Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[Iceberg]

Trading anyone of them would be a catastrophe... you of all people should know that with the ROR thing.

Fact is the core doesn't have much to work with, keep them and fix everything else around them or you'll set this "team" back 5 years.

A Catastrophe? It depends on the return, but if we somewhat "survived" trading ROR, our #1 C, can't see how trading Duchene would be much different.

The difference is that this time we would need to do a "hockey trade", and not one where we take picks and prospects back.

 

[Foppa2118]

Prove me wrong. Name the last time Landy went to the net hard in the 3rd period of a tied game and scored an ugly goal.

Sorry you all are in love with Landy, but I'm going to call it how I see it. The guy hasn't played a hard nose game since his rookie season. Remember his rookie year and Viking mode as we liked to call it. Well Viking mode has failed to exist for a good 4 years now. He'd rather play a pretty boy finesse game with the occasional power forward move.

15 lousy goals playing top line and top PP minutes basically all season is absolutely pathetic for guy of his size and strength.

You must not have watched a game since his rookie season. I don't think he's played a finesse game his entire career. He's played a hard nosed game pretty much every night.

If there were some sort of metric for how many games or shifts a players battled hard in, or how much energy he's expelled, or how much punishment taken, he'd lead the whole team in each category by an astronomical amount.

 

[the_fan]

Maybe something like

EJ, Duchene, Rantanen for Hedman and Drouin

 

[ArWKo]

Just the whole thought of this makes me angry not because the core shouldn't be questioned and I understand not everyone is going to be around forever but is this team mediocre because of the core or the team around them? Could the core perform better, yes but they could also be put in a better position to succeed as well.

This org refused to accept a full rebuild, they got in a few core pieces and still refuse to accept what this team is. I know they can't wait forever and say better luck next year but this is what you get when you keep kicking the can down the road, this no man's land of a team.

You're definitely correct that the lack of sustained success for this team is not entirely on the core players - however ultimately you might need to move one of those players in order to bring in a piece you need to be a more complete team if you want to be able to compete while all the core guys are in their prime.

I mean, I know they're mostly pretty young with EJ and Varly at 27 being the oldest "core" guys, but if we're waiting for guys like Meloche to have graduated and adjusted + Bigras and Zadorov finally getting their time and adjusting as well, you're looking at 4+ years down the line, EJ and Varly are 31, Duchene is 29, Landy is 27 - not necessarily old men by any means, but on the back end of the new "prime" in the NHL. Not to mentionthe guys who will have been up for new contracts by that time, whether they're back or not, how many of them we can fit in the salary structure, etc.

Unfortunately it seems the "window" in the NHL now more than every is shorter and shorter between the prime age of players going down to it being tougher to fit all your contracts in under the cap - you've only got X number of years to get it done with a particular core, so if you're in a position that the Avs are in where you've got a pretty glaring hole in one part of the team (defense) but you offensive core is pretty killer, you maybe need to move one of them to bring in the piece to address your biggest weakness so the rest of the core can more effectively compete inside their window.

Again it isn't any one of these guys faults that this isn't where it should/we want it to be, but when it gets to crunch time and you've got to think about moving one of them, you start to rationalize it (and not unfairly so) by nit-picking and criticizing because obviously if you have to move a guy, you hope it's the one whose loss has the least impact on the team's effectiveness.

 

[5280]

Maybe something like

EJ, Duchene, Rantanen for Hedman and Drouin

Barf...wouldn't throw Rants in there.

 

[CobraAcesS]

You're definitely correct that the lack of sustained success for this team is not entirely on the core players - however ultimately you might need to move one of those players in order to bring in a piece you need to be a more complete team if you want to be able to compete while all the core guys are in their prime.

I mean, I know they're mostly pretty young with EJ and Varly at 27 being the oldest "core" guys, but if we're waiting for guys like Meloche to have graduated and adjusted + Bigras and Zadorov finally getting their time and adjusting as well, you're looking at 4+ years down the line, EJ and Varly are 31, Duchene is 29, Landy is 27 - not necessarily old men by any means, but on the back end of the new "prime" in the NHL. Not to mentionthe guys who will have been up for new contracts by that time, whether they're back or not, how many of them we can fit in the salary structure, etc.

