Babcock IV (undermining the GM and depth issues?)

[MyBudJT]

Babcock said, "You’re supposed to build the best program you can, so you… don’t miss people. If you have enough, you don’t miss a beat and you just keep going. There’s other teams that have done a better job when different players are out than we have in keeping on going. That just tells you what state we’re at, and you just gotta keep adding better players.”

Interpretation #1 - Dubas is not doing a good job acquiring assets, it's his fault we're not playing well

Interpretation #2 - The "building" isn't done. In order for the Leafs to be to be a truly elite organization they have to keep adding better players

Take you your pick

I don't know why you wouldn't interpret interpretation #2 unless you already dislike Babcock.

 

[moon111]

Before my friend suffered a career-ending injury, he was handling the puck like Marner and Matthews. As a young teen he was getting equipment sent to him. And ex-Leaf and former top scorer on an NHL team stated he was more elite at his age then his team-mates. He was in great shape and never had anyone in his league score more points then his goal totals alone. And the he went up a couple of notches and his team had a completely one-way forward. He didn't have an ounce of two-way play in him. Not to say he couldn't of developed this, but if you look at a player like Matthews, if he's not scoring, they're not winning. But you can't always play wide-open and win. It helps come-back if you're down a goal or two, but overall, at this level it doesn't work. People wonder why Hyman got stuck to him. Right now Matthews sputtered in the playoffs, and again is letting in more then a goal against per game. The Leafs are still immature in their development. If Matthews can play in all situations, the Leafs can dominate, but currently, he's lost.

 

[Northernguy10]

Babcock said, "You’re supposed to build the best program you can, so you… don’t miss people. If you have enough, you don’t miss a beat and you just keep going. There’s other teams that have done a better job when different players are out than we have in keeping on going. That just tells you what state we’re at, and you just gotta keep adding better players.”

Interpretation #1 - Dubas is not doing a good job acquiring assets, it's his fault we're not playing well

Interpretation #2 - The "building" isn't done. In order for the Leafs to be to be a truly elite organization they have to keep adding better players

Take you your pick

You are 100% correct. If and until Babcock clarifies his comments it could be either one but people will continue to argue vehemently that their interpretation is the correct one.

 

[diceman934]

I don't know what went on there (obviously) but considering Babcock's stature, his contract and his ego, I find it hard to believe that he went there under orders that he didn't wish to follow. My guess is that he went because he wanted to go.

Your guess would be wrong. He was asked about Mathews not being happy two days after the season ended. He said he had just had a meeting with him and everything was ok and bingo bango he is on a plane visiting the Mathews shortly there after. Elliot reported that he was going to visit the Mathews as the Mathews were not happy and he did and this was after it was reported that the Mathews were not happy by Kipper.
So why did he need to go visit him when he said that on his exist meetings with him that everything was fine? In Babcock mind and using his own words there was no reason, yet he went.

At the same time Lou was let go. No way Lou would have been in favour of going to visit a player right after the season because the player and parents were not happy. Likely why Lou was let go.

Shanny and Dubas wanted him to go and he did.

 

[Pi]

What does Babcock hope to achieve by "taking shots at Dubas"?

Deflect pressure when he inevitably gets outcoached and loses in the first round against Boston. He will likely skate Hainsey right to the ground and play Zaitsev in crucial moments.

I don’t think it will work though. The media and the fans aren’t that dumb, are they?

Dubas added Muzzin and Tavares to this group and if Babcock thinks he needs more depth and better players so he doesn’t have to overplay players (a total lie), he should find another team to coach.

 

[IPS]

Wait, then what's this post about?



The Leafs play more minutes than their Tampa Bay counterparts

The Leafs breakdown is very simply dependent on defending and chasing leads. When the Leafs are defending a lead, even if it's close, they go with the Hainseys and the Hymans because they are the trusted defensive players. When the Leafs are chasing a lead like they were in Nashville, the top 4 forwards were Marner, Tavares, Matthews, and Nylander (in that order) and Morgan Rielly played 24:30. Last night wasn't nearly as close and Marner played 22:30, Rielly played 25:25.

