Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[tucker3434]

I'm starting to wonder if it might be the system that needs changing rather than the players. Seems like we have a pretty solid group on paper. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see that any time soon.

 

[ABasin]

Do people ever wonder why this team struggles to score? Grigorenko, no goals in 10 games. Soderberg, no goals in 11 games. Mitchell, 1 goal in 30 games. Comeau, 3 goals in 27 games. Skille, 1 goal in 25 games. Wow, it's almost like this team is super easy to defend against because they only have 3 forwards that you can really count on to do anything consistently.

Well, let's take a quick look at said three forwards: MacKinnon has 2 goals in his last 13 games, Duchene has 4 goals in his last 21 games, Landeskog has 1 goal in his last 12 games. In the last dozen games, those three players have 6 goals total. How incredibly does Varlamov have to play if those numbers continue?

We have a tendency to call out the lower line guys who slump, but I keep coming back to the production of the top guys being far more important. TV has been talking about it all season. The Avs upping the production of MacKinnon/Duchene/Landeskog will mean more than adding whatever overpriced wing they happen to get at a trade deadline or UFA.

 

[chet1926]

Assists don't matter, it's not like they help that black rubber thing go in the net.

Assists are misleading stat, as the NHL is very generous with their assist policy. It could bounce off your butt and happen to land perfectly on your teammates stick who scores and you'd get an assist.

Not saying that's what happens with Landeskog but I'd be willing to bet he has more than a few secondary assists where he really didn't do much to get them. He just happened to be the 3rd to last guy to touch the puck. Lots of players stats are inflated by things like this.

I really wish the NHL would do away with the secondary assist. Such a meaningless stat. The NBA doesn't award a guy who passed the ball to a guy, who passed the ball to the guy, who scored, an assist. Mainly he didn't do anything he just happened to pass the ball to guy who made nice play and got the ball to someone who could score.

Goals on the other hand are directly tied to you. No matter how well the play was set up you still had to put the puck in the net. I value the goal stat for forwards much more than I value the assist stat as it's a stat you control.

 

[cgf]

I'm starting to wonder if it might be the system that needs changing rather than the players. Seems like we have a pretty solid group on paper. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see that any time soon.

If we don't make it into the post season this year and don't take a huge step next year I think Roy steps down.

Assists are misleading stat, as the NHL is very generous with their assist policy. It could bounce off your butt and happen to land perfectly on your teammates stick who scores and you'd get an assist.

That's true of goals as well.

 

[chet1926]

Well, let's take a quick look at said three forwards: MacKinnon has 2 goals in his last 13 games, Duchene has 4 goals in his last 21 games, Landeskog has 1 goal in his last 12 games. In the last dozen games, those three players have 6 goals total. How incredibly does Varlamov have to play if those numbers continue?

We have a tendency to call out the lower line guys who slump, but I keep coming back to the production of the top guys being far more important. TV has been talking about it all season. The Avs upping the production of MacKinnon/Duchene/Landeskog will mean more than adding whatever overpriced wing they happen to get at a trade deadline or UFA.

Bingo you nailed it. Big guys aren't producing. Period. All the big guys need to step up. MacK is given a longer leash as he is still a kid, and hasn't been in the league awhile. But players like Duchene and Landeskog, who have both been with the team for awhile need to step up or ship out. The fact is they have to start producing goals when we need them. If they can't do that, it's time to start looking for players that can.

 

[ArWKo]

Do you honestly think 15G, playing on the top line and top PP is a good thing? Yeah he is 4th on the team in goals but just shows you how pitiful we are at scoring as a whole. I expect more from all the big guys except for maybe Duchene who will probably hit 30+ this year.

Do you know how many teams in this league currently have more than 2 20 goal scorers?

It's five. Five teams: Boston, Chicago, Columbus, Dallas, and Ottawa.

A majority have 1 or 2 and there's a good number that have none. Iggy currently has 19 which puts us very close to having 3. The guys who are supposed to score goals on this team are scoring goals and aside from some of the teams with elite goal scorers, they're doing it at the pace you would expect a team's top goal scorers to score.

