Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part VI

[Freudian]

Muzzin isn't bad. He'll probably look much worse with no Doughty but he should be good enough to play with EJ.

But he and Avs window, if they truly are building around our first rounders from 2013 and forwards, are not aligned at all.

 

[BK Avs]

I can see where you are coming from, but I have to disagree on the defence being passable next season with Zadorov's growth, and Bigras being called up. The big reason for this is because EJ is a total wild card every season due to his health, and Barrie seems to go through these long spells of terrible hockey (where he still manages to wrack up points). I just don't think any defence core where EJ/Barrie are your two highest paid defencemen will go very far, unless totally surround by other good to great defencemen as well.

It is hard to argue with that, even though EJ's injuries always seem to be somewhat freak occurrences and unrelated, unless I'm remembering something incorrectly.

On Barrie, I wish he was the piece that was being shopped, because yeah, I just don't see him being a defender you want to build a D around. If we could trade him laterally for someone like Hamonic, then I'd be much more optimistic about an EJ-Hamonic-Zadorov-Bigras D core.

If, in the worst case scenario, Sakic traded Duchene straight up for Sergachev, and Landeskog straight up for Carlo, the Avs would potentially have a defensive group that could look like this next season:

Zadorov-EJ
Sergachev-Carlo
Bigras-Barrie

See, as exciting as Sergachev would be as a prospect in our system, penciling in a 19-year old, first year pro onto your second pairing is incredibly premature. Carlo has started to prove himself, so I won't argue there, but realistically the Sergachev era wouldn't really be upon us for another couple of years.

While I don't think all those pieces fit together extremely well, that group has the potential to grow into a very strong core, that is deep beyond the first pairing. Something this team hasn't seen since the late 90s/early 2000s.

The Avs will probably have some sort of future forward core that looks like this after the draft (depends on the 1st round pick this season):

Rantanen-Mackinnon-__________
Jost-Patrick-________
Greer-Compher-________

Everyone in this group is 21 or under right now. This is the window the Avs should be looking at to become a competitive team. They need to find defencemen to sink up with this future forward group. Trading Duchene and Landeskog, who are already in their mid-20s, would be a great way to do that.

I think this is another putting the cart before the horse. We don't really know that Jost is going to pan out to be a solid top6 guy yet. And we certainly don't know that we're drafting Patrick, or that he or whoever we draft will similarly be a top6 guy. Hell, if the season ended right now, there's still about a 50% chance we pick 4th and miss out on Nolan and Nico.

Yeah, of course re-builds are full of uncertainty, and if we're truly gonna do that, we're gonna have to ride that roller coaster. But I think next year we can have four solid top6 pieces in MacK, Rants, Duchene, and Landy, and then some additional "middle6" pieces to fill out the top9 of Jost, Greer, Compher, and hopefully Nico/Nolan. And a healthy EJ, Z, Barrie (or preferably his replacement), Bigras (with another half-season under his belt) shouldn't be such a bad D core. And our goaltending should stabilize.

I understand there's just as many ifs in my scenario, I just think that if we do go into full re-build mode, there's a good chance we're disappointed by the trade returns and we have to endure another few years of garbage for nothing.

 

[AvsCOL]

We're still not far enough down the road to say who won the trade, but I have to think the Avs came out on top. Was basically:


Ryan O'Reilly + Jamie McGinn


for


Nikita Zadorov, Mikhail Grigorenko, JT Compher, AJ Greer, and Cam Morrison.


I'd say that's quite a haul for a guy with 10 even strength points in 29 games.

 

[Gabe the Babe]

Zadorov won't become a top pair d-man, best you can hope for is 3 or 4. He just doesn't have top 2 potential

Wtf are you talking about? What does he lack? He has all the potential in the world. He can be a true #1 POTENTIALLY. Will he? Idk. But it depends on his work ethic and such.

 

[Balthazar]

We're still not far enough down the road to say who won the trade, but I have to think the Avs came out on top. Was basically:


Ryan O'Reilly


for


Nikita Zadorov, Mikhail Grigorenko, JT Compher, AJ Greer, and Cam Morrison.


I'd say that's quite a haul for a guy with 10 even strength points in 29 games.

Quite a haul but way too early to tell who won. Only things we know for sure is that ROR is great in Buffalo and Grigs' a bust.

 

[Bender]

Dater has a blog post from an hour ago and basically says the following (my typed up version, not his exact words):



http://woodypaige.com/adrian-daters...nally-heard-again-in-world-junior-tournament/

Sad...but not at all surprising. A lot of people see Zadorov play and don't know what they're seeing. They look at the boxscore and see that he's not putting up points and figure 'they don't have much to show for it'.

He's 21 years old and playing as a top-4 D on the worst team in the NHL and looking like one of the few bright spots. When Adam Foote was a young d-man playing on the last place Nordiques way back when, I can tell you for FACT that no one was singing his praises because 1) he still had a lot to learn and 2) that defense needed A LOT of help.