If you're frustrated that the Leafs are chosing to defend leads instead of looking to extend them, then sure I'm with you there. But your statements about how the Leafs don't get enough minutes compared to their counterparts is simply false. Babcock rides the top guys when the Leafs are chasing games and rides the defenders when they're winning. Because the Leafs aren't chasing many games, the top guys don't get ridden very often, and despite all that, they actually play more minutes than the big guns on the top2 teams in the league.

Please do find that breakdown, I would be very interested in reading it.

Strangely enough, Tampa has actually ramped up their star's TOI in the 2nd half of this year.

Kucherov is averaging over 20 minutes a game in the 2nd half of this year, Hedman's averaging 23 minutes, Point and Stamkos are around 19 minutes.

Babcock's errors come with the support players. Marleau and Hyman play way too much. Tampa takes a more conservative approach with their support players. Their Marleau and Hyman equivalents (guys like Pacquette, Killorn, J.T Miller) are always below 15 minutes. Cooper will never up their ice-time at the expense of their superior players.

"
Babcock rides the top guys when the Leafs are chasing games and rides the defenders when they're winning. Because the Leafs aren't chasing many games, the top guys don't get ridden very often, and despite all that, they actually play more minutes than the big guns on the top2 teams in the league."

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong about this. Babcock does not do this, he still trots Hyman, Marleau, and Brown out for regular shiftss many games when we're trailing. Tampa does not do this. We do not use the same deployment they do when they're trailing.

If we're doing TOI comparisons I much prefer to do comparisons with Washington and Pittsburgh rather than Tampa because at this point, Tampa is so far ahead of the pack that they will obviously be using different methodology with their TOI deployment as far as developing their youngsters go, their youngin Cernak is actually 2nd in TOI in Tampa's last 30 games.

When we look at Pittsburgh and Washington, you'll find a very common trend. Their 4 best forwards always lead TOI, you'll find a stark drop-off in TOI from their 4th best forward to their 5th. Ours don't, we have Zach Hyman jammed in there getting more TOI than superior forwards. And our star players play less than theirs, you can go see it for yourself.

 

[egd27]

I don't know why you wouldn't interpret interpretation #2 unless you already dislike Babcock.

And your point...............?

 

[Nithoniniel]

At the same time Lou was let go. No way Lou would have been in favour of going to visit a player right after the season because the player and parents were not happy. Likely why Lou was let go.

I think you were right about Babcock being told to go patch things up with the Matthews family.

I don't really think that's the reason they stepped away from Lou. That would be a petty reason to make such a huge decision on, and Shanahan doesn't strike me as petty.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lol, I'll let you calm down now. I just don't know how you expect me to take an article seriously when he clearly states he doesn't know if anything is going on ..

If you need to calm down then by all means, take a minute or two, whatever you need.

The article also "clearly states" that Babcock has repeatedly taken shots at management. Just keep ignoring it, maybe it'll go away.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Your guess would be wrong. He was asked about Mathews not being happy two days after the season ended. He said he had just had a meeting with him and everything was ok and bingo bango he is on a plane visiting the Mathews shortly there after. Elliot reported that he was going to visit the Mathews as the Mathews were not happy and he did and this was after it was reported that the Mathews were not happy by Kipper.
So why did he need to go visit him when he said that on his exist meetings with him that everything was fine? In Babcock mind and using his own words there was no reason, yet he went.

At the same time Lou was let go. No way Lou would have been in favour of going to visit a player right after the season because the player and parents were not happy. Likely why Lou was let go.

Shanny and Dubas wanted him to go and he did.

I don't think anyone can know for sure but I see no reason to change my opinion. Babcock is paid a zillion dollars, he has job security, I'm pretty sure making out of town visits to players isn't something that he's obligated to do so if he doesn't want to do it I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't do it. Why would he?

Deflect pressure when he inevitably gets outcoached and loses in the first round against Boston. He will likely skate Hainsey right to the ground and play Zaitsev in crucial moments.

I don’t think it will work though. The media and the fans aren’t that dumb, are they?