Landy's goals number are fine for the role he plays on this team and he well could hit 20 by season's end. The problem on this team when it comes to scoring is depth - not Landeskog.

 

[agentblack]

Im really losing track of the arguing in this thread. lol. So there are people saying our core isnt good enough and should be traded and the others that are saying thats ridic

Is that the jist of it?

 

[cgf]

Im really losing track of the arguing in this thread. lol. So there are people saying our core isnt good enough and should be traded and the others that are saying thats ridic

Is that the jist of it?

Don't forget the goalie controversy.

 

[chet1926]

If we don't make it into the post season this year and don't take a huge step next year I think Roy steps down.



That's true of goals as well.

This is very true but I'd like to think if you're consistently scoring 20+ goals probably 18+ are going to be legit shots, not off the ass and in shot.

I don't think Roy steps down, I think he quits. Like I said earlier he hates to lose. And right now his players seem perfectly content with losing. There is only so much a coach can do before it falls on the players. I think Roy will get fed up with our players attitude, and will show himself out because he won't want to be associated with a losing culture. Roy is a pretty egotistical dude, could totally see thsi happening.

 

[CB Joe]

I'm starting to wonder if it might be the system that needs changing rather than the players. Seems like we have a pretty solid group on paper. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see that any time soon.

The system Roy is using will never have long term success. Right now the Avs are just wasting time. In my mind there is two option: change the coach or blow up the core.

 

[chet1926]

Im really losing track of the arguing in this thread. lol. So there are people saying our core isnt good enough and should be traded and the others that are saying thats ridic

Is that the jist of it?

Well from my point of view, I'm being attacked for calling out Landeskog, because apparently no matter what his play is he gets a free pass.

And then the argument stems from if we do miss the playoffs who of the big name players should be shipped off.

And once again since Landeskog is the golden boy, don't bother mentioning him as possibly being shipped out because you are automatically called a ******, and even though it's your opinion, it's wrong no matter what.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Don't forget the goalie controversy.

What controversy? Varly is so worthless that we have to throw him on waivers. No controversy there.

 

[agentblack]

Don't forget the goalie controversy.

Well from my point of view, I'm being attacked for calling out Landeskog, because apparently no matter what his play is he gets a free pass.

And then the argument stems from if we do miss the playoffs who of the big name players should be shipped off.

And once again since Landeskog is the golden boy, don't bother mentioning him as possibly being shipped out because you are automatically called a ******, and even though it's your opinion, it's wrong no matter what.

Oh ok. Got it guys thanks. Ill show myself out. haha Go Avs! see everyone in the GDT later. Im feeling a good win tonight.

 

[JoemAvs]

This is very true but I'd like to think if you're consistently scoring 20+ goals probably 18+ are going to be legit shots, not off the ass and in shot.

I don't think Roy steps down, I think he quits. Like I said earlier he hates to lose. And right now his players seem perfectly content with losing. There is only so much a coach can do before it falls on the players. I think Roy will get fed up with our players attitude, and will show himself out because he won't want to be associated with a losing culture. Roy is a pretty egotistical dude, could totally see thsi happening.

And what happens if they start winning after he is gone?
What exactly has Roy proven other than being different (better) than a crap coach like Sacco?

We had a perfect storm of a season that ended in an unlucky first round exit.
We overachieved like crazy in that season. That is partly on Roy. He is a great motivator IMO.

But aside from that? What system are we running exactly? What has he done to improve our horrid possession play for 3 years now?
Which core player has seen a positive development since that 1 great year?

I think it is a not a coincidence that he won the Memorial Cup the first year he arrived.

Before they go out and trade off our "disappointing" core guys, Roy (and also Joe) should take a long look into the mirror.

 

[dahrougem2]

This is very true but I'd like to think if you're consistently scoring 20+ goals probably 18+ are going to be legit shots, not off the ass and in shot.

