Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[Foppa2118]

Soda being that low on the penalties differential is a little surprising.

 

[InjuredChoker]

^^^^^

trade duchene though. he's the problem.

I'm not a fan of the pure offensive types like Subban and Karlsson, but I don't discount their value. However in the playoffs I do think when games are tighter and they don't have as much room to move the puck. The fact that they can't play as well away from it gets exposed in my opinion.

subban has been quite a beast in playoffs though. best or one of the best habs players the past 3 playoffs.

 

[chet1926]

And if you're consistently getting 30+ assists probably 27/28+ are going to be legit passes and not just pucks bouncing off of you. It's really the same argument that you can make for both

Not really because how many of those assists are secondary assists? Secondary assists and +/- are probably two of the worst stats in the league. Really don't tell you much of anything. So you're on the PP, you're on the half boards and casually send the puck up the board to the point man who passes it to the other point man who one times it and scores. You get a secondary assist for basically doing nothing but putting the puck up the board. Perfect example from the other night Duchene on Bigras goal where he treaded a perfect pass cross ice on Bigras stick for an nice one-time goal. Duchene made the play happen, Bigras cashed in, but MacKinnon got a secondary assist for doing very little that affected the play. But the score sheet says he gets a point.

If you get 30 assists, how many of those are primary? Maybe 50-60% So say maybe 15-17, and that might even be high.

 

[chet1926]

Sorry for the ugly formatting. All these are 5v5, this season. Taken from corsica.hockey.

[fieldset="Primary 5v5 Assists"]1 alex.tanguay 10
2 carl.soderberg 10
3 jarome.iginla 9
4 blake.comeau 9
5 mikhail.grigorenko 9
6 matt.duchene 8
7 gabriel.landeskog 6
8 jack.skille 6
9 nathan.mackinnon 5
10 erik.johnson 5
11 nick.holden 5
12 tyson.barrie 4
13 john.mitchell 3
14 andreas.martinsen 3
15 zach.redmond 3
16 andrew.bodnarchuk 2
17 nikita.zadorov 2
18 cody.mcleod 1
19 francois.beauchemin 1
[/fieldset]

[FIELDSET="5v5 Goals"]1 MATT.DUCHENE 19
2 NATHAN.MACKINNON 10
3 GABRIEL.LANDESKOG 9
4 TYSON.BARRIE 7
5 JOHN.MITCHELL 7
6 CODY.MCLEOD 7
7 JAROME.IGINLA 6
8 JACK.SKILLE 6
9 FRANCOIS.BEAUCHEMIN 5
10 ALEX.TANGUAY 4
11 BLAKE.COMEAU 4
12 ERIK.JOHNSON 4
13 CHRIS.WAGNER 4
14 CARL.SODERBERG 3
15 MIKHAIL.GRIGORENKO 3
16 NICK.HOLDEN 3
17 ANDREAS.MARTINSEN 2
18 ZACH.REDMOND 1
[/FIELDSET]

[FIELDSET="5v5 Primary Points (G+Primary Assists)"]1 MATT.DUCHENE 27
2 NATHAN.MACKINNON 15
3 GABRIEL.LANDESKOG 15
4 JAROME.IGINLA 15
5 ALEX.TANGUAY 14
6 BLAKE.COMEAU 13
7 CARL.SODERBERG 13
8 JACK.SKILLE 12
9 MIKHAIL.GRIGORENKO 12
10 TYSON.BARRIE 11
11 JOHN.MITCHELL 10
12 ERIK.JOHNSON 9
13 CODY.MCLEOD 8
14 NICK.HOLDEN 8
15 FRANCOIS.BEAUCHEMIN 6
16 ANDREAS.MARTINSEN 5
17 CHRIS.WAGNER 4
18 ZACH.REDMOND 4
19 ANDREW.BODNARCHUK 2
20 NIKITA.ZADOROV 2
[/FIELDSET]