Dubas added Muzzin and Tavares to this group and if Babcock thinks he needs more depth and better players so he doesn’t have to overplay players (a total lie), he should find another team to coach.

Yup. This is one of the most talented rosters in the NHL, complaining that he doesn't have all the pieces he wants is a joke as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Pi]

I don't think anyone can know for sure but I see no reason to change my opinion. Babcock is paid a zillion dollars, he has job security, I'm pretty sure making out of town visits to players isn't something that he's obligated to do so if he doesn't want to do it I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't do it. Why would he?



Yup. This is one of the most talented rosters in the NHL, complaining that he doesn't have all the pieces he wants is a joke as far as I'm concerned.

I feel like he’s basically asking for Team Canada’s roster at the moment.

Babcock isn’t some legendary coach. He only won once with the best team ever assembled in the cap era.

He’s basically giving out excuses for losing before he even loses.

 

[LeafGrief]

well, no.

1.the Leafs play very similar minutes as their Tampa Bay counterparts, despite the fact that the leafs have been involved in many more close games than Tampa has, and many more games in which they were trailing than tampa has.

Rielly 22:58 --- Hedman 22:50
Gardiner 21:12 - McDonagh 21:56
Muzzin 20:24 - Stralman 20:30

Marner 19:40 - Kucherov 19:46
Tavares 19:04 - Point 18:46
Matthews 18:25 - Stamkos 18:15

very, very similar....despite the factors mentioned above.

and if you have any doubt about how game situation affects their ice time even under the same coach, it's easy to just look at last year, when they weren't blowing out teams near as often:

Hedman 25:51
Stralman 21:29
McDonagh 21:17

Kucherov 19:49
Point 19:37
Stamkos 18:45

more ice time across the board.

Okay, the Leafs play the same minutes as their Tampa counterparts. I don't particularly agree with "More ice time across the board" since Kucherov played 3 seconds more/game last year. You call 10 and 18 second differences in the Leafs' favour "very similar", so I'm not really going to agree that a 20 and 30 second difference in the Bolts' favour is groundbreaking. The only player that actually stands out is Hedman, so I'll buy your argument there, but it falls completely flat on the forwards. Considering that Babcock has no problem playing Rielly 25 minutes in close games (guy had 50 minutes combined between Nashville and Buffalo) or Marner 22+ (9x this year), I fail to see why this is a problem worth banging the drum over.

yep. while every other teams get the benefit of playing their elite players more minutes no matter what, the leafs have to play by different rules, and not give their players the same kind of minutes unless they outwork everyone every shift.

I'm really glad that we got past that little speed-bump, especially the "more minutes no matter what" bit.

I agree with your general premise that Babcock should ride the star players more than he does, but I vehemently disagree with the magnitude of the problem as you're presenting it. I really would love to see that breakdown of usage by game with lots of numbers because I think it would be a great piece of analysis to read.

 

[diceman934]

I think you were right about Babcock being told to go patch things up with the Matthews family.

I don't really think that's the reason they stepped away from Lou. That would be a petty reason to make such a huge decision on, and Shanahan doesn't strike me as petty.

I do. Shanny gets credited for making a lot of great decisions. Lou was the GM in charge of the coach etc. He would never have sent his coach to visit a player under those circumstances. I believe the plan was for Lou to get the 3 contracts done and then turn the reins over to Dubas. Shanny and Lou disagreed about sending Babs to see the Mathews and no way it happened with Lou still being the GM. So the plan was advanced one year. The fact that Lou was not present at the announcement of Dubas is very telling. Lou is a lot of things but he is never been disrespectful and not showing up to the announcement shows that this was not the plan at all. All the interviews with Lou up to that point was him speaking about Dubas taking over. He was fine with that, but not then and the way it happened.

 

[ACC1224]

Deflect pressure when he inevitably gets outcoached and loses in the first round against Boston. He will likely skate Hainsey right to the ground and play Zaitsev in crucial moments.

I don’t think it will work though. The media and the fans aren’t that dumb, are they?

Dubas added Muzzin and Tavares to this group and if Babcock thinks he needs more depth and better players so he doesn’t have to overplay players (a total lie), he should find another team to coach.

