Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 2016-17 Part XXI

[Balthazar]

Why not?

That's the kind of mentality that got us into this mess in the first place.

Huh? No, not at all. The kind of mentality that got us in trouble is "Why draft a defenseman this year? We can draft one next year. Why not trade our 2nd rd pick? We can have another one the year after" and so on. The urge of drafting players sure wasn't a problem for this org, let me tell you that.

There's absolutely no way to tell if the player from Montreal's 1st rounder this year will be better or worse than the player from next year. None. We need our rookies to join the current core so they can develop together. We don't want our future #1 dman to be 19 years old when Mack is 31. The sooner we start drafting for the rebuild the better. It starts this year.

 

[AvsMakar08]

I'd be completely ok with Murray, 1st, + for Duchene if Carolina and Montreal don't offer up what we want. Murray is a good top 4 guy and we really need more 1st round picks.



I 50/50 on this one. If we can land Drouin, I'm all in. If it's just for picks, no way. Last night on Insider Trading they mentioned he could be had for a package of high picks, but during the WC they said it had to be a 'hockey trade' so I don't know what the hell is going on there.



If we're getting a first from Montreal it's because they're getting Duchene, so I'm expecting their 2018 first to be lower than their 2017. I guess it all comes down to do you think the bottom of the first round in 2018 will be stronger than this years.

On Murray trade besides 1st pick Colorado will need one more top prospect. As for Barrie, it will most likely be a hockey trade and Bolts need exactly that type of Barrie player.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Huh? No, not at all. The kind of mentality that got us in trouble is "Why draft a defenseman this year? We can draft one next year. Why not trade our 2nd rd pick? We can have another one the year after" and so on. The urge of drafting players sure wasn't a problem for this org, let me tell you that.

There's absolutely no way to tell if the player from Montreal's 1st rounder this year will be better or worse than the player from next year. None. We need our rookies to join the current core so they can develop together. We don't want our future #1 dman to be 19 years old when Mack is 31. The sooner we start drafting for the rebuild the better. It starts this year.

There has to be any sign of a rebuild first.

I see the point but the thing is the year to year plan has to stop. They need a 3-5 year plan where during it they need to address every area but if it works better to do certain things. So yeah we need to accomplish something by year 5 but what happens in year 1 isn't as important.

 

[Balthazar]

There has to be any sign of a rebuild first.

I see the point but the thing is the year to year plan has to stop. They need a 3-5 year plan where during it they need to address every area but if it works better to do certain things. So yeah we need to accomplish something by year 5 but what happens in year 1 isn't as important.

We cannot suck for 5 more years though. Team needs to start compete in 2 years. We aren't Vegas, we don't start from nothing.

 

[CB Joe]

We cannot suck for 5 more years though. Team needs to start compete in 2 years. We aren't Vegas, we don't start from nothing.

I don't think 2 years is realistic. There's still a lot of work to be done in this organisation.

 

[Balthazar]

I don't think 2 years is realistic. There's still a lot of work to be done in this organisation.

I said start to compete, not start to contend (ie: having something that resemble a team).

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

We cannot suck for 5 more years though. Team needs to start compete in 2 years. We aren't Vegas, we don't start from nothing.

And it's that thought process which is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now.


Expecting the worst team in 15+ years to magically be ready to compete in just 2 years will lead to making poor decisions and a lot of mediocrity.

 

[chet1926]

I don't think 2 years is realistic. There's still a lot of work to be done in this organisation.

In two years we better be a heck of a lot better or we failed hard.

Realistically we should have MacK, Jost, Rantanen as solid pieces up front. With complimentary guys like Compher, Greer, Grimaldi, Beaudin. Plus guys like Morrison possibly competing for a spot.

We should have EJ (possibly could also see him getting dealt for a younger guy), Zadorov, Meloche, Mironov, Bigras on defense.

Not to mention I fully expect all 3 of Duchene, Barrie and Landeskog to be dealt in the next 2 years, so those guys should bring some interesting solid pieces.

Plus we have the #4 pick this year and I expect another top 10 pick next season. 2 more solid pieces.

The Avs are finally doing the rebuild correct, which is build through draft picks then make trades to build around those picks. As long as we stop bringing in useless aging vets instead of playing kids, we should be fine.

The Avs need to show marked improvement over the course of the next 2 seasons or I'd consider it a major fail. I fully expect to be competing for a playoff spot in two seasons.

 

[chet1926]

And it's that thought process which is exactly why we're in the situation we're in right now.


Expecting the worst team in 15+ years to magically be ready to compete in just 2 years will lead to making poor decisions and a lot of mediocrity.

The Avs weren't as bad as their record last season. They were bad, but not that bad.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

We cannot suck for 5 more years though. Team needs to start compete in 2 years. We aren't Vegas, we don't start from nothing.

Is that because without being competitive then guys like MacK will also start wanting out?

I can see that. In another two years MacK will have had six seasons under his belt. If he's only made the post season once and sees no signs of improvement then maybe he asks to be moved.

 

[Balthazar]

Is that because without being competitive then guys like MacK will also start wanting out?