[FIELDSET="Penalty Differential (Penalties Drawn - Penalties Taken)"] Player PENDIFF
1 NATHAN.MACKINNON 33
2 MATT.DUCHENE 24
3 GABRIEL.LANDESKOG 23
4 TYSON.BARRIE 12
5 JAROME.IGINLA 10
6 ALEX.TANGUAY 8
7 ERIK.JOHNSON 3
8 FRANCOIS.BEAUCHEMIN 3
9 MIKKO.RANTANEN 3
10 BEN.STREET -1
11 BRANDON.GORMLEY -1
12 DENNIS.EVERBERG -1
13 NICK.HOLDEN -1
14 ANDREW.BODNARCHUK -2
15 NATE.GUENIN -2
16 NIKITA.ZADOROV -2
17 BRAD.STUART -3
18 CHRIS.BIGRAS -5
19 CHRIS.WAGNER -5
20 JOHN.MITCHELL -5
21 MIKHAIL.GRIGORENKO -6
22 ZACH.REDMOND -6
23 ANDREAS.MARTINSEN -7
24 JACK.SKILLE -11
25 CARL.SODERBERG -14
26 BLAKE.COMEAU -15
27 CODY.MCLEOD -20
[/FIELDSET]

Thanks for digging this up kinda nice to see that I'm not crazy and Duchene is by far and away our most productive player.

 

[cgf]

Makes sense though. He's the one who's actually expected to lead us in scoring and is already in his prime. Landy's right where he should be and once MacK gets a little more experience he'll be with Duchene, if not above him.

...We could really use Rads coming over and teaming up with Dutchy to be our Seguin-Benn...

 

[ArWKo]

Thanks for digging this up kinda nice to see that I'm not crazy and Duchene is by far and away our most productive player.

I was definitely shocked how much higher his 5v5 production is over anyone else on the team. Kind of crazy.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Thanks for digging this up kinda nice to see that I'm not crazy and Duchene is by far and away our most productive player.

I'm wondering how many of those points came when he was paired up with MacK. Duchy has been good with Grigs and Iggy, but I think he was far and away more dynamic on the wing with MacK. They played great together.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Makes sense though. He's the one who's actually expected to lead us in scoring and is already in his prime. Landy's right where he should be and once MacK gets a little more experience he'll be with Duchene, if not above him.

...We could really use Rads coming over and teaming up with Dutchy to be our Seguin-Benn...

landeskog definitely should be higher.

 

[cgf]

I still want to see a line where Matt is on Soderberg's wing at some point. They've shown sweet chemistry on the PP and should be amazing together 5on5.

 

[JoemAvs]

We don't have to worry about this with this core of players. They are just like Edmonton, stuck in a losing culture and mentality. We find ways to lose instead of finding ways to win.

I'm not here to defend Roy or his system, or the lack of one. One thing is for sure and has been a constant throughout Roy and Sacco. And that is the core players, not getting it done.

I'm to the point with our core assembled as is, that I don't even think Mike Babcock or Barry Trotz comes in here and changes things drastically for us.

Edmonton is a perfect example of what is going on with our core guys. Edmonton brings in a fairly decent coach who has his systems and they have decent success at the NHL level. Edmonton also brings in the next Crosby. And where are they? Just as crappy as always. Because their core players are just so accustom to losing that it doesn't matter what system they run, they find ways to lose.

It's time to start blaming the players, we've blamed it on the coaching for far too long. Duchene has been with us for 7 years, Landy 5 years, EJ is 27 years old, Varly is 27 years old. These guys have all been around the organization for a long time. We can't just keep saying that they are young and will get bettter. Eventually they just have to get results. A playoff appearance every four years isn't getting it done.

Sorry but no.
Why would we start blaming the players?

Look at their ages and what they have to work with.

Trading them is just foolish. Haven't we learned that you never win those kind of trades? Duchene is not gonna fetch us a bonafide #1. Aside from MacKinnon noone does.

Duchene is the longest tenured "core" player. This is only his 7th season. The only other pieces left from those dark times are McLeod and Barrie. Aside from that only EJ can be traced back to assets we had at that times.
Almost everyone else was brought in during those 7 years.

Since then we have retooled and seen very important players get traded/ walk.

In those 7 years we have had 2 coaches who had proven nothing on the NHL level.

This roster really is not all that good. We have 0 depth because our management group never really believed in rebuilding.

We made the playoffs twice during a "rebuild" and never really sold. In fact we bought a couple of times.

We certainly are not a well coached team. There are many other teams who are not as talented but who have a working system that helps them overachieve.
The Avs do not have anything to fall back on if they are not 100 % on their game.



I think it is ridiculous. To me this whole organisation (including fans and management) have huge issues when it comes to self-evaluation.
Maybe I even agree with TV to some degree that we are stuck in the past and think of ourselves as that mighty franchise we were 15 years ago.

