Barzal vs Marner

[IPS]

I don't think the "better defensively" thing is accurate, but in terms of the style of player they are, I think describing Barzal as a center version of Marner is pretty bang on.

He's a center version of Marner with about half the offensive talent.

 

[IPS]

Kuznetsov had his best offensive season under Barry Trotz. These excuses just keep getting more pathetic.

 

[Dust]

He's a center version of Marner with about half the offensive talent.

Does anyone actually believe that he has half the offensive talent of Marner? He plays in a different system than Marner, I think both guys are amazing offensive threats.

 

[IPS]

Does anyone actually believe that he has half the offensive talent of Marner? He plays in a different system than Marner, I think both guys are amazing offensive threats.

I know, the Barry Trotz system is apparently so stifling for centerman that Kuznetsov had his best offensive year playing in it.

If Barzal was on Marner's level offenively - he'd show it. But he's not, so he can't.

 

[Dust]

I know, the Barry Trotz system is apparently so stifling for centerman that Kuznetsov had his best offensive year playing in it.

If Barzal was on Marner's level offenively - he'd show it. But he's not, so he can't.

I think you could certainly make a case that he's better. To state he's half the player offensively is just disingenuous hyperbole.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I know, the Barry Trotz system is apparently so stifling for centerman that Kuznetsov had his best offensive year playing in it.

If Barzal was on Marner's level offenively - he'd show it. But he's not, so he can't.

I'm pretty sure being able to pass to a guy like Ovechkin rather than to Eberle or Lee would impact a playmaker's point production, no?

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

It's almost like Rantanen got hurt last year, missing 28 of the 70 games his team played, and is playing in the best defensive division in the league this year. No, that can't possibly be the reason, it must be that his 1.18 PPG season and his 1.18 PPG career playoff scoring rates must be a fluke.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

So you've given up and hilariously blamed the results on homerisms. The irony.

Leafs Fans + In your Head = Rent Free

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

This is the first time I have ever seen a leaf player win a poll. If this poll was last year Marner the percentages would be flipped.

 

[IPS]

I'm pretty sure being able to pass to a guy like Ovechkin rather than to Eberle or Lee would impact a playmaker's point production, no?

Did Ovechkin just vanish into thin air when Trotz left Washington? Kuzy followed his 83 point seasons with 72 and 52 point seasons respectively... seems like Trotz helped his offensive production if anything.

If we're having an honest discussion, then we need to admit Trotz does not stifle centerman's production like a few on here are desperately trying to claim. He's nowhere near Marner offensively, it's just the cold hard facts, these excuses are getting tiresome.

 

[TGWL]

This is a joke right?

I'll take Barzal due to position and his ability to elevate in the playoffs. They are very close though.

Looks like most voters only look at the stats and don't watch the games.

How has Barzal elevated his playoffs, or performed better than Marner? Are we looking at team exits/wins, points, or just randomly pulling crap out and hoping it sticks?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Did Ovechkin just vanish into thin air when Trotz left Washington? Kuzy followed his 83 point seasons with 72 and 52 point seasons respectively... seems like Trotz helped his offensive production if anything.

Or Kuznetsov had a career year that one year, largely due to his PP assists? His production drop was largely due to getting less points on the PP -- which has zero to do with Trotz's 5on5 system.

The year prior to his career year, he also put up 59 points under Trotz. If Trotz is so great for a centerman's offense, what's with that 59 point season?

If we're having an honest discussion, then we need to admit Trotz does not stifle centerman's production like a few on here are desperately trying to claim. He's nowhere near Marner offensively, it's just the cold hard facts, these excuses are getting tiresome.

Who said he's on par with Marner offensively? I didn't. I'm just calling BS on you thinking that he's "half as good offensively" and your notion that playing in a defensive system won't impact offensive totals at all.

The fact Barzal dropped from 85 points down to 62 going from Doug "what is defense" Weight to Trotz is proof enough of that. Or is your conclusion Barzal simply forgot how to play hockey over the summer?

 

[Atomos2]

If you want to base this all on a 20 game sample size sure. The argument I am making is they are in the same tier. If all the leaf players were as good as you all say they are then they should simply March to the scf without losing a game. Yet somehow that hasn't been the case. Weird.

I think what you were trying to say is, if all the Leaf players were as good as he says they are, they would be in first place right now...oh wait. Weird.

 

[Lights911]

I’ll take Barzal.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I know, the Barry Trotz system is apparently so stifling for centerman that Kuznetsov had his best offensive year playing in it.

If Barzal was on Marner's level offenively - he'd show it. But he's not, so he can't.