Unfortunately it seems the "window" in the NHL now more than every is shorter and shorter between the prime age of players going down to it being tougher to fit all your contracts in under the cap - you've only got X number of years to get it done with a particular core, so if you're in a position that the Avs are in where you've got a pretty glaring hole in one part of the team (defense) but you offensive core is pretty killer, you maybe need to move one of them to bring in the piece to address your biggest weakness so the rest of the core can more effectively compete inside their window.

Again it isn't any one of these guys faults that this isn't where it should/we want it to be, but when it gets to crunch time and you've got to think about moving one of them, you start to rationalize it (and not unfairly so) by nit-picking and criticizing because obviously if you have to move a guy, you hope it's the one whose loss has the least impact on the team's effectiveness.

Yep nice post, so lets hope sanity is maintained and if they decide they need to make a change, they keep it limited to a singular painful move they deem necessary.

I personally have more faith than some, that if they push Bigras up the depth chart a little more quickly they'll get what they want without making that move though.

 

[Iceberg]

This would be my wet dream for next season:

Duchene + Barrie for Subban + Galchenyuk

Landeskog - MacKinnon - Boedker
Grigorenko - Galchenyuk - Iginla
Rantanen - Soderberg - Comeau
McLeod - Mitchell - Skille
Martinsen

Bigras - Subban
Beauchemin - Johnson
Zadorov - Holden
Gelinas
Stuart (LTIR)

Varlamov
Pickard

 

[CobraAcesS]

This would be my wet dream for next season:

Duchene + Barrie for Subban + Galchenyuk

Landeskog - MacKinnon - Boedker
Grigorenko - Galchenyuk - Iginla
Rantanen - Soderberg - Comeau
McLeod - Mitchell - Skille
Martinsen

Bigras - Subban
Beauchemin - Johnson
Zadorov - Holden
Gelinas
Stuart (LTIR)

Varlamov
Pickard

That's not bad if your looking at MTL, it's difficult to imagine anything else if you're going after Subban.

I'm not a huge fan of Subban though, but that's me in the minority. I don't see Subban as enough of an upgrade on Barrie for the difference between Gally and Duchene, again minority opinion probably.

 

[JoemAvs]

Trading Duchene, Landeskog, EJ or probably even Varly/Tyson before trying another coach first will be a huge mistake.

Lets see if Joe goes down that road. If he does, he might just seal his own fate as well.

 

[InjuredChoker]

The only move I can get behind is one like NSH & CBJ made, if they felt it was needed. Anything else or more would be insanely stupid.

i don't think it makes sense to trade duchene for a dman, if that's what you meant. we could use more of a shutdown center instead of duchene but there aren't many of those and they aren't getting traded.

i'd only trade duchene for a upgrade at forward. which most likely isn't happening.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Unfortunately it seems the "window" in the NHL now more than every is shorter and shorter between the prime age of players going down to it being tougher to fit all your contracts in under the cap - you've only got X number of years to get it done with a particular core, so if you're in a position that the Avs are in where you've got a pretty glaring hole in one part of the team (defense) but you offensive core is pretty killer, you maybe need to move one of them to bring in the piece to address your biggest weakness so the rest of the core can more effectively compete inside their window.

It doesn't matter that they want their window to be now, they aren't ready. It won't be until Rants, Bigras, Zadorov are ready to be key contributors. There's nothing they can do realistically to speed it up, they can't buy being ready to take the next step. Moving one core piece for another doesn't progress it any faster.

At the time making the EJ trade was a step back, wasn't it? Then they lose Stastny, that's another step back. O'Reilly is another one. They keep trading out players every year too and it takes time to adjust leading to some part of their slow starts. It's starting to feel like they aren't building toward anything. They just expect a handful of decent players is enough. Well about 25 teams in the league COULD make the playoffs, what are they going to do to make sure this team is constantly ahead of the pack? It's going to take a lot more than 6 good players or 6 different good players.

