al, they are not what you call superstars. I might let you convince me that ROR is, but he isn't a prototypical superstar either. His offensive production, although still really good, takes a backseat to his defense. It's the type of tradeoff you have to take with guys like him, and I'm perfectly fine with that.

The reality is that the Blues got LUCKY Binnington played like prime Patrick Roy and they got lucky Parayko and Bouw looked like a Lidstrom-Niedermayer pairing. Let's not forget that the team was awful before Berube came in. I think the most important part in the Blues winning was rebuilding a culture and creating team comradery. After Berube came in, they started playing for each other and it showed. I dont buy into needing to sign superstar free agents or even having to retain guys that won you the cup. If you believe it will handcuff your team in the future, then you have to figure out a way to handle that, whether internally or making a trade. I was disappointed we didn't sign Backes, but I understood the move, much like I will probably understand not signing Petro. I'm not saying that I'm content right now with having Krug over Petro, but it seemed like an insurance move at the time that payed off. I highly doubt Petro went to Vegas because Krug was signed, and I'm quite confident Army would've made the cap work for us if we had both defenseman signed.

In saying this though, I am NOT ok with signing both Faulk and Krug to 7 year deals. They're good but not 7 years good

 

[Ranksu]

Then maybe he should have signed the deal Army put in front of him instead of going along with his agent in a game of chicken, huh?

Why Army didnt valued franchise face, captain who bring the Cup for St Louis first time, why Army didnt valued the profit what Blues would get in future to Blues, St Louis as a city and community.

Keep him home, retire as Bluenote?

Why Army let everything that and current Cup window get closed just for reason Army couldn't keep Pietros balls anymore in his hands?

That's f***ing stupid thing what GM could do.

You dont grow in your trees Pietro type of players.

In best scenario after this team is again bottom of division and years drafting high we could potentially pick top RHD.

Even then, we dont know how he develope,is he injury free, what about rest of team? Are they good enough to compete?

I'm just gonna say, Damn Boy. This could have been this franchise turning point to downhill after one Cup run and next 50-years of misery ahead of us.

And yes I'm going to say

 

[MissouriMook]

Why Army didnt valued franchise face, captain who bring the Cup for St Louis first time, why Army didnt valued the profit what Blues would get in future to Blues, St Louis as a city and community.

Keep him home, retire as Bluenote?

Why Army let everything that and current Cup window get closed just for reason Army couldn't keep Pietros balls anymore in his hands?

That's f***ing stupid thing what GM could do.

You dont grow in your trees Pietro type of players.

In best scenario after this team is again bottom of division and years drafting high we could potentially pick top RHD.

Even then, we dont know how he develope,is he injury free, what about rest of team? Are they good enough to compete?

I'm just gonna say, Damn Boy. This could have been this franchise turning point to downhill after one Cup run and next 50-years of misery ahead of us.

And yes I'm going to say

 

[simon IC]

He actually got paid 10% more AAV than what we were reported to have offered, just for one less year which made the total value of the contract slightly less.

On the issue of the NMC, let's not forget that he moved his family 2,000 miles to a city where no one in his family had ever lived...because we wouldn't give him a full NMC to keep him from having to move his family to a city where no one in his family had ever lived.

So what did he actually not get in his contract offer here? Word is that Army offered him a full NTC, which meant that he couldn't be traded somewhere else without the player's permission. The extra protection from the NMC would have meant:

1. He couldn't be exposed to an expansion draft. He wasn't going to be exposed this summer for Seattle, and chances of another one happening in the following 7 years is remote at best.

2. He couldn't be placed on waivers. This would keep him from being buried in the minors (highly unlikely) or claimed by another team (virtually impossible under the circumstances). Regardless of how much his play might have deteriorated, this is something this franchise has never done in the cap era. In addition, no one would claim him from waivers and agree to pay his salary if the quality of his play had dropped that dramatically that we would waive him in the first place.

Put 1 and 2 together and you have a player that walked away from the only team he has known, playing in the city where his wife was born and raised, and move his family 2,000 miles away to a place neither of them has ever lived, all because he didn't get a clause in his contract that would have eliminated the chance (which I would place at well below 5%) that at some point he would be forced to move his family 2,000 miles away to a place neither of them has ever lived.

He proactively did what he said he didn't want to have to do based on his contract demands. Does that point of view really make sense to anyone? It sure doesn't make sense to me. I stand by my position that Petro's agent had the player so convinced that he had the Blues over a barrel that they ran a bluff going for a visit to Vegas and were shocked when Army called their bluff and signed someone else. I don't believe for a minute that the agent didn't expect Army to cave as soon as Petro got on that plane. I'm just so tired of the back and forth about whether this is Army's fault or Petro's fault when it seems clear to me that Petro's agent screwed him over trying to get him a contract clause that had virtually no chance of ever being relevant. The villain in this story is the agent and you'll never convince me otherwise.

Probably the best post I have read about this tired subject. Well done.

 

[Xerloris]

I have to fix your post. Pietro wanted to stay and retire in Bluenote. It came down for Army didnt want to give security for Pietro and his family. Pietro take less money for security. You can think of what you value more. Business vision or family friendly and community first vision. Army draw the line this is just business. Bit crazy St Louis Blues is more business type of organization vs Vegas which as a city is place where money talks. I think that just tells a lot of Vegas as franchise and Blues.

I bet every Blues players who are spending UFA's really think of what Army did with Pietro. I quarantee it has affect on players decisions how limited leverage they have and what others teams could value them.

I view this will eventually bite back in Army's direction and Blues will lose some more key players just for this manner.

Pietrangelo chose not to sign here. Pietrangelo did not want to retire a Blue. Pietrangelo chose of his own free will to leave. It's time to move on.

I can't like this post enough Simon. This post doesn't bother me I fully agree with you, I just haven't liked the direction that the Blues have been taking lately, Well ever since winning the cup. I'm angry, Walking away from the first Blues player to lift the stanley cup and now hearing rumors that the Blues might not sign Colt and now Binny.



Petro did want to say and he even said so not that long ago to the Vegas media. I've watched a few Vegas games and Petro doesn't look happy.

Just like I said before don't expect the Armstrong to sign any top flight free agents, If he can't even sign one of his own top players.

I agree this will come back and bite Army hard.

Pietrangelo chose not to sign here. Pietrangelo did not want to retire a Blue. Pietrangelo chose of his own free will to leave. It's time to move on.

I mean it’s not like he didn’t sign the second best forward AND defenseman on the market this year or anything...

Looking at Buffalo I'm pretty sure he signed the best forward.