Barzal vs Marner

[Slapshot Sultan]

Marner, no question

 

[Nizdizzle]

This entire thread is based on leaf fans wanting justification in saying Marner is in a different tier than Barzal. Which objectively he is not. All the rest of the posters want is an acknowledgement they are close. However we're not going to get it. We should all bow down to the leafs. A team that hasn't won a playoff series in 16 years with players that haven't delivered when it matters most. Simply wanting proof they can elevate come playoff time is blasphemous. We should just give them the cup now it's 22 games into the season.

Bert and whining about Leafs fans, name a more iconic duo.

 

[Pyrophorus]

All people care about is past years on this site. It's a joke.

100% the truth.

 

[FourRings]

Barzal is not comparable to Marner

Marner will be the best winger in the world moving forward

Barzal is a non top 10 C.

Barzal is borderline top 10, I'd say.

As for Marner being the best winger in the world, I think that Pastrnak, Kucherov and Rantanen would be in the conversation with him for a lot of his career. Marner is with that group though.

 

[Foppberg]

Barzal. He's basically the center, defensively sound version of Marner.

 

[leafsfan5]

Marner has put up 21 point in 25 playoff games...

Ignored in all of this?

All 4 series have been against elite defensive teams (Caps, Bruins x2, Jackets) with high end goal-tending(Caps/Bruins), even Korpisalo put up a 0.941 in last years playoffs lol.

People don't care about quality of competition until we talk about the north division

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Barzal. He's basically the center, defensively sound version of Marner.

You feel the guy who is going to be getting Selke votes the next several years isn't defensively sound?

 

[Pyrophorus]

Barzal. He's basically the center, defensively sound version of Marner.

Show your work.

 

[hamzarocks]

Barzal is borderline top 10, I'd say.

As for Marner being the best winger in the world, I think that Pastrnak, Kucherov and Rantanen would be in the conversation with him for a lot of his career. Marner is with that group though.

Rantanen is not in that tier. His production post signing has gone down and he is not with those three player.

Pasta and Kucherov are right with Marner (Kuch is better right now hes the 2nd best player in the world, while Pasta and Marner are about equal)

I disagree that Barzal is a top 10C rn or moving into the future. His production lags behind to many players right now. He does have the talent to be at that level but he needs more consistency to seperate himself from Aho/Point and move to the Matthews/Eichel tier

 

[hamzarocks]

Barzal. He's basically the center, defensively sound version of Marner.

Marner is a great defensive player. He out produces Barzal even more than he out produces Rantanen.

Marner is utilized on the PK, goes head to head vs other teams best players and comes out ahead most of the time.

Marner has been to good for Barzal to be a comparable player so far. Barzal needs to increase his production and become a better two way player to try and close off the gap

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

This entire thread is based on leaf fans wanting justification in saying Marner is in a different tier than Barzal. Which objectively he is not. All the rest of the posters want is an acknowledgement they are close. However we're not going to get it. We should all bow down to the leafs. A team that hasn't won a playoff series in 16 years with players that haven't delivered when it matters most. Simply wanting proof they can elevate come playoff time is blasphemous. We should just give them the cup now it's 22 games into the season.

Given the timing of it, my bet is it came from the "Barzal top 3" thread on the main page.

That said, feel free to bow down and yes, we'll take the Cup if you want to give it to us.

Fun fact, Leafs core was just starting elementary school in your time reference. Probably has a lot to do with today.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Remember when the Caps played 'The wrong way' had had spectacular exit after exit? Keep pumping those points tho, points make a player great. Marner gonna crush it in the playoffs again...

I don’t think this makes the point you think it does, it makes Barzal’s lack of offensive production look worse. Ovi, Backstrom, and Kuznetsov were still able to put up points while playing in Trotz’s system.

 

[Foppberg]

I don’t think this makes the point you think it does, it makes Barzal’s lack of offensive production look worse. Ovi, Backstrom, and Kuznetsov were still able to put up points while playing in Trotz’s system.

Fair point. But Washington also has way more fire power. Barzal is honestly the only elite offensive piece the Islanders have.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Rantanen is not in that tier. His production post signing has gone down and he is not with those three player.

Pasta and Kucherov are right with Marner (Kuch is better right now hes the 2nd best player in the world, while Pasta and Marner are about equal)

I disagree that Barzal is a top 10C rn or moving into the future. His production lags behind to many players right now. He does have the talent to be at that level but he needs more consistency to seperate himself from Aho/Point and move to the Matthews/Eichel tier

It's almost like Rantanen got hurt last year, missing 28 of the 70 games his team played, and is playing in the best defensive division in the league this year. No, that can't possibly be the reason, it must be that his 1.18 PPG season and his 1.18 PPG career playoff scoring rates must be a fluke.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Yes I imagine Marner would be having more trouble racking up points against the Sabres, Rangers and Devils.

If you are more knowledgedable about statistics, why don't you go ahead and show your work on why Barzal is better?

Blackwood, Ullmark and Shesterkin are 8, 9, 10 in SV% this year among goalies with 10+ games played.