And if you're consistently getting 30+ assists probably 27/28+ are going to be legit passes and not just pucks bouncing off of you. It's really the same argument that you can make for both

 

[tigervixxxen]

Wasn't Landy leading the league in primary 5 on 5 assists a couple years ago? If someone wants to link this year's primary points stats I'd be interested to see them, I don't feel like digging through those advanced stats sites. It's a matter of managing expectations. Landy isn't a prototypical power forward (we still need to draft one of those), he's not a sniper (again, need to draft one of those). He's a two way power winger that's going to get you ~60 points. That's what he is. is it fair to criticize his play at times, could he be more dynamic, could be stand to shoot more and be more aggressive at times, yes. But he is what he is, he's the one where there's the least question about what he's going to do on the ice night after night. If that's not enough or if you expect a different player that's fine.

For me this "issue" isn't even a question of who is or isn't giving enough, it's a full on identity crisis. Who knows what this team is, the vision, the philosophies they are adhering to in order to build this team, if they are even building anymore. The questions are larger than that, if Landy can get 20-25 goals or not. IDGAF about that right now.

 

[henchman21]

He's a two way power singer

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm starting to wonder if it might be the system that needs changing rather than the players. Seems like we have a pretty solid group on paper. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see that any time soon.

Except for the defense which is awful and the the source of most of the big mistakes that lead to goals against.

The coverage in their own zone by defenseman is the two ton ball and chain strapped to the Avs ankle, keeping them from moving forward as a team, and as of now their only hope to remedy that, lies in the hands of two 20 year olds.

That's why I would not be surprised at all to see Barrie swaped in the off season for a more reliable two way guy. You might be able to make up for his loss offensively and carrying the puck by committee with the help of two 20 year olds, but it's a pretty tall order to accept them to solve this teams problems defensively in the next few years.

 

[ArWKo]

Landeskog 5v5 This Season

Goals: 9
Primary Assists: 6

Primary Points (G+A1): 15, T-2nd on the team (w/Iggy and MacK) to Duchene's 27.

I'll put up some more team stuff in a second.

 

[cgf]

I can't wait until Rads gets here and we can all stop freaking out about this silliness.

I enjoyed this very much.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Blame my iPad who doesn't think winger is a word

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Landeskog has 15 primary assists. Only Soderberg, Boedker, and Barrie have more.

 

[cgf]

Blame my iPad who doesn't think winger is a word

 

[chet1926]

And what happens if they start winning after he is gone?
What exactly has Roy proven other than being different (better) than a crap coach like Sacco?

We had a perfect storm of a season that ended in an unlucky first round exit.
We are overachieved like crazy in that season. That is partly on Roy. He is a great motivator IMO.

But aside from that? What system are we running exactly? What has he done to improve our horrid possession play for 3 years now?
Which core player has seen a positive development since that 1 great year?

I think it is a not a coincidence that he won the Memorial Cup the first year he arrived.

Before they go out and trade off our "disappointing" core guys, Roy (and also Joe) should take a long look into the mirror.

We don't have to worry about this with this core of players. They are just like Edmonton, stuck in a losing culture and mentality. We find ways to lose instead of finding ways to win.

I'm not here to defend Roy or his system, or the lack of one. One thing is for sure and has been a constant throughout Roy and Sacco. And that is the core players, not getting it done.

I'm to the point with our core assembled as is, that I don't even think Mike Babcock or Barry Trotz comes in here and changes things drastically for us.

Edmonton is a perfect example of what is going on with our core guys. Edmonton brings in a fairly decent coach who has his systems and they have decent success at the NHL level. Edmonton also brings in the next Crosby. And where are they? Just as crappy as always. Because their core players are just so accustom to losing that it doesn't matter what system they run, they find ways to lose.