This is a very young team (atleast if you look at the core) which is not very well coached or managed and has not close to enough depth to make some real noise because they always thought that they should be ( or are ) better than they really were and never bothered to admit that they were simply not a good organisation/team.

If they stupidly decide to blow it up in the offseason than odds are that the next 10 years won't be any better because the next management would need years to fix the mess that Roy/Sakic would leave behind (aka start another proper rebuild).

 

[cgf]

landeskog definitely should be higher.

In his totals, or in his ranking within the team? Agreed on the former, but not the later. He shouldn't be ahead of Dutchy or MacK, even 5on5.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I'm wondering how many of those points came when he was paired up with MacK. Duchy has been good with Grigs and Iggy, but I think he was far and away more dynamic on the wing with MacK. They played great together.

his production has been fairly similar with and without mack.

 

[InjuredChoker]

In his totals, or in his ranking within the team? Agreed on the former, but not the later. He shouldn't be ahead of Dutchy or MacK, even 5on5.

more on totals. he should't be ahead one point and tied with the corpses of tangs and iggy, respectively.

ftr, i think he would be better if he weren't injured and it would be insanity to trade landeskog.

 

[ArWKo]

Also looking, over the past 3 season (so the last two plus all of this one so far), Dutchy is 8th in the league in 5v5 Primary Points 6th in total points.

[FIELDSET="2013-2016 5v5 Primary Points"]1 TYLER.SEGUIN 118
2 COREY.PERRY 106
3 SIDNEY.CROSBY 106
4 JAMIE.BENN 102
5 JOHN.TAVARES 101
6 PATRICK.KANE 101
7 RYAN.GETZLAF 97
8 MATT.DUCHENE 94
9 MATS.ZUCCARELLO 92
10 BLAKE.WHEELER 91
[/FIELDSET]

[FIELDSET="2013-2016 5v5 Total Points"]1 JAMIE.BENN 143
2 SIDNEY.CROSBY 137
3 TYLER.SEGUIN 134
4 RYAN.GETZLAF 130
5 COREY.PERRY 122
6 MATT.DUCHENE 121
7 PATRICK.KANE 120
8 TAYLOR.HALL 120
9 JOHN.TAVARES 115
10 VLADIMIR.TARASENKO 114
[/FIELDSET]

 

[cgf]

more on totals. he should't be ahead one point and tied with the corpses of tangs and iggy, respectively.

ftr, i think he would be better if he weren't injured and it would be insanity to trade landeskog.

Agreed on all accounts.

Hopefully he can continue to learn how to keep himself healthy, because the last thing we need is to be having the same conversations that are springing up about EJ, to start springing up about Landy in a year or two.

 

[chet1926]

Sorry but no.
Why would we start blaming the players?

Look at their ages and what they have to work with.

Trading them is just foolish. Haven't we learned that you never win those kind of trades? Duchene is not gonna fetch us a bonafide #1. Aside from MacKinnon noone does.

Duchene is the longest tenured "core" player. This is only his 7th season. The only other pieces left from those dark times are McLeod and Barrie. Aside from that only EJ can be traced back to assets we had at that times.
Almost everyone else was brought in during those 7 years.

Since then we have retooled and seen very important players get traded/ walk.

In those 7 years we have had 2 coaches who have proven nothing on the NHL level.

This roster really is not all that good. We have 0 depth because our management group never really believed in rebuilding.

We made the playoffs twice during a "rebuild" and never really sold. In fact we bought a couple of times.

We certainly are not a well coached team. There are many other teams who are not as talented but who have a working system that helps them overachieve.
The Avs do not have anything to fall back on if they are not 100 % on their game.



I think it is ridiculous. To me this whole organisation (including fans and management) have huge issues when it comes to self-evaluation.
Maybe I even agree with TV to some degree that we are stuck in the past and think of ourselves as that mighty franchise we were 15 years ago.

This is a very young team (atleast if you look at the core) who is not very well coached or managed and has not close to enough depth to make some real noise because they always though that they should be or are better than they really are and never bothered to admit that they were simply not a good organisation/team.

If they stupidly decide to blow it up in the offseason than odds are that the next 10 years won't be any better because the next management would need years to fix the mess that Roy/Sakic would leave behind (aka start another proper rebuild).

All I can say is this the roster as it is currently constructed is more than talented enough to make the playoffs this year. We don't make it this year, it's on the players. The coaching is tolerable, the execution late in games and in crunch time is not tolerable at the moment. As bad as we played in the first period the other night we walked into the 3rd period tied with a chance to win due to good coaching and probably a good old fashioned yell session. It's not Roy's fault that none of our big name players could come up with one lousy play to put us in front in the 3rd period.

