Barzal vs Marner

[bert]

Bless your heart Bert, of course you will take Barzal. I guess the 40 point gap doesn't bother you.

Also, being a C vs a W is only relevant if you bring exceptional defence. Marner PKs and is a good 5v5 defender, so the position part is kind of irrelevant.

Bert would probably take Stamkos over Matthews and Edmundson over Brodie if it meant he could have a chance to vote for a non-Leaf.

Nope I wouldn't those aren't the same. If you think they are then that shows your ability to evaluate. The only season Barzal plays in an offensive system he outproduces marner. If you can't tell the difference in playing for Barry Trotz then in the leafs system you probably should get a new hobby.

The position part is only relevant for you depending on which side the leaf player is on.

 

[Critical13]

Nope I wouldn't those aren't the same. If you think they are then that shows your ability to evaluate. The only season Barzal plays in an offensive system he outproduces marner. If you can't tell the difference in playing for Barry Trotz then in the leafs system you probably should get a new hobby.

The position part is only relevant for you depending on which side the leaf player is on.

So you think the Barry Trotz system is the reason Barzal is on pace for 70points while Marner is on pace for 118pts?

Just a systems thing?



I could buy that Barzal is probably closer to an 82-90pt player in a better system, but that's being optimistic and is still 28pts below Marner's current pace.

 

[Riseonfire]

So you think the Barry Trotz system is the reason Barzal is on pace for 70points while Marner is on pace for 118pts?

Just a systems thing?

You think systems don't matter?

Son.

 

[Critical13]

You think systems don't matter?

Son.

Oh systems matter. They don't 47pts matter.

Not to mention that the argument should look both ways - Marner is a very good defensive winger in Keefe's system. Would he be a Selke candidate in NYI?

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The better player, Marner in this case, is better for any team. You can't say a team would be better off with a lesser player.

Barzal's team has had more success than Marner's team.

 

[bert]

So you think the Barry Trotz system is the reason Barzal is on pace for 70points while Marner is on pace for 118pts?

Just a systems thing?



I could buy that Barzal is probably closer to an 82-90pt player in a better system, but that's being optimistic and is still 28pts below Marner's current pace.

Who do you think the better hockey player is Auston Matthews or Jordan Eberle? What's the average GPG compared to the North or the Atlantic. It's just not as simple as you try to make it sound.

 

[Buzzman17]

Bless your heart Bert, of course you will take Barzal. I guess the 40 point gap doesn't bother you.

Also, being a C vs a W is only relevant if you bring exceptional defence. Marner PKs and is a good 5v5 defender, so the position part is kind of irrelevant.

Bert would probably take Stamkos over Matthews and Edmundson over Brodie if it meant he could have a chance to vote for a non-Leaf.

edit: sorry, I said 30 points gap. It's actually on pace to be a 47 pt gap in an 82 game season...

Poor but-hurt bert

 

[Riseonfire]

Oh systems matter. They don't 47pts matter.

Not to mention that the argument should look both ways - Marner is a very good defensive winger in Keefe's system. Would he be a Selke candidate in NYI?

33-19 is not 47 though. I think NYI wouldn't trade for Marner straight up, and I don't think Toronto would either so that puts it pretty close to 50/50 with the edge to our personal bias.

 

[Critical13]

Who do you think the better hockey player is Auston Matthews or Jordan Eberle? What's the average GPG compared to the North or the Atlantic. It's just not as simple as you try to make it sound.

You are right bert, it must be me and the other 90% of voters who are wrong. Definitely couldn't be you, TWS and a handful of Islander faithful who are bias in this situation.

 

[LeafGrief]

Who do you think the better hockey player is Auston Matthews or Jordan Eberle? What's the average GPG compared to the North or the Atlantic. It's just not as simple as you try to make it sound.

Matt Barzal has 19 points in 22 games.
Mitch Marner has 33 points in 23 games.

Systems, opponents, teammates, powerplay minutes, and divisions can indeed effect player scoring. They do not effect player scoring by 75% and there is no amount of twisting in the wind that will make that math line up.

 

[bert]

You are right bert, it must be me and the other 90% of voters who are wrong. Definitely couldn't be you, TWS and a handful of Islander faithful who are bias in this situation.

