Speculation: Barrie

[rent free]

Welp, I found your problem.

what? tons of player sign for less than 1.75 and they'd probably be as good of a fit as barrie was. a guy like shattenkirk comes to mind

 

[Menzinger]

Is there anyone who wouldn't undo this trade if they could?

In retrospect i think I would have preferred targeting another D man.

That said, i think your question may be a bit too soon to say. How Kerfoot fairs moving forward will play a big rolein shaping how folks view the trade. If the gap between he and Kadri is small (or even say favors Kerfoot) tlin the coming seasons it would change perceptions

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

what? tons of player sign for less than 1.75 and they'd probably be as good of a fit as barrie was. a guy like shattenkirk comes to mind

Getting a player as good as Barrie for 2.75 million is already extremely rare. Finding one for 1.75 is not realistic

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Agreed and the blind lovers might be even worse. Imagining Lou Lam would have traded Nylander for a 6th as a way to boost Dubas might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read here and I’ve been here a long time.
The Kadri trade may be the only move he’s made that seems to get 100% agreement that it turned out to be an awful deal.

I don't think it was an awful deal. Was it what I would have done/expected? Probably not. I also don't know what was out there outside of the rejected Calgary deal. I would have done the deal over keeping Kadri to play on our 3rd line and watching his value plummet more, which seems to be the alternative people are proposing. His production and ability went down because he was not getting a lot of ice time. It's not Kadri's fault, but that's the nature of having two franchise 1C's ahead of you on the depth chart. It likely would have been even worse had Keefe been his HC, because unlike Babcock, he actually uses Matthews like he should.

Now if I knew there was an offer like Kadri for a better fit than Barrie with more term straight up, I would have preferred and likely taken that over the Barrie deal. However there has not been any indication of an offer like that being available, and there is no indication that Dubas was not looking at different deal structures, so it's all speculation. Additionally, solely based on value, Barrie with 50% retention was probably worth the same amount as 1.5 years of Muzzin (2 B prospects and a late 1st). Even if you take out the rest of the deal and made it Kadri for Barrie, Kadri returned somewhere in the range of 2 B prospects and a 1st... At least. I think the closest comparable to Kadri's value at the time was probably Brayden Schenn, who returned 2 1st round picks (one of which was 27th, the other which was top 10 protected with an additional 3rd added if it was deferred) but Philly also had to take on the very inflated contract of Jori Lehtera (4.7 mill each year for two years) in the same deal. So we did better than that. Otherwise, O'Reilly and Duchene were more valuable players but returned more in their trade (although O'Reilly did not return significantly more IMO).

So value-wise, I think it was actually a very good deal. Fit-wise, it was below average, but likely still the best it was going to be. For me, it does not really go under the 'plus' nor 'minus' category. Definitely not worthy of a thread to complain/compliment about it anyways.

 

[rent free]

Getting a player as good as Barrie for 2.75 million is already extremely rare. Finding one for 1.75 is not realistic

as good as barrie isn't that hard to find

 

[BrannigansLaw]

But his ability to push play up ice is upper echelon and the result was the ability to play neutral in those minutes. Something a Del Zotto or other cheap UFA wouldn't have been able to do.

Looking strictly at trade vs no trade there's a very real case to be made that no trade = no playoffs.
Dermott-Holl
Marincin-xxxx
Sandin-Liljegren

with xxx being random filler doesn't hold up was well through that stretch as with Barrie there. If we swap Kerfoot+Barrie straight across for Kadri+1.75m or less dman there's a good chance we're not in the playoffs given the way our D was decimated. It's not even about Tyson Barrie specifically, just that we got a dman of that ability for this season. You can argue about hypothetical options or other long term impacts, or that the deal wasn't as positive as originally hoped, but it did make a positive difference this season IMO, and with playoffs likely upcoming we don't know the extent of that.

Well, I can't disagree with you completely here. I'm not naive enough to believe you could plug a scrub like Roman Polak in there at 1.75 and expect the same results. It has all been awhile seen we've watched some games though. I know he has a good outlet pass but I'm not certain how well he has actually utilized it. I mean, he has a lot of great offensive tools that just haven't translated here.

But man he really is not a good defenseman. At all. He may be able to help us squeak into the playoffs but he is literally one of the last players I'd count on to step up

 

[Dekes For Days]

But man he really is not a good defenseman.

Except he is a good defensemen, regardless of whether your flawed eye test can see it or not.

He may be able to help us squeak into the playoffs but he is literally one of the last players I'd count on to step up

Barrie was by far the best defenseman and one of the best players in Colorado's run last year.