 

[Iceberg]

That's not bad if your looking at MTL, it's difficult to imagine anything else if you're going after Subban.

I'm not a huge fan of Subban though, but that's me in the minority. I don't see Subban as enough of an upgrade on Barrie for the difference between Gally and Duchene, again minority opinion probably.

I, on the other hand, like Subban a lot and i also think he has the kind of personality this team needs right now.

 

[chet1926]

You must not have watched a game since his rookie season. I don't think he's played a finesse game his entire career. He's played a hard nosed game pretty much every night.

If there were some sort of metric for how many games or shifts a players battled hard in, or how much energy he's expelled, or how much punishment taken, he'd lead the whole team in each category by an astronomical amount.

Not sure what games you've been watching this year, but Landy has been a perimeter player most of the year, sans a few plays here and there. He seems very content right now firing wristers from the outside, than parking it in front and mucking it up. Injury or not this is not what he needs to be doing.

 

[shadow1]

Trading Duchene, Landeskog, EJ or probably even Varly/Tyson before trying another coach first will be a huge mistake.

Lets see if Joe goes down that road. If he does, he might just seal his own fate as well.

Plus we're only one game removed from Alex Tanguay unjustifiably playing a big role, and there are still issues on defense - which can be addressed internally and via free agency.

Blowing the team up would be a huge mistake.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I, on the other hand, like Subban a lot and i also think he has the kind of personality this team needs right now.

I know, and I could live with that trade. There is enough differing opinion out there from mine about Subban for me to know there is just something I'm not personally seeing when I get to watch him.

I've got a very different opinion of him personally, every time I've watched him hes trying to do it all himself when he has the puck, and when he does not he completely disappears and floats all over the ice.

I'm not a fan of the pure offensive types like Subban and Karlsson, but I don't discount their value. However in the playoffs I do think when games are tighter and they don't have as much room to move the puck. The fact that they can't play as well away from it gets exposed in my opinion.

I like guys like OEL, Kieth, Doughty, Hedman, Weber, and Suter who are much more balanced in the way they play the position. These guys are putting up top end offensive numbers, but also play very solid defense as well.

 

[chet1926]

Chet, I'd rather Landeskog not turn into Dustin Brown or Mike Richards. If he plays the way you want him to play every single night, that's exactly what's going to happen to him sooner rather than later. That style of play is not sustainable. I'm fine with how Landeskog has played. He's tied for 3rd on the team in scoring while being the most defensively responsible forward and also killing penalties. He's Mr. Do-It-All for this team since ROR left. I have no issues with him whatsoever.

Well the two guys you mentioned also have a thing called a Stanley Cup mainly because they were willing do the dirty work for their team. And not all players who drive the net have short careers. See Holmstrom or Bertuzzi or Smyth, or many others. You can have a very long productive career as a power forward who parks it in front of the net.

Landy has had a solid defensive year, not concerned about that aspect of his game. I'm concerned about his 15 goals. Like I've mentioned many times with his size, strength and skill set there is no reason he shouldn't hit 25-30+ goals a year. But for some reason this year in particular he has shown little desire to get dirty goals.

 

[cgf]

I can't wait for the Varlamov, Barrie, Dutchene, and Landeskog <---> Price, Subban, Galchenyuk and MaxPac trade.

 

[ArWKo]

It doesn't matter that they want their window to be now, they aren't ready. It won't be until Rants, Bigras, Zadorov are ready to be key contributors. There's nothing they can do realistically to speed it up, they can't buy being ready to take the next step. Moving one core piece for another doesn't progress it any faster.

At the time making the EJ trade was a step back, wasn't it? Then they lose Stastny, that's another step back. O'Reilly is another one. They keep trading out players every year too and it takes time to adjust leading to some part of their slow starts. It's starting to feel like they aren't building toward anything. They just expect a handful of decent players is enough. Well about 25 teams in the league COULD make the playoffs, what are they going to do to make sure this team is constantly ahead of the pack? It's going to take a lot more than 6 good players or 6 different good players.

