Babcock IV (undermining the GM and depth issues?)

A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,284
17,190
What depth concerns are there really; we are deeper than most teams. Is it all in Babcock's head?

We are deep on forward and in goal with NHL experience.

We literally have 9 defensemen with ~50 NHL games experience: Rielly Hainsey Gardiner Zaitsev Muzzin Ozhiganov Dermott Marincin Borgman

We also have 4 more guys who are NHL ready in a pinch: Holl Liljegren Sandin Rosen.

IMO this coach is full of ****. What other coaches go on about depth when injuries hit...Cassidy? Gallant? No they ****ing coach. He is blatantly undermining the GM for no reason.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Babcock complained about having to play his best players too much in a game he did this:

Rielly 24:37
Muzzin 22:00

Tavares 19:28
Marner 19:13
Matthews 18:19


seriously.

in a league where other teams are playing forwards 25+ mpg and dmen 30+ mpg when they need to, Babcock is actually complaining that he's being forced to play dmen not even 25mpg and forwards not even 20mpg.

it doesn't even make sense.

the man has lost it.
 

KuleminFan41

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
5,845
614
Leafs have little to no defensive depth and the injuries to Dermott and Gardiner show just how thin they really are. Most teams in the NHL would struggle if they lost 2 of their top 4 defencemen . Since the loss of both Dermott and Gardiner the Leafs conceded 6 goals vs New York, Ottawa, Philadelphia , and Tampa, while conceding 5 goals against Chicago in that time. It's no coincidence that the Leafs defence got significantly worse without 2 of their better defenders, it shows that not everything can be blamed on Mike Babcock.
 

Ziggdiezan

Registered User
Apr 10, 2015
10,847
5,676
It is both the coaching staffs fault and the players fault for the bad play these past few months.

It is the coaching staffs fault because they are using an outdated system which doesn't fit with the rosters strengths and weaknesses.

It is the players fault for not putting in near enough effort (especially defensively) and not being hard enough to play against.

I get how frustrated Babcock is watching the talent he has and how good he knows they could be but half the games they dont decide to show up until the third period.

Madness. Even if the players arent playing for the coach, play for the logo on the jersey and for the fans.
 
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A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,284
17,190
Leafs have little to no defensive depth and the injuries to Dermott and Gardiner show just how thin they really are. Most teams in the NHL would struggle if they lost 2 of their top 4 defencemen . Since the loss of both Dermott and Gardiner the Leafs conceded 6 goals vs New York, Ottawa, Philadelphia , and Tampa, while conceding 5 goals against Chicago in that time. It's no coincidence that the Leafs defence got significantly worse without 2 of their better defenders, it shows that not everything can be blamed on Mike Babcock.
Boston lost two/three of their top 4 dmen this year at the same time.

Vegas was into their 6th goalie last year.

Coaches don't whine, they coach with who they got.
 
Last edited:

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
73,092
38,153
Leafs have little to no defensive depth and the injuries to Dermott and Gardiner show just how thin they really are. Most teams in the NHL would struggle if they lost 2 of their top 4 defencemen . Since the loss of both Dermott and Gardiner the Leafs conceded 6 goals vs New York, Ottawa, Philadelphia , and Tampa, while conceding 5 goals against Chicago in that time. It's no coincidence that the Leafs defence got significantly worse without 2 of their better defenders, it shows that not everything can be blamed on Mike Babcock.
Yeah that seems apparent.
 

CDN24

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
3,459
2,771
Babcock complained about having to play his best players too much in a game he did this:

Rielly 24:37
Muzzin 22:00

Tavares 19:28
Marner 19:13
Matthews 18:19


seriously.

in a league where other teams are playing forwards 25+ mpg and dmen 30+ mpg when they need to, Babcock is actually complaining that he's being forced to play dmen not even 25mpg and forwards not even 20mpg.

it doesn't even make sense.

the man has lost it.

No coach is happy if he has to use a F for 25 mins or a dman for 30+ in a non overtime game. Especially at the 70 game mark of the season when you want guys rested and healthy for the Po's. I think someone like Rielly could handle more minutes- the problem is he is overtaxing his 37 year-old partner.

What Babcock is saying that he doesn't like playing from behind because he has to overuse his top players- not something any coach wants to do this time of year.
 
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Martin Skoula

Registered User
Oct 18, 2017
11,639
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I don't see how both Babcock and Dubas stay longterm. It seems like Babcock needs a yes-man GM like Dorion to get him his Glendennings and Hunwicks to be happy.