 

[ACC1224]

Well, I can't disagree with you completely here. I'm not naive enough to believe you could plug a scrub like Roman Polak in there at 1.75 and expect the same results. It has all been awhile seen we've watched some games though. I know he has a good outlet pass but I'm not certain how well he has actually utilized it. I mean, he has a lot of great offensive tools that just haven't translated here.

But man he really is not a good defenseman. At all. He may be able to help us squeak into the playoffs but he is literally one of the last players I'd count on to step up

He may help on the PP but you know teams will throw the puck to his corner every time down the ice and he will continue to be second to retrieve it.
I was pleased when he was brought in but he's turned into such a disappointing player. Defensemen cannot be successful when they play to not get hurt.
A trade that we had high hopes for turned into crap.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It was overwhelmingly seen as a massive win at the time, by Leafs fans, and by literally everybody in all corners of the hockey world. Now, with hindsight, the large majority still see it as an overall beneficial move; the large majority just aren't on HFboards, which skews heavily in the negative.

Believe what you will. I don't think most people on here are hockey neophytes.

 

[The Podium]

I don’t think the value returned was bad, especially considering Barries retention. However, the requirement of a 3rd line C replacement minimized the value on the D returned. At the same time this deal was Dubas’ plan B, I wonder how Brodie + Jankowski would have faired.

All in all, it was a poor long term return on a valuable asset.

My biggest question mark is how effective Kadri could’ve been as a winger. Wish Babs was more progressive and put him in a Hyman role alongside Matthews or Tavares.

 

[LeafSteel]

Never wanted Barrie.

Have always hated the trade and will always hate the trade.

Wasted a prime asset in Kadri. Nothing better out there? Ok, keep Kadri and don’t waste a trade on a player like Barrie.

Kerfoot is nothing special.

I get what Dubas was swinging for on this, but he whiffed and struck out.

 

[Notsince67]

There are haters who will find a way to s*** on him no matter what he does (or does not) do, and they'll even make crap up to try to make it stick. Unless he does exactly what they want, which would lead the team right down the toilet, they won't be happy... So I guess the more they complain, the more he is doing a good job.

I dont think that there are many people who would argue that Kadri wasnt a surplus player. The problem is that the trade wasnt a decent one. The team lost grit in Kadri and didnt patch the defensive zone denial ability that they lost with Gards. Gards had some warts but his zone denial stats were pretty elite. I even question Barrie's ability to move the puck anywhere before the neutral zone. The team needed more than a forward masquerading as a dman.

 

[LeafGrief]

Liked the idea at the time, but this is a trade that didn't work out. That said, if Barrie can play well in the playoffs/play-in, that will go a long way towards redeeming things.

I wish him luck next year, wherever that may be, and look forward to the relief of not watching him struggle.

 

[GBLeaf]

I'd have kept Kadri 100% and if a trade had to happen, gone for a more cost controlled D in exchange.

 

[TheProspector]

Mikko Lehtonen might be better. And, yes, I realise that's a pretty crazy thing to say.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Mikko Lehtonen might be better. And, yes, I realise that's a pretty crazy thing to say.

Not crazy at all. Anyone’s grandmother might be better than Barrie in the d-zone.

I'd have kept Kadri 100% and if a trade had to happen, gone for a more cost controlled D in exchange.

By far the worst trade we’ve done in at least a few decades. May as well have just given Kadri away for free...We are much worse defensively with Barrie than we would be having a useless plug with any semblance of defensive competence.

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

I was open minded to the trade when it first happened but when I looked into a bit further, it just looked like Barrie was a glorified extension of the Mackinnon line. Barrie is trash defensively, I could really care less about what numbers anyone tries to throw at me. Take notice of how Colorado plugged a rookie Makar in and how Colorado is performing even better both offensively and defensively. They knew exactly what they had with Barrie and made us the unlucky suckers. Would it kill people to admit that Dubas f***ed up on this one?

 

[Ifittex il Verita]

I don’t think the value returned was bad, especially considering Barries retention. However, the requirement of a 3rd line C replacement minimized the value on the D returned. At the same time this deal was Dubas’ plan B, I wonder how Brodie + Jankowski would have faired.

All in all, it was a poor long term return on a valuable asset.

My biggest question mark is how effective Kadri could’ve been as a winger. Wish Babs was more progressive and put him in a Hyman role alongside Matthews or Tavares.