It's kind of funny though, if you actually swapped Carlo and his 8 points for Zadorov and his 6 points and actually put Z on the Bruins besides Chara, I'd be willing to bet good money that there'd be a huge amount of press about how well he's coming along and how great he's playing and if you put Carlo on this team, he'd be a 'train-wreck' and 'not ready for the NHL'.

They'd better be giving us every decent prospect they have at minimum too. Clague, Wagner and their 1st.

Yeah Kempe better be in there if it's a deal with the Kings.

 

[AvsCOL]

Quite a haul but way too early to tell who won. Only things we know for sure is that ROR is great in Buffalo and Grigs' a bust.

I wouldn't go that far. He's a serviceable 3rd liner. The real prize was intended to be Zadorov, not Grigorenko.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Yep I agree Bender. Carlo would likely be in the AHL on this team, even.

 

[Foppa2118]

Dater has a blog post from an hour ago and basically says the following (my typed up version, not his exact words):



http://woodypaige.com/adrian-daters...nally-heard-again-in-world-junior-tournament/

Such a dumb thing to say they rushed the ROR trade. That's the last thing they did. They fielded offers for him for three years.

 

[Foppberg]

I wouldn't go that far. He's a serviceable 3rd liner. The real prize was intended to be Zadorov, not Grigorenko.

Eh.. I prefer Grigs out of the lineup than in, I think he's a bust at this point.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I wouldn't go that far. He's a serviceable 3rd liner. The real prize was intended to be Zadorov, not Grigorenko.

You're kidding right?

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Wtf are you talking about? What does he lack? He has all the potential in the world. He can be a true #1 POTENTIALLY. Will he? Idk. But it depends on his work ethic and such.

He does lack hockey IQ. He definitely has a lot of potential and all the tools. Just missing the toolbox

 

[AvsCOL]

You're kidding right?

Kidding about?

 

[CobraAcesS]

He does lack hockey IQ. He definitely has a lot of potential and all the tools. Just missing the toolbox

Sometimes I wonder if you are trying to walk in NEB's foot steps, and just none of us have figured it out yet.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Such a dumb thing to say they rushed the ROR trade. That's the last thing they did. They fielded offers for him for three years.

Dater continues to have no concept of development, the system, prospects, building. So it's pretty funny he's trying to discuss the Avs doing these sorts of things. He think anyone that's good enough should be in the NHL. He called the WJC "sub-NHL hockey" while talking to Marek. So yeah he gets none of the futures concept of that trade. He always says Z has no goals. How many D in the league even score a lot of goals? It's not many.

 

[the_fan]

Wtf are you talking about? What does he lack? He has all the potential in the world. He can be a true #1 POTENTIALLY. Will he? Idk. But it depends on his work ethic and such.

I think he lacks lateral movement for a d-man his size, I mean his lateral movement isn't very good, and also his hockey IQ isn't very good. Those are two very important attributes for a D-man.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Kidding about?

Grigs does even look like a serviceable NHLer let alone a top 9 player. He brings absolutely nothing to the table. Just useless giraffe size.

Sometimes I wonder if you are trying to walk in NEB's foot steps, and just none of us have figured it out yet.

I'm not the only one who's question Zads' hockey IQ. I mean it's pretty glaring.

Dater continues to have no concept of development, the system, prospects, building. So it's pretty funny he's trying to discuss the Avs doing these sorts of things. He think anyone that's good enough should be in the NHL. He called the WJC "sub-NHL hockey" while talking to Marek. So yeah he gets none of the futures concept of that trade. He always says Z has no goals. How many D in the league even score a lot of goals? It's not many.

While Dater says some pretty outrageous stuff, going 60 games without a goal is alarming. Considering Zadorov is being hailed as a future top pairing defender this has to change.

 

[Foppberg]

I think he lacks lateral movement for a d-man his size, I mean his lateral movement isn't very good, and also his hockey IQ isn't very good. Those are two very important attributes for a D-man.

You have no idea what you're talking about lol

 

[tigervixxxen]

While Dater says some pretty outrageous stuff, going 60 games without a goal is alarming. Considering Zadorov is being hailed as a future top pairing defender

He's hardly been put in offensive situations until now. Would 1 make a difference? I'm not that worried about it because he was a good scorer in the AHL. It's not easy for Ds to just show up and score in that league especially the trash fire that team was last year. So it's not like he doesn't have the capability.

 

[Avs_19]

For a guy that signed Tyutin, Stuart and Beachemin a defender in his late 20s is a young guy.

Crap. You're right.

I'm not the only one who's question Zads' hockey IQ. I mean it's pretty glaring.

Awhile back I made an almost identical all the tools/questionable toolbox post. That was followed up with another post saying there are others who feel the same way about Zadorov and have since before he was drafted. It wasn't very well received. So have fun.

