Barkov vs Matthews

[Deficient Mode]

At the end of day they both scored at a ppg rate last season.

At the end of the day, per game production is a terrible way to assess players in general and in particular when comparing two players one of whom played twice as many power play minutes as the other, and of whose points a far greater share were secondary assists.

 

[FiveFourteenSixOne]

Last season Barkov was the better player. If this poll is based on their past accomplishments then the answer is easily Barkov. If the poll is based on who is going to be better over the next 10 years, then you're crazy if you don't pick Matthews.

 

[BB88]

At the end of the day, per game production is a terrible way to assess players in general and in particular when comparing two players one of whom played twice as many power play minutes as the other, and of whose points a far greater share were secondary assists.

The other played heavy defensive minutes to cover teams weak depth, and so on.

Again, at the end of day they both produced at a ppg rate, and Barkov is Floridas engine.

 

[Deficient Mode]

The other played heavy defensive minutes to cover teams weak depth, and so on.

Again, at the end of day they both produced at a ppg rate, and Barkov is Floridas engine.

Those "defensive" minutes weren't nearly difficult enough to explain why Matthews scored 80% more primary points per minute last year than Barkov (2.6 per 60 to 1.44). Not even close. A 10% difference in zone starts isn't going to double your scoring rate. That's absurd.

 

[BB88]

Those "defensive" minutes weren't nearly difficult enough to explain why Matthews scored 80% more primary points per minute last year than Barkov (2.6 per 60 to 1.44). Not even close. A 10% difference in zone starts isn't going to double your scoring rate. That's absurd.

Both scored at a ppg rate and anyone who watches Florida knows who drives the play in Florida.

Some of you seem to think playing defense doesn't take energy at all, it just saves energy for offense, like hell yeah.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Both scored at a ppg rate and anyone who watches Florida knows who drives the play in Florida.

Some of you seem to think playing defense doesn't take energy at all, it just saves energy for offense, like hell yeah.

Nice strawman you're building there. I never said anything to the contrary of any of this. If you don't think there's anything to offense beyond points per game, be my guest.

 

[BB88]

Nice strawman you're building there. I never said anything to the contrary of any of this. If you don't think there's anything to offense beyond points per game, be my guest.

It's stupid to use p60 when one of the guys kills penalties and takes ton of extra faceoffs to cover for their abysmal depth. That lowers his p60 and takes a ton of energy from a player to get used like a #1D as a forward. But some of you can't seem to think beyond blind stat watching.

We can look at goals, points and ppg if you want.

 

[Regal]

Has nothing to do with the Leafs not playing Matthews 22 minutes a game, I never want him to get that high up in minutes.

Panthers have two centers playing over 21 minutes a game, they would be better served spreading those minutes out more.

If Matthews did play 22 minutes a game though, and had 3+ minutes on that Marner PP, he'd blow Barkov's numbers out of the water.

If you think playing that many minutes doesn't have a negative impact on a player's rate stats then why would you be against your best player being on the ice that much longer?

 

[elmaco]

I'll take the PPG selke candidate.

 

[Bando]

Oh look yet another Leafs player on the verge of losing a poll when he should be far ahead. Barkov hasn't even hit 30 goals yet in his 5 NHL seasons. Matthews on the other hand with 40 and 34 goal seasons, the latter season missing 20 games.

[mod] I was surprised it took till the second page for a leaf fan to use this.

Its barkov now, maybe mathews in the future.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Has nothing to do with the Leafs not playing Matthews 22 minutes a game, I never want him to get that high up in minutes.

Panthers have two centers playing over 21 minutes a game, they would be better served spreading those minutes out more.

If Matthews did play 22 minutes a game though, and had 3+ minutes on that Marner PP, he'd blow Barkov's numbers out of the water.

There is just so much wrong in this post. Barkov kills PIMS while Matthews does not. Barkov killing PIMS because he is better defensively than Matthews does not help his offensive numbers. They are used to prevent goals, not score them.

BTW Matthews led all Leafs fwds in average mins per game last year. Also the same PP unit he was on last year, the year before he scored 21 PPP. Leafs had the #2 best PP unit in the NHL last year due to mostly the #1 unit. It made no sense to play Matthews on the #1 unit. Not unless one was playing fantasy EA sports.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

There is just so much wrong in this post. Barkov kills PIMS while Matthews does not. Barkov killing PIMS because he is better defensively than Matthews does not help his offensive numbers. They are used to prevent goals, not score them.

BTW Matthews led all Leafs fwds in average mins per game last year. Also the same PP unit he was on last year, the year before he scored 21 PPP. Leafs had the #2 best PP unit in the NHL last year due to mostly the #1 unit. It made no sense to play Matthews on the #1 unit. Not unless one was playing fantasy EA sports.

Good points. Adding to this, the Panthers ranked 21st. Even a league average PP would bump Barkov's points up a few.

 

[snipes]

Close but Barkov as of right now. Could easily change soon though.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Jesus 60 point players get overrated these days.

 

[Deficient Mode]

There is just so much wrong in this post. Barkov kills PIMS while Matthews does not. Barkov killing PIMS because he is better defensively than Matthews does not help his offensive numbers. They are used to prevent goals, not score them.