Seems like a fair question to me, Babs could have been more flexible with the lineup to try to not have Kadri stuck at third line center... But what's also fair is to criticize Dubas for acquiring the completely wrong type of center to replace him. We need a 3C who can kill penalties and provide some grit/toughness, instead he gets us a 1 dimensional PP specialist who can't do much of anything else...

I really do chuckle to myself just how bad he f***ed the deal up.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Seems like a fair question to me, Babs could have been more flexible with the lineup to try to not have Kadri stuck at third line center... But what's also fair is to criticize Dubas for acquiring the completely wrong type of center to replace him. We need a 3C who can kill penalties and provide some grit/toughness, instead he gets us a 1 dimensional PP specialist who can't do much of anything else...

I really do chuckle to myself just how bad he f***ed the deal up.

I also guarantee Kadri wouldn’t have gotten suspended so much if the team wasn’t neutered of grit. Kadri had to carry the whole team on his back and understandably got over emotional when Boston was wrecking his teammates without recourse. If we had at least Clifford back then I don’t see those scenarios playing out the way they did leading to suspensions. One of the worst trades of all time.

There’s good reason Kadri never got suspended in the playoffs when they had Martin and Komarov, the 2017 Capitals played just as heavy as Boston too.

 

[Kurtz]

Not crazy at all. Anyone’s grandmother might be better than Barrie in the d-zone.


By far the worst trade we’ve done in at least a few decades. May as well have just given Kadri away for free...We are much worse defensively with Barrie than we would be having a useless plug with any semblance of defensive competence.

That's a little overboard. We've had a few doozies. Rask for Raycroft ring a bell, for example? The Owen Nolan trade. Phil trade.

 

[The Podium]

Seems like a fair question to me, Babs could have been more flexible with the lineup to try to not have Kadri stuck at third line center... But what's also fair is to criticize Dubas for acquiring the completely wrong type of center to replace him. We need a 3C who can kill penalties and provide some grit/toughness, instead he gets us a 1 dimensional PP specialist who can't do much of anything else...

I really do chuckle to myself just how bad he f***ed the deal up.

Kerfoot had, before the deal, and has after, strong defensive metrics. He is literally anything but a PP specialist. I also find him very effective as a C but very vanilla as a W.

I think a lot of fans soured on him around the time he came back from injury playing wing with Tavares. But pre-injury and right before the stoppage he was a very effective two-way C.

I agree he isn’t the most ideal 3C, but my issue is more with Barrie than Kerfoot in that deal.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

That's a little overboard. We've had a few doozies. Rask for Raycroft ring a bell, for example? The Owen Nolan trade. Phil trade.

Ya you’re right but at least Rask was unproven at the time and with the Kessel trade we didn’t expect to finish 29th. Most people could see Barrie wasn’t going to be a fit here. Was such a mind-boggling trade and was made worse by the contract contrasts and that Barrie doesn’t play nearly as well in the spotlight and pressure in TO. Kerfoot is very average and I couldn’t even remember his name for a bit already..

Ya we sure have a history of bad moves and I thought it would end with Dubas but here we stand, giving away a heart and soul player with a quality contract for a garbage rental who can’t play a lick of D. Otherwise I think Dubas has done alright.

 

[Mickey Marner]

By far the worst trade we’ve done in at least a few decades. May as well have just given Kadri away for free...We are much worse defensively with Barrie than we would be having a useless plug with any semblance of defensive competence.

Nah, it was bad, but the Leafs have had some doozies this millennium. Rask for Raycroft; Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak; 30th (Rakell) and 39th (Gibson) for 22nd (Biggs), Two 1sts (Seguin & Hamilton) and one 2nd (Knight) for Kessel.

Edit. Nevermind I see this has already been responded to several times.

 

[Menzinger]

Kerfoot had, before the deal, and has after, strong defensive metrics. He is literally anything but a PP specialist. I also find him very effective as a C but very vanilla as a W.

I think a lot of fans soured on him around the time he came back from injury playing wing with Tavares. But pre-injury and right before the stoppage he was a very effective two-way C.

I agree he isn’t the most ideal 3C, but my issue is more with Barrie than Kerfoot in that deal.

Yeah, i think Kerfoot may surprise folks now that hes gotten more used to the new city and team and will have gotten over more having his face broken....

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah, i think Kerfoot may surprise folks now that hes gotten more used to the new city and team and will have gotten over more having his face broken....

You mean we shouldn't judge players exclusively on how they play adjusting to two different new systems, in a new city, in a full face-mask they aren't used to, with facial fractures, while changing line, position, and role on a daily basis?