So you've given up and hilariously blamed the results on homerisms. The irony.

 

[Buzzman17]

Matt Barzal has 19 points in 22 games.
Mitch Marner has 33 points in 23 games.

Systems, opponents, teammates, powerplay minutes, and divisions can indeed effect player scoring. They do not effect player scoring by 75% and there is no amount of twisting in the wind that will make that math line up.

But but but team success...and and Barsal has players draped over him whenever he plays and and ....

 

[Critical13]

33-19 is not 47 though. I think NYI wouldn't trade for Marner straight up, and I don't think Toronto would either so that puts it pretty close to 50/50 with the edge to our personal bias.

I used their 82gp for obvious reasons.

Defensively, Marner has actually been better despite being in a looser system:

The only thing Barzal really has over Marner offensively is secondary assists...

 

[bert]

Matt Barzal has 19 points in 22 games.
Mitch Marner has 33 points in 23 games.

Systems, opponents, teammates, powerplay minutes, and divisions can indeed effect player scoring. They do not effect player scoring by 75% and there is no amount of twisting in the wind that will make that math line up.

If you want to base this all on a 20 game sample size sure. The argument I am making is they are in the same tier. If all the leaf players were as good as you all say they are then they should simply March to the scf without losing a game. Yet somehow that hasn't been the case. Weird.

 

[Critical13]

So you've given up and hilariously blamed the results on homerisms. The irony.

Yes bert, I've given up by taking the time to post a statistical argument. Such a low effort take when I compare it to your "one is a C, that's better" or "Trotz = less points" take.

 

[bert]

Yes bert, I've given up by taking the time to post a statistical argument. Such a low effort take when I compare it to your "one is a C, that's better" or "Trotz = less points" take.

I am just using the arguments leaf fans have been pushing for years. Which way do you want it? Do results matter or only points. I can't figure out which matters most, just depends on the way the wind blows I guess.

 

[The Assclown]

Barzal's team has had more success than Marner's team.

Not really, no. And we're not judging teams, we're judging players here and Mitch Marner is a better player than Barzal.

 

[Critical13]

I am just using the arguments leaf fans have been pushing for years. Which way do you want it? Do results matter or only points. I can't figure out which matters most, just depends on the way the wind blows I guess.

Ah, so now this is some kind of "Leaf fan" thing.

Show your work - why is Barzal better? Let's see some analysis.

If I had to guess, you are just trolling for reactions as usual and won't bother but I'd love to see you prove me wrong.

 

[blinkman360]

Not going to shit on Marner or what he's accomplished but looking at stats to compare a guy playing in an offensive system with other elite offensive players to a guy who is basically a one-man show in a Barry Trotz system seems a bit.....stupid? I guess?

Who knows what Barzal would accomplish in Toronto(the thought of it makes me ill), but I'm pretty confident his numbers would be closer to rookie-Barzal than current-Barzal. It's whatever though - people who watch Barzal on a nightly basis know he's a world class talent, regardless of what the numbers say. I don't think you'd find many Isles fans who would trade him for Marner straight up.

 

[Riseonfire]

Remember when the Caps played 'The wrong way' had had spectacular exit after exit? Keep pumping those points tho, points make a player great. Marner gonna crush it in the playoffs again...

 

[LeafGrief]

If you want to base this all on a 20 game sample size sure. The argument I am making is they are in the same tier. If all the leaf players were as good as you all say they are then they should simply March to the scf without losing a game. Yet somehow that hasn't been the case. Weird.

Marner has blown the doors of Barzal's scoring number for years. He outscored him last year. 67p in 59 games to 60p in 68. Marner outscored Barzal the year before that, 94p in 82 to 62 in 82. How much sample size do you want? Barzal has outscored Marner in one season, three years ago with his 85p in 82 to Marner's 69p in 82.

They are not on the same tier because Mitch Marner has scored dramatically more over his last 3 years than Barzal has at any point in his career, and Barzal's best year came three years ago.

And the tired crap about Leafs players being so good they'd walk to win the Stanley Cup is complete nonsense and you know it.