It's time to start blaming the players, we've blamed it on the coaching for far too long. Duchene has been with us for 7 years, Landy 5 years, EJ is 27 years old, Varly is 27 years old. These guys have all been around the organization for a long time. We can't just keep saying that they are young and will get bettter. Eventually they just have to get results. A playoff appearance every four years isn't getting it done.

 

[ArWKo]

Sorry for the ugly formatting. All these are 5v5, this season. Taken from corsica.hockey.

[fieldset="Primary 5v5 Assists"]1 alex.tanguay 10
2 carl.soderberg 10
3 jarome.iginla 9
4 blake.comeau 9
5 mikhail.grigorenko 9
6 matt.duchene 8
7 gabriel.landeskog 6
8 jack.skille 6
9 nathan.mackinnon 5
10 erik.johnson 5
11 nick.holden 5
12 tyson.barrie 4
13 john.mitchell 3
14 andreas.martinsen 3
15 zach.redmond 3
16 andrew.bodnarchuk 2
17 nikita.zadorov 2
18 cody.mcleod 1
19 francois.beauchemin 1
[/fieldset]

[FIELDSET="5v5 Goals"]1 MATT.DUCHENE 19
2 NATHAN.MACKINNON 10
3 GABRIEL.LANDESKOG 9
4 TYSON.BARRIE 7
5 JOHN.MITCHELL 7
6 CODY.MCLEOD 7
7 JAROME.IGINLA 6
8 JACK.SKILLE 6
9 FRANCOIS.BEAUCHEMIN 5
10 ALEX.TANGUAY 4
11 BLAKE.COMEAU 4
12 ERIK.JOHNSON 4
13 CHRIS.WAGNER 4
14 CARL.SODERBERG 3
15 MIKHAIL.GRIGORENKO 3
16 NICK.HOLDEN 3
17 ANDREAS.MARTINSEN 2
18 ZACH.REDMOND 1
[/FIELDSET]

[FIELDSET="5v5 Primary Points (G+Primary Assists)"]1 MATT.DUCHENE 27
2 NATHAN.MACKINNON 15
3 GABRIEL.LANDESKOG 15
4 JAROME.IGINLA 15
5 ALEX.TANGUAY 14
6 BLAKE.COMEAU 13
7 CARL.SODERBERG 13
8 JACK.SKILLE 12
9 MIKHAIL.GRIGORENKO 12
10 TYSON.BARRIE 11
11 JOHN.MITCHELL 10
12 ERIK.JOHNSON 9
13 CODY.MCLEOD 8
14 NICK.HOLDEN 8
15 FRANCOIS.BEAUCHEMIN 6
16 ANDREAS.MARTINSEN 5
17 CHRIS.WAGNER 4
18 ZACH.REDMOND 4
19 ANDREW.BODNARCHUK 2
20 NIKITA.ZADOROV 2
[/FIELDSET]

[FIELDSET="Penalty Differential (Penalties Drawn - Penalties Taken)"] Player PENDIFF
1 NATHAN.MACKINNON 33
2 MATT.DUCHENE 24
3 GABRIEL.LANDESKOG 23
4 TYSON.BARRIE 12
5 JAROME.IGINLA 10
6 ALEX.TANGUAY 8
7 ERIK.JOHNSON 3
8 FRANCOIS.BEAUCHEMIN 3
9 MIKKO.RANTANEN 3
10 BEN.STREET -1
11 BRANDON.GORMLEY -1
12 DENNIS.EVERBERG -1
13 NICK.HOLDEN -1
14 ANDREW.BODNARCHUK -2
15 NATE.GUENIN -2
16 NIKITA.ZADOROV -2
17 BRAD.STUART -3
18 CHRIS.BIGRAS -5
19 CHRIS.WAGNER -5
20 JOHN.MITCHELL -5
21 MIKHAIL.GRIGORENKO -6
22 ZACH.REDMOND -6
23 ANDREAS.MARTINSEN -7
24 JACK.SKILLE -11
25 CARL.SODERBERG -14
26 BLAKE.COMEAU -15
27 CODY.MCLEOD -20
[/FIELDSET]