If we somehow signed Karlsson this summer, Babcock would make him chip the puck off the glass every shift and give him 19 minutes a night. I don't understand the point of making him the highest paid coach if he's only capable of running one very narrow system that never adapts to opponents or personnel.

Can anyone point to any part of his system that he's actually changed to adapt to our massive roster turnover since 2015? Alternatively any game where he clearly out-coached the other team? Our road record tells me his line matching hurts more than it helps.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
23,349
21,364
Richmond Hill, ON
What depth concerns are there really; we are deeper than most teams. Is it all in Babcock's head?

We are deep on forward and in goal with NHL experience.

We literally have 9 defensemen with ~50 NHL games experience: Rielly Hainsey Gardiner Zaitsev Muzzin Ozhiganov Dermott Marincin Borgman

We also have 4 more guys who are NHL ready in a pinch: Holl Liljegren Sandin Rosen.

IMO this coach is full of ****. What other coaches go on about depth when injuries hit...Cassidy? Gallant? No they ****ing coach. He is blatantly undermining the GM for no reason.

How do you know other coaches do not complain ? I heard Gallant throw his players under the bus for how they played before they met the Leafs. The only time I hear anything from other coaches (not named Torts) is the day they face the Leafs because the Toronto media gives them the forum.
 
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A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,284
17,190
How do you know other coaches do not complain ? I heard Gallant throw his players under the bus for how they played before they met the Leafs. The only time I hear anything from other coaches (not named Torts) is the day they face the Leafs because the Toronto media gives them the forum.
I don't hear them complaining about depth issues, did you?
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
86,912
11,862
Leafs Home Board
Take shots at your GM through the media. Good pro move right there

But that's Babcock, doesn't think he has to be accountable to anyone

I think the media understands and agrees with Babcock, for the most part.

They have been endlessly saying Leafs need a top end RHD, some more size and strength to be able to push back, and criticized Dubas after the TD for not adding more depth on D at least.

Babcocks message is their belief also, so they can relate to his frustration, when the player personnel at his disposals confirms it.

The coach asks for what he feels he needs to win and the GM that is 1/2 his age ignores those requests and does his own thing, as an act of defiance almost.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
23,349
21,364
Richmond Hill, ON
I think the media understands and agrees with Babcock, for the most part.

They have been endlessly saying Leafs need a top end RHD, some more size and strength to be able to push back, and criticized Dubas after the TD for not adding more depth on D at least.

Babcocks message is their belief also, so they can relate to his frustration, when the player personnel at his disposals confirms it.

The coach asks for what he feels he needs to win and the GM that is 1/2 his age ignores those requests and does his own thing, as an act of defiance almost.

Kypreos asked if anyone could have guessed that Petan would be the player Dubas would acquire at the TDL. Sure it was nothing for nothing but Dubas failed to address the needs of the team and here we are. A smurf was the last thing the team needed.
 

CDN24

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
3,459
2,771
Take shots at your GM through the media. Good pro move right there

But that's Babcock, doesn't think he has to be accountable to anyone

He may well be taking shots at his GM, and it may be a good move. He is calling a spade a spade IMO. he tends to call it as he sees. It was reported at the time of signing that his contract gives him some say in personnel decisions. We don't know what he has asked for privately from dubas but we can infer that he didn't get it.

He as the security of a LT contract. If it comes to a pissing contest and Dubas wants to fire him he has the protection of that contract and the ability to find another job right away if he wants one.

He wants the team to be better- is that such a bad thing?
 

MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
7,429
4,576
What depth concerns are there really; we are deeper than most teams. Is it all in Babcock's head?

We are deep on forward and in goal with NHL experience.

We literally have 9 defensemen with ~50 NHL games experience: Rielly Hainsey Gardiner Zaitsev Muzzin Ozhiganov Dermott Marincin Borgman

We also have 4 more guys who are NHL ready in a pinch: Holl Liljegren Sandin Rosen.

IMO this coach is full of ****. What other coaches go on about depth when injuries hit...Cassidy? Gallant? No they ****ing coach. He is blatantly undermining the GM for no reason.
There is a lot of assumptions and speculation in this post.

You're overthinking things man
 

CantLoseWithMatthews

Registered User
Sep 28, 2015
49,556
59,149
How do you know other coaches do not complain ? I heard Gallant throw his players under the bus for how they played before they met the Leafs. The only time I hear anything from other coaches (not named Torts) is the day they face the Leafs because the Toronto media gives them the forum.
if Babcock got the team to the finals, he could say whatever he wants. Nobody would try to make the case that Gallant doesn't get the most out of his players
 
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