I can see that. In another two years MacK will have had six seasons under his belt. If he's only made the post season once and sees no signs of improvement then maybe he asks to be moved.

Not just that, for the fans too. In two years our "new" core will be ready to start to compete (ie: aiming for a playoff spot). The window won't be opened yet but we'll be almost there.

That doesn't mean we should start trading picks for vets.

 

[AvsCOL]

Kind of blows my mind that MacKinnon is basically the same age as Leon Draisaitl and Sam Reinhart. Two months apart.

For those losing patience on him, remember he just barely old enough for the 2013 draft.

 

[CB Joe]

In two years we better be a heck of a lot better or we failed hard.

Realistically we should have MacK, Jost, Rantanen as solid pieces up front. With complimentary guys like Compher, Greer, Grimaldi, Beaudin. Plus guys like Morrison possibly competing for a spot.

We should have EJ (possibly could also see him getting dealt for a younger guy), Zadorov, Meloche, Mironov, Bigras on defense.

Not to mention I fully expect all 3 of Duchene, Barrie and Landeskog to be dealt in the next 2 years, so those guys should bring some interesting solid pieces.

Plus we have the #4 pick this year and I expect another top 10 pick next season. 2 more solid pieces.

The Avs are finally doing the rebuild correct, which is build through draft picks then make trades to build around those picks. As long as we stop bringing in useless aging vets instead of playing kids, we should be fine.

The Avs need to show marked improvement over the course of the next 2 seasons or I'd consider it a major fail. I fully expect to be competing for a playoff spot in two seasons.

Of course we should be a heck of a lot better in two years, but that could still be a very bad team. This seasons roster set the bar very low.

The problem I have is you're penciling in a lot of young guys that still have a lot of developing to do. Aside from Jost and Zadorov I don't think any of the young prospects will contribute in a meaningful way over the next two seasons. Sure they'll get minutes and experience but I don't think they'll really help win games until year 3 or 4. Half of those guys might not ever make it.

I think there is other issues that you need to consider too. First the organisation has to set out a clear plan for the future, if they get it wrong it's going to set the Avs back.

We're likely dealing with an inexperienced GM and coach as well. So you may have a coach not getting the most out of his players and a GM not maximizing value in trades.

This team also needs an identity. Are the Avs going to be a fast skating team or a big physical team? Right not they are kind of caught in the middle. Either way it's going to take some time to get rid of the deadweight and misfits. Part of that identity is going to be getting the players to compete again. There are far too many players on our roster taking far too many games off throughout the season. It's going to take time to break the old habits and instill good new ones.

My other concern is that in the salary cap era there is much more equality among teams, especially the middle pack. To go from a bottom feeder to playoff contender is a big gap to cross. It's almost like hitting a wall. Given the amount of change that needs to happen and the amount of development our young prospects need I don't think the 2 year time frame is realistic.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

The Avs weren't as bad as their record last season. They were bad, but not that bad.

We had some guys underperform a tonne sure, but regardless even if everyone played to the statistical average we were still easily a bottom 3-5 team last year.

The writing is on the wall for this core IMO. It needs to be torn down and restarted from the bottom again.

With the old core of Landy, Duchene, Barrie, EJ, Varlamov, and Mack this team has basically made playoffs just once and didn't even make it out of the first round.

We've now had 4 Top 5 picks in the last 9 years, 6 Top 10 picks, and a would have been 11th overall selection as well if we hadn't traded that pick.

It's time to start over again. We've tried 3 different coaches now, multiple different styles of play, different team builds, different managements, etc. The result has been the same. At some point it stops being on everyone else and starts being on the players*(Not to say management and coaching isn't at fault as well though).

Duchene has to be traded this summer. There's no doubt about that. With Landy and to a lesser extent Barrie it's a more difficult decision. On the one hand Landy especially just had an awful season and selling now would definitely be selling low. But on the other hand with the recent injury information that's come out, if we dont sell now and he has another poor season next year or more injury trouble we're gonna be stuck with him or getting even worse value next year, but if he rebounds and puts up good numbers again we can sell high in the following summer.

The same applies to Barrie although he didn't have that bad of a season in the end last year so I dont think his value is changed that much.



Long story short I pretty strongly believe this team needs to be burned to the ground and start over fresh again. And I think now is the time to do it. Next years draft is supposed to be a very good one with a Franchise level Dman at the top and other potential #1D, #1Cs, and elite Wingers in the first 5-10 picks as well. It's a great draft to start stockpiling picks for similar to how Buffalo and Toronto went about its current rebuild. Barrie, Duchene, and Landy could all net 1st round picks along with other great pieces and having as many as 4 1sts in next years draft with at least one being a Top 5 pick would go a massively long way to jump starting the rebuild for us.

 

[agentblack]

I may not be the biggest Barrie fan but he's totally gonna Schultz his way onto some contender if he gets traded. He'll probably be way better actually.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I may not be the biggest Barrie fan but he's totally gonna Schultz his way onto some contender if he gets traded. He'll probably be way better actually.

To an extent. His defensive game will never improve much more than what it is right now.