I think there are already fewer mental errors and better positioning in the defensive zone so I believe he'll likely be fine with experience but that's the one question I've had about him.

 

[Bender]

Grigs does even look like a serviceable NHLer let alone a top 9 player. He brings absolutely nothing to the table. Just useless giraffe size.



I'm not the only one who's question Zads' hockey IQ. I mean it's pretty glaring.



While Dater says some pretty outrageous stuff, going 60 games without a goal is alarming. Considering Zadorov is being hailed as a future top pairing defender this has to change.

Lol...I don't know, I've heard people on here question Duchene's hockey IQ, EJ's hockey IQ, etc... These players may not be dynamic playmakers like Crosby but they are star players in the NHL. If they had low hockey IQ, they would never have reached the levels they are currently at.

If you want to question hockey IQ, question John Mitchell, Blake Comeau...those are pretty glaring.

Nikita Zadorov has a ton of skill and a very high hockey IQ...those are not the question marks with this player.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Crap. You're right.



Awhile back I made an almost identical all the tools/questionable toolbox post. That was followed up with another post saying there are others who feel the same way about Zadorov and have since before he was drafted. It wasn't very well received. So have fun.

I think there are already fewer mental errors and better positioning in the defensive zone so I believe he'll likely be fine with experience but that's the one question I've had about him.

hah, might have been me.

but yeah have fun D2M.

 

[the_fan]

You have no idea what you're talking about lol

Oh yeah ok. I also didn't know what I was talking about years ago when the Avs drafted Duchene and Landeskog, everyone thought the Avs would become a winning team with that core, and I said Duchene and Landeskog aren't as good as poeple think, and whatever I thought would happen, has happened. I said a rebuild around guys like Duchene and Landeskog will fail and it has.

You can go back and check those posts from years ago if you think I'm making stuff up. People just tend to get ahead of themselves on here. If Zadorov becomes a 3 or 4, you should be happy. But he's just not a top 2 from what I'm seeing.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

He's hardly been put in offensive situations until now. Would 1 make a difference? I'm not that worried about it because he was a good scorer in the AHL. It's not easy for Ds to just show up and score in that league especially the trash fire that team was last year. So it's not like he doesn't have the capability.

He's gone through 2 coaches and has provided anything resembling a scoring touch nor creating offence for others. 1 wouldn't make a difference but getting into scoring positions or creating them for others would. We haven't seen the big slap shot from the point this could be a coaching issue but that would mean 2 coaches have decided against using him in those positions...maybe they don't think he has it in him?

I'm not saying it's easy but if he ever wants to be a top pairing defender he has to overcome this.

Awhile back I made an almost identical all the tools/questionable toolbox post. That was followed up with another post saying there are others who feel the same way about Zadorov and have since before he was drafted. It wasn't very well received. So have fun.

I think there are already fewer mental errors and better positioning in the defensive zone so I believe he'll likely be fine with experience but that's the one question I've had about him.

It's getting tiresome when you can't question the ability of a young player. We went through this with Grigs last year.

Lol...I don't know, I've heard people on here question Duchene's hockey IQ, EJ's hockey IQ, etc... These players may not be dynamic playmakers like Crosby but they are star players in the NHL. If they had low hockey IQ, they would never have reached the levels they are currently at.

If you want to question hockey IQ, question John Mitchell, Blake Comeau...those are pretty glaring.

Nikita Zadorov has a ton of skill and a very high hockey IQ...those are not the question marks with this player.

... and rightfully so. Main reason why EJ is not a franchise player is because his hockey sense is lacking. Zadorov as of right now is providing little to no offence and still has problems with his positioning as well as the occasional bad decision with the puck. This reeks of poor IQ. With some good coaching he can overcome it but until he does the question mark will be there.

 

[CobraAcesS]

He's hardly been put in offensive situations until now. Would 1 make a difference? I'm not that worried about it because he was a good scorer in the AHL. It's not easy for Ds to just show up and score in that league especially the trash fire that team was last year. So it's not like he doesn't have the capability.

The person who actually pays money for that crap AHL feed, and watches their games regularly is the one I'll trust, and nothing TV has said in her evaluations have ended up being far off the mark.

I my self questioned Z's IQ at one point, but it was very short lived honestly. The guy is adapting to the game at a high level while playing against top competition.

That Chicago game is a great example of what he can do when hes confident and at his peak. He absolutely eliminated Kane and Toews from the game that day. The kid may be inconsistent, but the highs he shows us are very encouraging IMO.

His game is based a lot on his psyche right now, and I think as a male in his early twenties, we're not going to see that completely calm down until he is in the 23-25 range.

Simple Science says that males don't fully mature mentally until their mid twenties, so my personal belief is that is about when Z learns to calm down and be more consistent with his game.

Chara didn't become a star until his late twenties.