Interesting thought.
I wouldn't have expected someone that we're told is so ego driven to be planting seeds for his eventual demise.
Sounds like he's very insecure.

 

[Pi]

I do. Shanny gets credited for making a lot of great decisions. Lou was the GM in charge of the coach etc. He would never have sent his coach to visit a player under those circumstances. I believe the plan was for Lou to get the 3 contracts done and then turn the reins over to Dubas. Shanny and Lou disagreed about sending Babs to see the Mathews and no way it happened with Lou still being the GM. So the plan was advanced one year. The fact that Lou was not present at the announcement of Dubas is very telling. Lou is a lot of things but he is never been disrespectful and not showing up to the announcement shows that this was not the plan at all. All the interviews with Lou up to that point was him speaking about Dubas taking over. He was fine with that, but not then and the way it happened.

Those contracts would not look good if Lou signed them based on Zaitsev and Marleau contracts. We dodged a bullet.

Lou also spoke to Tavares representing the Islanders while he was still a member of the Leafs as an advisor.

Glad they didn’t end up getting Tavares after Shanahan did him a favour and let him speak to the Isles ownership.

 

[IPS]

Considering that Babcock has no problem playing Rielly 25 minutes in close games (guy had 50 minutes combined between Nashville and Buffalo) or Marner 22+ (9x this year), I fail to see why this is a problem worth banging the drum over.

You act like he's done this all year. He hasn't, many many games he makes no adjustments to his TOI deployment when we're trailing in a game, seeing Hyman or Komarov or Marleau lead TOI for forwards after a game when we're trailing for 40 minutes happened many times.

This drum is getting banged for a very good reason.

 

[ACC1224]

If you need to calm down then by all means, take a minute or two, whatever you need.

The article also "clearly states" that Babcock has repeatedly taken shots at management. Just keep ignoring it, maybe it'll go away.

How does the author know that was Babcocks intention?
Perhaps that's just the authors opinion?

 

[diceman934]

Those contracts would not look good if Lou signed them based on Zaitsev and Marleau contracts. We dodged a bullet.

Lou also spoke to Tavares representing the Islanders while he was still a member of the Leafs as an advisor.

Glad they didn’t end up getting Tavares after Shanahan did him a favour and let him speak to the Isles ownership.

Lol. Not a chance would the contract look worse in my opinion.

Lou had permission to talk to the Islanders. In fact the Islanders approached the Leafs before the season ended seeking permission to talk to Lou.

 

[Gary Nylund]

How does the author know that was Babcocks intention?
Perhaps that's just the authors opinion?

Of course it's just the authors opinion. The same can be said for every article ever printed, what's your point?

It's just an opinion, an opinion that's shared by many, many people, including me.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I feel like he’s basically asking for Team Canada’s roster at the moment.

Babcock isn’t some legendary coach. He only won once with the best team ever assembled in the cap era.

He’s basically giving out excuses for losing before he even loses.

Yeah I had the same thought a day or two ago. It's a scary thought, he shouldn't even be thinking about losing to Boston IMHO.

 

[diceman934]

Do people really watch games. Serious question.
All this talk about ice time in the last two games is laughable at best.

When Babcock stated he now has to use his top players more he was talking about his D man. He was not lying. One poster constantly referring to that comment as false news. Watch the game and see. It was a fact not a lie.

Why am I the only person who pointed out that in the last two games we have not had a 3rd pair D man.

Holl and Oz have not played a shift together in the last two games. They each played with Rielly, Haisney or Muzzin. Hence the increase of ice time for Rielly and company and the reduction of ice time for Holl and Oz.

 

[ACC1224]

Of course it's just the authors opinion. The same can be said for every article ever printed, what's your point?

It's just an opinion, an opinion that's shared by many, many people, including me.

My mistake, I thought you were using that as proof that your opinion is in fact, fact.

Carry on.

 

[LeafGrief]

Strangely enough, Tampa has actually ramped up their star's TOI in the 2nd half of this year.