But if he were to go to a highly offensive team like Toronto, Washington, or Edmonton.... Ya, I could see him having a few 60 or even 65+ point seasons. If he stays with us and we can build a high octane offense team I think it's possible he does it with us.


But if it were up to me I'd still be looking to trade him this summer. 2018 1st + Top prospect + another piece. Something like Caleb Jones + EDM 1st + another prospect. Or Vrana + WSH 1st + Orpik(For Cap reasons).

 

[agentblack]

What about the Rags? Not a total guarantee they land Shatty and Barrie is $$ cheaper

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

What about the Rags? Not a total guarantee they land Shatty and Barrie is $$ cheaper

I would imagine a lot of teams would have interest in Barrie. He's a solid Top 4D who creates offense from the back end and teams are always looking for more of that type of player.

Not sure if he'd explode with the Rangers like the other teams I mentioned but could definitely see him fitting in well.

They'd have to find a way to move one if not both of Girardi and Staal's contracts though. Of course we could also take them on in the deal but that would mean it would have to be an even better return for us for that to happen. If we took on Staal's contract for example I would be asking for Buchnevich and the 2018 1st as well. Rangers would have a good Defense at that point though. Skjei is going to be a monster and they already have McDonagh, add Barrie and that's 3/4's of a great Top 4.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Like I said the other night, it's not going to take much if anything to get back to ~80 point team. I could see it happen even next year. The league is set up for parity, it wants to find equilibrium there. It's the step to a real non-miracle ~95 points that's monumental. They bumbled around the delusion bubble for a decade, there's absolutely no reason why that won't continue. I don't get where the expectation is that they are just going to roll out 60 point seasons for the foreseeable future is coming from. Yeah we sucked in a completely unplanned epic, historic fashion. They couldn't do it again if they tried.

 

[Mighty Makar]

The Oilers and Barrie are a perfect fit.

 

[hughdreamz]

The Oilers and Barrie are a perfect fit.

They wanted him bad last year but wouldn't give up Hall for him. He would fit with them, but if it involves Eberle, no thanks.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Like I said the other night, it's not going to take much if anything to get back to ~80 point team. I could see it happen even next year. The league is set up for parity, it wants to find equilibrium there. It's the step to a real non-miracle ~95 points that's monumental. They bumbled around the delusion bubble for a decade, there's absolutely no reason why that won't continue. I don't get where the expectation is that they are just going to roll out 60 point seasons for the foreseeable future is coming from. Yeah we sucked in a completely unplanned epic, historic fashion. They couldn't do it again if they tried.

I pretty strongly disagree with that, unless the Avs are heavily active in free agency, or literally every young player we have that joins the team next year monumentally exceeds expectations.



We have absolutely no depth at all. Zero. None. We have 3-4 good forwards and 3 good Dmen, the rest of the team is playing at least 1 and mostly 2 lines above where they should be playing.


There's absolutely no way this team, as is right now bounces back to be an 80 point team next year.

It's absolutely unrealistic to expect this team to be an 80 point team next year. Just like how it's also unrealistic to expect them to be this bad again and have another sub ~50 point season. 10 wins more next year still only puts us at 68 points, and that will be 30th or 29th place once again.

 

[Goulet17]

They wanted him bad last year but wouldn't give up Hall for him. He would fit with them, but if it involves Eberle, no thanks.

Eberle makes no sense for Barrie (more actual salary, less valuable position, older, signed for fewer years, represented by Newport).

RNH does not make a great deal of sense to me either.

You then have to start looking at Puljujarvi and/or Nurse, and then the risks shift back to the Avs on uncertain prospects/young players. Plus, the cheap ELCs have a great deal of value to the Oilers currently and in the near future.

The teams are a bad trade fit in reality.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I pretty strongly disagree with that, unless the Avs are heavily active in free agency, or literally every young player we have that joins the team next year monumentally exceeds expectations.



We have absolutely no depth at all. Zero. None. We have 3-4 good forwards and 3 good Dmen, the rest of the team is playing at least 1 and mostly 2 lines above where they should be playing.


There's absolutely no way this team, as is right now bounces back to be an 80 point team next year.

It's absolutely unrealistic to expect this team to be an 80 point team next year. Just like how it's also unrealistic to expect them to be this bad again and have another sub ~50 point season. 10 wins more next year still only puts us at 68 points, and that will be 30th or 29th place once again.

What did they do every year after they bottomed out? If they actually play the kids and Varly isn't crippled it's not going to take much. But make no mistake 80 points isn't any semblance of "good", it's just enough to get up the illusion of competitive. They had 80 points the year before with pretty much the same roster. I'm not saying expect like it's an expectation but it's a probability.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Eberle makes no sense for Barrie (more actual salary, less valuable position, older, signed for fewer years, represented by Newport).

RNH does not make a great deal of sense to me either.

You then have to start looking at Puljujarvi and/or Nurse, and then the risks shift back to the Avs on uncertain prospects/young players. Plus, the cheap ELCs have a great deal of value to the Oilers currently and in the near future.

The teams are a bad trade fit in reality.

Rnh was good fit with McK in World Cup. That's why pe9ole offer him