I don't see a scenario for this team where by the time Rantanen, Bigras, and Zadorov are all ready to be big contributors that this current core is still all in place if we're calling the "core" as: Duchene, EJ, Varly, Barrie, Landeskog, and MacKinnon.

At the very least I think Varly is gone by then and if EJ isn't gone as well he'll be a lot more ineffective than he is now. I guess I'm of the opinion that this team is closer to competing seriously than many others think it is, and I understand that a lot of the recent moves this team has made have felt like "1 step forward, 2 steps back" kind of moves, but I don't think moving a core piece now for a legitimate #1 defenseman would be a bad move now, this stabilizes the back end and then you ideally in 1-2 years still have a core in its prime, EDIT: 1 dman on an ELC, one who is still RFA and will not likely command a huge price tag - who can fill top 4 rolls, and 2 more prime defenseman to anchor things back there.

Ultimately I think it's also easier to plug in pieces at the forward position whether it be younger guys on ELCs like Compher or Greer or some player you can find in FA, clearly easier than trying to find pieces like that for the defense.

At the end of the day it IS about striking a balance because if we're waiting too long for the complimentary pieces we draft or have now to be ready, by the time they are it could be too late for this core to seriously compete. On the other hand, you also can't mortgage the future entirely or keep taking these "1 step forward, 2 step back" type of moves to try to balance on a wire between the present and the future and never actually taking the plunge to compete when you've got as good of a chance as you have.

 

[dahrougem2]

Well the two guys you mentioned also have a thing called a Stanley Cup mainly because they were willing do the dirty work for their team. And not all players who drive the net have short careers. See Holmstrom or Bertuzzi or Smyth, or many others. You can have a very long productive career as a power forward who parks it in front of the net.

Landy has had a solid defensive year, not concerned about that aspect of his game. I'm concerned about his 15 goals. Like I've mentioned many times with his size, strength and skill set there is no reason he shouldn't hit 25-30+ goals a year. But for some reason this year in particular he has shown little desire to get dirty goals.

Those two guys having a stanley cup is irrelevant. He's still tied for 3rd on the team in points. Look at the players he's within +/- 2 points of:

Tyler Toffoli, Max Pacioretty, Jonathan Toews, Sean Monahan, Justin Williams, Leon Draisaitl, Jussi Jokinen, Wayne Simmonds, Mikko Koivu, Ryan Spooner, Tyson Barrie, Ryan Johansen, Mike Ribeiro, Brayden Schenn, Max Domi, Bryan Little, Jeff Carter, Carl Soderberg, Ryan Suter, Scott Hartnell, Jack Eichel, Lee Stempniak, Brent Seabrook, and Henrik Zetterberg.

There are a lot of great names in that list. Unless you're saying you want him to have even more goals at this point in time and, thus, more points? Are you expecting him to be leading this team in points right now too?

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Prove me wrong. Name the last time Landy went to the net hard in the 3rd period of a tied game and scored an ugly goal.

Sorry you all are in love with Landy, but I'm going to call it how I see it. The guy hasn't played a hard nose game since his rookie season. Remember his rookie year and Viking mode as we liked to call it. Well Viking mode has failed to exist for a good 4 years now. He'd rather play a pretty boy finesse game with the occasional power forward move.

15 lousy goals playing top line and top PP minutes basically all season is absolutely pathetic for guy of his size and strength.

If he goes Viking Mode all the time, then be prepared for a short career, as already mentioned. And don't be absurd about this hard nosed game crap. He's been a monster on the forecheck and our best forward since the All Star Break. Just last game he threw another big hit behind the Minnesota net. 15 lousy, pitiful, terrible goals, still good for 4th on the team, and 3rd on the team in scoring, all while playing difficult minutes and being our best defensive forward.

Good luck making the team better now and in the future by trading him.

Do people ever wonder why this team struggles to score? Grigorenko, no goals in 10 games. Soderberg, no goals in 11 games. Mitchell, 1 goal in 30 games. Comeau, 3 goals in 27 games. Skille, 1 goal in 25 games. Wow, it's almost like this team is super easy to defend against because they only have 3 forwards that you can really count on to do anything consistently.