Barzal had 85 points as a rookie, Marner 69 points as a rookie. He's already shown it, and with lesser linemates also than Marner played with. Hockey is a team sport, Barzal plays in a more defensive system that has proven to be more successful. He has experienced 4 post season playoff series wins as one of team's leading scorers that Marner has never experienced. He has sacrificed some offence that are more condusive to winning HF boards polls than for NHL team success. Maybe Marner will finally experience a playoff series win this year playing in the weak north this year. I expect as much. But the real playoffs will start when he faces real competition such as teams from the Central or East Division. History has shown, this is where he and his team have stumbled. Here is a reminder what Leafs fans wrote just last year after losing to the Blue Jackets in a playoff qualifier.

Marner's Playoffs Struggles

 

[34]

Barzal had 85 points as a rookie, Marner 69 points as a rookie. He's already shown it, and with lesser linemates also than Marner played with. Hockey is a team sport, Barzal plays in a more defensive system that has proven to be more successful. He has experienced 4 post season playoff series wins as one of team's leading scores that Marner has never experienced. He has sacrificed some offence that are more condusive to winning HF boards polls than for NHL team success. Maybe Marner will finally experience a playoff series win this year playing in the weak north this year. I expect as much. But the real playoffs will start when he faces real competition such as teams from the Central or East Division. History has shown, this is where he and his team have stumbled. Here is a reminder what Leafs fans wrote just last year after losing to the Blue Jackets in a playoff qualifier.

Marner's Playoffs Struggles

You hate the Leafs and always vote against them.

Marner is so freaking good, but you try to make him out to be a 3rd line scrub. No one buys that narrative.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Marner is so freaking good, but you try to make him out to be a 3rd line scrub. No one buys that narrative.

Is that what you got out of his post?

Kind of ironic given the fact your fellow Leaf fan essentially tried to make Barzal out to be a 3rd line scrub (half as good as Marner would be a 40 to 45-ish point player). Why didn't you call our that post if you hate hyperbole so much?

 

[Joe n]

And some voters only look at jerseys and don't look at games or stats.

His argument literally applies to him

 

[34]

Is that what you got out of his post?

Kind of ironic given the fact your fellow Leaf fan essentially tried to make Barzal out to be a 3rd line scrub (half as good as Marner would be a 40 to 45-ish point player). Why didn't you call our that post if you hate hyperbole so much?

Barzal is not a 3rd liner. He is an elite player in the NHL. No question about that.

Marner is the better player here though. He challenging for the best RW in the game.

 

[Joe n]

Blackwood, Ullmark and Shesterkin are 8, 9, 10 in SV% this year among goalies with 10+ games played.

Hogburg is 38th (dead last), Murray is 35th, Price is 34th, Holtby is 32nd.

I'd imagine that racking up points against Ottawa, Montreal and Vancouver is about as easy as it gets this season.

coming to derail another thread

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

coming to derail another thread

If pointing out the truth derails a thread, it deserves to be derailed.

 

[ChiefWiggum]

This is a lot closer than the poll reads. I was honestly leaning Barzal before I looked at the poll results.

 

[hamzarocks]

Marner also being injured doesn't mean their regular season play was impacted exactly the same. Mikko also followed up the season with 21 points in 15 playoff games.

And, why do you think the stars in the West are underperforming? Do you think that maybe it's because the teams they are facing are playing really well defensively? Or because they have to face guys like MAF, Gibson, Quick/Campbell, Keumper/Raanta, Binnington, Kahkonen and Grubauer in net? The only guy in the West who hasn't put up a good SV% is Jones, but then you have Couture, Burns, Karlsson, Vlasic, etc. to deal with.

If Rantanen doesn't get a pass for struggling through an injury plagued season, why does Marner get a pass for struggling in the playoffs?

Your overating the goaltending in the West

Gibson has a .905
Quick has .903 though Peterson in the other half starts has a .928 so average about .916
Kuemper has a .913 while raanta gas a .895
Binnington has a .909
Talbot/Kahkonen combine have ~ .916 together
Gruabauer has a .915
Jones/Dubnyk are horrible with a combined sv% less than. .890

Fleury has been elite I'll give you him at .935

Playing against EK, Burns , Vlasic should increase offense. They are some of the worse defensive players in the game. The Avs and knights should be feasting playing against the horrible defense of the Sharks/Yotes/Kings

Rantanen had a great playoff but he has had two back to back poor regular seasosn. Marner had a bad playoffs but has had two better regular seasons and this year he has been a top 5 player this season.

Marner has been better over a longer size these past two years and rantanen hasnt build on a strong playoffs. His production in the playoffs wasnt realistic moving forward and he is showing he is a 80 point player rather than 110 point player. His play is trending downwards vs marner who is becoming one of the best 1st line players going head to head versus Mcdavid/Pettersson/Schiefele and coming out ahead more often than not

 

[TOGuy14]

Marner pretty easily here

 

[Foppberg]

a center version of Marner who is also better defensively doesn't really sound like it describes a Barzal level player

Doesn't sound like you watch the Islanders too often. I love Marner, but they're both very similar. Nothing wrong with that.