 

[The Assclown]

Not going to shit on Marner or what he's accomplished but looking at stats to compare a guy playing in an offensive system with other elite offensive players to a guy who is basically a one-man show in a Barry Trotz system seems a bit.....stupid? I guess?

Who knows what Barzal would accomplish in Toronto(the thought of it makes me ill), but I'm pretty confident his numbers would be closer to rookie-Barzal than current-Barzal. It's whatever though - people who watch Barzal on a nightly basis know he's a world class talent, regardless of what the numbers say. I don't think you'd find many Isles fans who would trade him for Marner straight up.

The Leafs are playing in a defensive-minded system this year courtesy of Keefe, wingers down low, moving as unit, versus the cheating you'd typically see in years past.

And Marner's still doing just fine.

 

[bert]

Marner has blown the doors of Barzal's scoring number for years. He outscored him last year. 67p in 59 games to 60p in 68. Marner outscored Barzal the year before that, 94p in 82 to 62 in 82. How much sample size do you want? Barzal has outscored Marner in one season, three years ago with his 85p in 82 to Marner's 69p in 82.

They are not on the same tier because Mitch Marner has scored dramatically more over his last 3 years than Barzal has at any point in his career, and Barzal's best year came three years ago.

And the tired crap about Leafs players being so good they'd walk to win the Stanley Cup is complete nonsense and you know it.

Just keep ignoring Barzals most productive season came when he wasn't playing under Trotz fine by me. If you actually think he has regressed since he was 20 you probably haven't watched a single game.

You know what I do remember. I remember in the playoffs when Barzal went head to head with Crosby and outplayed him. I remember him driving an entire teams offense in a playoff match up and run to the ECF.

What I remember about Marner in the playoffs? Starting a series out strong then disappearing when the games tightened up.

If you think they are in different tiers fine by me. They aren't, if I was building a team I'd take Barzal, however you can't go wrong with either.

Not going to shit on Marner or what he's accomplished but looking at stats to compare a guy playing in an offensive system with other elite offensive players to a guy who is basically a one-man show in a Barry Trotz system seems a bit.....stupid? I guess?

Who knows what Barzal would accomplish in Toronto(the thought of it makes me ill), but I'm pretty confident his numbers would be closer to rookie-Barzal than current-Barzal. It's whatever though - people who watch Barzal on a nightly basis know he's a world class talent, regardless of what the numbers say. I don't think you'd find many Isles fans who would trade him for Marner straight up.

Wait you actually watch him play? And you're using common sense. This won't fly around here dude.

 

[Critical13]

Not going to shit on Marner or what he's accomplished but looking at stats to compare a guy playing in an offensive system with other elite offensive players to a guy who is basically a one-man show in a Barry Trotz system seems a bit.....stupid? I guess?

Who knows what Barzal would accomplish in Toronto(the thought of it makes me ill), but I'm pretty confident his numbers would be closer to rookie-Barzal than current-Barzal. It's whatever though - people who watch Barzal on a nightly basis know he's a world class talent, regardless of what the numbers say. I don't think you'd find many Isles fans who would trade him for Marner straight up.

No one is saying he isn't a world class talent. It's okay to vote against your players. I voted Drai or Matthews earlier this year, I've voted Pasta over Marner in every poll I've ever had the chance to vote in. I also got reemed for choosing Barzal for my Team Canada squad.

It's telling that no one can provide any kind of argument outside of "system" and "you just don't watch him".

 

[Critical13]

Just keep ignoring Barzals most productive season came when he wasn't playing under Trotz fine by me. If you actually think he has regressed since he was 20 you probably haven't watched a single game.

You know what I do remember. I remember in the playoffs when Barzal went head to head with Crosby and outplayed him. I remember him driving an entire teams offense in a playoff match up and run to the ECF.

What I remember about Marner in the playoffs? Starting a series out strong then disappearing when the games tightened up.

If you think they are in different tiers fine by me. They aren't, if I was building a team I'd take Barzal, however you can't go wrong with either.

Interesting that someone who has been arguing about systems this entire thread suddenly doesn't acknowledge the gap between scoring against the Penguins and scoring against Boston and Columbus (both top 3-5 teams in GA during those periods). I guess, like you said, some arguments are only used when they favour people's point