Do you guys really think that Bob Hartley was that great of a coach? He looked really good while he was here, and yes he had loads of talent. But he also got lots of clutch performances in tie games or close games from players like Sakic getting that tie breaking goal in the 3rd period. You're players have to execute for you in the clutch and Roy is not getting much help in that regard.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Thanks for doing that, I don't get where they come up with the penalty differential. Grigo has 4 PIM this year, how is he a -6?

That's kinda scary Tangs was our highest primary assist producer even this year. I do agree Landy should be higher, he is off of where he's been. He shouldn't be producing more than Mack and Duchene but he's been a good 5v5 producer in the past, he is lagging this year. I knew Grigo had a lot of primary assists, he definitely earns his points.

 

[Freudian]

Landeskog's goals this year are too few but he had no power behind his shot for half the year. It's only recently he is able to shoot the puck with any velocity.

Many of his goals are tap ins this year.

I don't think anyone should ever be untouchable but starting to ship out young core players when the team struggles to play fundamentally sound hockey seems to me to start at the wrong end. Give the players a system that can compete and we'll see who sinks, who floats and who swims.

Eventually one or two of them are probably gone. Three years ago we figured O'Reilly and Stastny would probably still be here. Things happen. But no reason to rush into bad trades because the team struggles with team stuff.

 

[ArWKo]

Thanks for doing that, I don't get where they come up with the penalty differential. Grigo has 4 PIM this year, how is he a -6?

That's kinda scary Tangs was our highest primary assist producer even this year. I do agree Landy should be higher, he is off of where he's been. I knew Grigo had a lot of primary assists, he definitely earns his points.

Yeah I was confused about the penalty differential as well. Looking at it now something is definitely not right about that.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Thanks for doing that, I don't get where they come up with the penalty differential. Grigo has 4 PIM this year, how is he a -6?

he's drawn 2 and taken 2. should be 0.

 

[ArWKo]

I think what happened here was the spreadsheet I was using had penalty stats for a player when they were on the ice, instead of that they actually took or drew. This should have the correct individual differentials

[FIELDSET="Correct 5v5 Penalty Differentials"]1 CARL.SODERBERG 9
2 NATHAN.MACKINNON 8
3 MATT.DUCHENE 4
4 TYSON.BARRIE 3
5 DENNIS.EVERBERG 2
6 BRAD.STUART 0
7 CHRIS.WAGNER 0
8 JACK.SKILLE 0
9 MIKKO.RANTANEN 0
10 NATE.GUENIN 0
11 ANDREW.BODNARCHUK -1
12 BEN.STREET -1
13 NIKITA.ZADOROV -1
14 ALEX.TANGUAY -2
15 ERIK.JOHNSON -2
16 JAROME.IGINLA -2
17 MIKHAIL.GRIGORENKO -2
18 ZACH.REDMOND -2
19 ANDREAS.MARTINSEN -3
20 BRANDON.GORMLEY -3
21 CHRIS.BIGRAS -4
22 BLAKE.COMEAU -6
23 JOHN.MITCHELL -6
24 FRANCOIS.BEAUCHEMIN -7
25 GABRIEL.LANDESKOG -7
26 CODY.MCLEOD -8
27 NICK.HOLDEN -8
[/FIELDSET]

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's interesting Duchene does so well 5v5, if he could ever get his PP numbers up he probably would be an elite scorer in this league.

 

[cgf]

Tanguay seems too high on the updated PK differential list. Though it had been a while since his last batch of dumb penalties, -2 still seems way too high a number.

 

[InjuredChoker]

yup, duchene has 18 pp points this season and last season combined.

18 forwards have more than that just this season.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I'm starting to wonder if it might be the system that needs changing rather than the players. Seems like we have a pretty solid group on paper. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see that any time soon.

Defense is mainly on the DMen.

Transition is a poor system.

Offense is on the players, mainly forwards (inconsistent and undermanned talent-wise). Not like it's bad though (just outside top10). Don't need change, just a little more help.

Possession seems like a system issue. Our defensive scheme doesn't seem to put us in a good position to win battles and the passive nature allows for easy cycling. We also seem to play prevent quite early, literally just getting the puck out of the zone and back to the other team. And our poor transition game hurts possession as well.