Kucherov is averaging over 20 minutes a game in the 2nd half of this year, Hedman's averaging 23 minutes, Point and Stamkos are around 19 minutes.

Babcock's errors come with the support players. Marleau and Hyman play way too much. Tampa takes a more conservative approach with their support players. Their Marleau and Hyman equivalents (guys like Pacquette, Killorn, J.T Miller) are always below 15 minutes. Cooper will never up their ice-time at the expense of their superior players.

"
Babcock rides the top guys when the Leafs are chasing games and rides the defenders when they're winning. Because the Leafs aren't chasing many games, the top guys don't get ridden very often, and despite all that, they actually play more minutes than the big guns on the top2 teams in the league."

Sorry but you are absolutely wrong about this. Babcock does not do this, he still trots Hyman, Marleau, and Brown out for regular shiftss many games when we're trailing. Tampa does not do this. We do not use the same deployment they do when they're trailing.

If we're doing TOI comparisons I much prefer to do comparisons with Washington and Pittsburgh rather than Tampa because at this point, Tampa is so far ahead of the pack that they will obviously be using different methodology with their TOI deployment as far as developing their youngsters go, their youngin Cernak is actually 2nd in TOI in Tampa's last 30 games.

When we look at Pittsburgh and Washington, you'll find a very common trend. Their 4 best forwards always lead TOI, you'll find a stark drop-off in TOI from their 4th best forward to their 5th. Ours don't, we have Zach Hyman jammed in there getting more TOI than superior forwards. And our star players play less than theirs, you can go see it for yourself.

Babcock does make errors with support players, I'll stand right there with you and wish Marleau was on the fourth line and that Hainsey had way less work load. That's a pretty significant departure from the conversation that I was having, so I didn't address it, but I largely agree.

I'm really happy with your bolded paragraph, here's another post I made:

When the Penguins won the cup in 16-17 Crosby played 19:24 a night in the playoffs. Malkin 18:40. In 15-16 Crosby played 20:26 and Malkin 17:31. Washington played their top guns about 20:30 last year.

To further go in on your last paragraph, have a look at the Leafs ice times for the last few games. The sharp drop off is usually after 3 because Nylander gets crappy PP time, but there's often a two minute gap between our 3rd or 4th forward and the Hyman's and Marleau's of the world. Babcock isn't perfect, I won't defend him as such and I have plenty of bones to pick with his usage (especially Marleau tbh) but you're trying to convince me there's a problem when the margins are 20 seconds here and 30 seconds there. I'd rather Matthews get those minutes, I'd play him 25 if I was the coach, but I'm not going to call for a coach's head. Over the course of the season, there's a 70 second gap between our #3 and our #4 forwards. That sounds like what you're asking for tbh.

 

[Pi]

Lol. Not a chance would the contract look worse in my opinion.

Lou had permission to talk to the Islanders and had islanders permission to talk to JT. Infact the Islanders approached the Leafs before the season ended seeking permission to talk to Lou.

Lou had permission to speak to the Islanders ownership regarding a job.

Shanahan has no idea he was going to start recruiting Tavares to say before he even had the job title.

What Lou did was wrong.

“Larry Brooks reports that neither Islanders GM Garth Snow or LeafsPresident Brendan Shanahan were aware of the agreement for Lou Lamoriello to talk to John Tavares about his status ahead of free agency before Lamoriello officially left for the Islanders organization.

The deal between the Islanders and Maple Leafs that allowed Lou Lamoriello to talk with John Tavares even while the exec was still under contract as a senior adviser to Toronto was orchestrated by ownership, Slap Shots has learned.

It is believed that neither Islanders’ then-president and apparently still-GM Garth Snow nor the Maple Leafs’ president Brendan Shanahan was aware of the agreement. In fact, we’re further told that Snow and coach Doug Weight were kept out of the loop regarding ownership’s talks with Lamoriello while the two men were scouting at the World Championships in Denmark.”

Total snake move that didnt pan out.

 

[Gary Nylund]

My mistake, I thought you were using that as proof that your opinion is in fact, fact.

Carry on.

I'm pretty sure I've never passed my opinion off as fact.