BTW Matthews led all Leafs fwds in average mins per game last year. Also the same PP unit he was on last year, the year before he scored 21 PPP. Leafs had the #2 best PP unit in the NHL last year due to mostly the #1 unit. It made no sense to play Matthews on the #1 unit. Not unless one was playing fantasy EA sports.

And they still had the second best PP in 2016-17 with Matthews getting the second most 5 on 4 minutes on the team. The Leafs have one of the best PPs the past two years because their power play coaching is good and adaptable. Not because some of their stars are much better on the PP than the others. The point isn't to give Matthews max PP time so he can hit 90 points instead. It's that if he had had the same power play opportunity as Barkov this year, he'd have scored 12 more PP points, and even people who cling to points per game above all else couldn't pretend that Barkov's production was the same.

 

[Narow]

Matthews is better than him.

The production might be close, but that has a lot to do with Barkov playing 22 minutes a game, which is just a stupid coaching decision on Florida's part.

Just watching them play you can see Matthews is a better player than Barkov, and will be better than him when he's the same age.

Bump this thread in a year to see it.

I dont know man.. honestly seen both play alot and its not so clear to me.

Offensively i do think it may be matthews (mainly due to his goalscoring) but on defense it is clearly barkov from what i have seen.

Barkovs hands and shootout ability clearly better while playmaking is most likely barkov aswell.

Altho keep in mind barkov has been in the league for alot longer and i do think matthews will surpass him just not quite yet.

Also the differences arent so big in most areas except goalscoring (for matthews) and defense (barkov).

I have seen more of matthews than barkov in the nhl. At the same age im guessing mattthews is ahead by a comfortable margin.

 

[WillTheThrill]

Barkov right now but it will be matthews easily in future.

 

[rinne]

Barkov right now. Only thing Matthews is better at is goal scoring. That said, Matthews might be better at the future. Maybe as soon as next year. Matthews ending up as a better player is likely to happen. Or at least it wouldn't be a surprise based on potential. Matthews already is great offensive player. And for a player as young as he is Matthews has done great things. But that doesn't make him better than Barkov right now. Maybe 22 years Matthews is better than Barkov was at 22. We will see.

Barkov is ~ppg Center who finished 4th in Selke voting. Center who at some nights during last season played #1D like minutes (27-28min TOI/game) because the team had no depth. Barkov is the engine, the soul of that Florida's team. Matthews is yet to show being better than that. Or being even at the same level. And there is nothing wrong with that. Matthews is two years younger than Barkov after all.

 

[ookhaab]

We're talking about the impact of a 4th line center here?

Barkov, Trocheck, McCann, Bjugstad are all capable of playing center on that team, and are a big reason they don't have abysmal center depth.

Bjugstad played most of the season at RW and was way better than at C and McCann was not that good. Dont talk about things you dont know.

 

[elmaco]

www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/definitive-ranking-nhls-top-23-centres-three-seasons/

Yours truly at #4. Don't know the legitimacy of this ranking but seems pretty fair (made sept. 2017).

 

[TheDoldrums]

www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/definitive-ranking-nhls-top-23-centres-three-seasons/

Yours truly at #4. Don't know the legitimacy of this ranking but seems pretty fair (made sept. 2017).

Funny enough, the next article that guy wrote after that was

Why Leafs Auston Matthews might be underrated

"As a rookie, Matthews led all centres in multiple categories, including 5-on-5 goals per 60 minutes, 5-on-5 scoring chances per 60 minutes, 5-on-5 high-danger scoring chances per 60 minutes, and loose-puck recoveries per 60 minutes.

All in all, Matthews’ rookie season would rank him seventh in the NHL among centres, if he were to repeat that year two more times. Keep in mind that when I did this project last year, Connor McDavid's rookie season would have had him ranked sixth"

 

[Laineux]

It's stupid to judge the scoring efficiency of a player taxed to play hardest minutes in the league, 22 minutes a night of highly defensive usage against best players in the world with lots of PK time as well.

It's possible that if Matthews had to face that kind of usage he'd hit a major wall at the 50 game mark and end up scoring no more than 70 points in a full season.

Not that Matthews isn't better offensively, but still. There's a damn good reason why only a couple of forwards in the league get 21-22 minutes a game. It's damn tough. Being able to log those minutes is a major PLUS, not a minus.

 

[Laineux]

Those "defensive" minutes weren't nearly difficult enough to explain why Matthews scored 80% more primary points per minute last year than Barkov (2.6 per 60 to 1.44). Not even close. A 10% difference in zone starts isn't going to double your scoring rate. That's absurd.

Yeah. Matthews' unsustainably high 5vs5 shooting percentage and on-ice shooting percentage do a good job of explaining a lot of that though.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Good points. Adding to this, the Panthers ranked 21st. Even a league average PP would bump Barkov's points up a few.

Barkov already had more PP points than Matthews last year though. Matthews could also improve in that area, substantially.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Barkov killing PIMS because he is better defensively than Matthews does not help his offensive numbers. They are used to prevent goals, not score them.

He had 5 shorthanded goals last season...