 

[ArWKo]

If he goes Viking Mode all the time, then be prepared for a short career, as already mentioned. And don't be absurd about this hard nosed game crap. He's been a monster on the forecheck and our best forward since the All Star Break. Just last game he threw another big hit behind the Minnesota net. 15 lousy, pitiful, terrible goals, still good for 4th on the team, and 3rd on the team in scoring, all while playing difficult minutes and being our best defensive forward.

Good luck making the team better now and in the future by trading him.

 

[chet1926]

Those two guys having a stanley cup is irrelevant. He's still tied for 3rd on the team in points. Look at the players he's within +/- 2 points of:

Tyler Toffoli, Max Pacioretty, Jonathan Toews, Sean Monahan, Justin Williams, Leon Draisaitl, Jussi Jokinen, Wayne Simmonds, Mikko Koivu, Ryan Spooner, Tyson Barrie, Ryan Johansen, Mike Ribeiro, Brayden Schenn, Max Domi, Bryan Little, Jeff Carter, Carl Soderberg, Ryan Suter, Scott Hartnell, Jack Eichel, Lee Stempniak, Brent Seabrook, and Henrik Zetterberg.

There are a lot of great names in that list. Unless you're saying you want him to have even more goals at this point in time and, thus, more points? Are you expecting him to be leading this team in points right now too?

Not concerned about points, concerned about goals, big difference. I'd rather his stat line read 23G-20A for 43 pts. instead of 15G 28A. We need a goal scoring power forward not another setup man.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Not concerned about points, concerned about goals, big difference. I'd rather his stat line read 23G-20A for 43 pts. instead of 15G 28A. We need a goal scoring power forward not another setup man.

Assists don't matter, it's not like they help that black rubber thing go in the net.

 

[dahrougem2]

Not concerned about points, concerned about goals, big difference. I'd rather his stat line read 23G-20A for 43 pts. instead of 15G 28A. We need a goal scoring power forward not another setup man.

What on earth difference does it make if Landeskog scores the goal or if someone else scores the goal?

 

[chet1926]

If he goes Viking Mode all the time, then be prepared for a short career, as already mentioned. And don't be absurd about this hard nosed game crap. He's been a monster on the forecheck and our best forward since the All Star Break. Just last game he threw another big hit behind the Minnesota net. 15 lousy, pitiful, terrible goals, still good for 4th on the team, and 3rd on the team in scoring, all while playing difficult minutes and being our best defensive forward.

Good luck making the team better now and in the future by trading him.

Do people ever wonder why this team struggles to score? Grigorenko, no goals in 10 games. Soderberg, no goals in 11 games. Mitchell, 1 goal in 30 games. Comeau, 3 goals in 27 games. Skille, 1 goal in 25 games. Wow, it's almost like this team is super easy to defend against because they only have 3 forwards that you can really count on to do anything consistently.

Do you honestly think 15G, playing on the top line and top PP is a good thing? Yeah he is 4th on the team in goals but just shows you how pitiful we are at scoring as a whole. I expect more from all the big guys except for maybe Duchene who will probably hit 30+ this year.

I agree with your 2nd statement that we are in desperate need of secondary scoring. It's a big issue and I've brought it up multiple times in the past. It's pathetic that we can't get any secondary scoring. But to drag it out Landeskog 1G in his last 12 games, Duchene 3G in his last 12 games, MacKinnon 2G in his last 12 games. I mean really the only person that has had reasonable goal scoring stats in the past 12 games is Iginla with 6G in his last 12. So it's not like the top guys are doing anything worth a damn either.

This whole team star players and role players are pretty much ******** the bed right now. And unfortunately the blame has to fall on the stars. I'm not out here saying that Landy is the only reason we are sucking. All I'm saying is he is part of the problem as well and doesn't deserve to be left out of the MacK, Duchene, Varly bashing that goes around these parts consistently.