Hogburg is 38th (dead last), Murray is 35th, Price is 34th, Holtby is 32nd.

I'd imagine that racking up points against Ottawa, Montreal and Vancouver is about as easy as it gets this season.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Barzal. He's basically the center, defensively sound version of Marner.

Aho also does everything Marner does but is a center and without the luxury of Matthews on their lines.

 

[NK94]

Aho also does everything Marner does but is a center and without the luxury of Matthews on their lines.

That's great and all if you don't factor in that Matthews has played with Hyman and Nylander the most at 5v5 since 2016-17 and Babcock never put Marner and Matthews together for any significant period of time.

 

[hamzarocks]

It's almost like Rantanen got hurt last year, missing 28 of the 70 games his team played, and is playing in the best defensive division in the league this year. No, that can't possibly be the reason, it must be that his 1.18 PPG season and his 1.18 PPG career playoff scoring rates must be a fluke.

Marner was also injured last year yet he produced. The division is only strong defensively due to underperforming star players.

The Avs as a whole have not delivered offensively as expected. MacKinnon has 21 in 18 which is low for the type of player he is.

The kings/sharks/yotes/wild are not elite defensive teams. Rantanen has struggled to produce and his production is more reliant on PP which hasnt been hot this year for the Avs.

He doesnt get any sort of pass when Marner was putting a 94 point pace making 10.9 last year and getting picked apart last year. Rantanen has been a 80 point guy while making 9.2 since signing his deal these past two years. The excuses wont cut it

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Barzal. He's basically the center, defensively sound version of Marner.

a center version of Marner who is also better defensively doesn't really sound like it describes a Barzal level player

 

[Critical13]

Blackwood, Ullmark and Shesterkin are 8, 9, 10 in SV% this year among goalies with 10+ games played.

Hogburg is 38th (dead last), Murray is 35th, Price is 34th, Holtby is 32nd.

I'd imagine that racking up points against Ottawa, Montreal and Vancouver is about as easy as it gets this season.

Ottawa and Montreal are both decent 5v5 teams (Montreal one of the best in the league) and Vancouver was a very good team last year.

The East duds are just as dudly as the North's, but at least the North's have had recent success.

a center version of Marner who is also better defensively doesn't really sound like it describes a Barzal level player

Apparently Barzal is now prime Steve Yzerman? Seems like an unfair standard to hold the kid to.

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

a center version of Marner who is also better defensively doesn't really sound like it describes a Barzal level player

It doesn't. It sounds like one of the best players in the world. Which Barzal isn't at this point.

 

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Why Mitch Marner's defensive play for the Maple Leafs should put him in the Selke Trophy race

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Marner was also injured last year yet he produced. The division is only strong defensively due to underperforming star players.

The Avs as a whole have not delivered offensively as expected. MacKinnon has 21 in 18 which is low for the type of player he is.

The kings/sharks/yotes/wild are not elite defensive teams. Rantanen has struggled to produce and his production is more reliant on PP which hasnt been hot this year for the Avs.

He doesnt get any sort of pass when Marner was putting a 94 point pace making 10.9 last year and getting picked apart last year. Rantanen has been a 80 point guy while making 9.2 since signing his deal these past two years. The excuses wont cut it

Marner also being injured doesn't mean their regular season play was impacted exactly the same. Mikko also followed up the season with 21 points in 15 playoff games.

And, why do you think the stars in the West are underperforming? Do you think that maybe it's because the teams they are facing are playing really well defensively? Or because they have to face guys like MAF, Gibson, Quick/Campbell, Keumper/Raanta, Binnington, Kahkonen and Grubauer in net? The only guy in the West who hasn't put up a good SV% is Jones, but then you have Couture, Burns, Karlsson, Vlasic, etc. to deal with.

If Rantanen doesn't get a pass for struggling through an injury plagued season, why does Marner get a pass for struggling in the playoffs?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

a center version of Marner who is also better defensively doesn't really sound like it describes a Barzal level player

I don't think the "better defensively" thing is accurate, but in terms of the style of player they are, I think describing Barzal as a center version of Marner is pretty bang on.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't think the "better defensively" thing is accurate, but in terms of the style of player they are, I think describing Barzal as a center version of Marner is pretty bang on.

I think Barzal and Marner are both playmaking players first, but this is where the similarities end. Barzal plays the more important position. The myth and I am not saying it is coming from you Sidney, of him not playing defensively is a complete lark. To play for Trotz, you have to play D. He has made tremendous strides in that area of the game. He was never bad in that area, he was the Isles best ES player his rookie year at +1 while Tavares leaked at ES at -12.

This year he has taken another step fwd, this is the most complete I have ever seen him and he plays in a much tougher division than Marner does. Also Marner cannot possess the puck like Barzal can, he simply is not the skater Barzal is. Barzal's has the puck so much, as Scotty Bowman used to say the best defence is when your team has the puck.

Barzal is far more important to the Isles than Marner ever would be. Marner is a winger, which is not what the Isles need. One can imagine how many points Barzal would put up if he was on a run and gun team and division. But he and the Isles are thriving symbolically. He's just one of the most elite players in the league possessing the puck.