Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 2016-17 Part XXI

[Patagonia]

i have a questions for Avs fans like me. Some team have problem with a salary cap like
Isles and Bluejacket.
Sakic can keep 50% of Duchene salary for increase his value ans receive a better offer?

CDH + Strome or Barzal + first round - Duchene(50%) and with Barzal in the deal avs take a cap dump.

Murray + PLD - Duchene(50%) + second round 2017(32)

Can't see either team giving us Barzal or PLD.

A better solution is accept Cap Dumps ie Arizona and NJD. AVs will have approx $18M available that could used to get even more value that can be re-traded. There is no need for the retention which seems to degrade a classy player like Duchene to rid at all costs.

 

[Miri]

Hamonic is a fantastic defenseman and would have been a great partner for Zadorov.

But who needs actual top-4 defensemen when you can just dumpster dive for guys like Tyutin, Wiercioch, Barbeiro, Guenin, Benoit, Holden, Bodnarchuck, Gormley, etc etc.

Why Sakic is being so picky in adding any sort of quality defenseman is beyond me. I'm sure the + in that deal would have been pretty good too.

How many years has his management team been saying they need good defenseman? And all they've managed to add is Zadorov. Despite having the assets to do so, instead they waste second round picks on Berra, Stuart and Boedker instead of Boychuck, Stone or Marincin types.

Perhaps that + was not so pretty good after all.

And why is Sakic picky? Perhaps cause he has like 4 bonafide top-six players (first-liners) on this team and if he is about to trade any of them, it better be for a (potential) first pairing defensman. If we lose our star forwards for bunch of second tier defensmen, then well have nobody upfront, neither good enough defense (even though better than now).

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Whatever channel he speaks at during intermission

How do I know? Someone DMed me. It's not a big deal but if they want to come post about it they can. It wasn't like a secret or anything but I'll keep who it is private since it was a DM. I thought I'd ask since I figured someone here was watching tonight on French tv, no?

Anyone else able to elaborate on this? Or maybe TV can PM me.

 

[Tommy Shelby]

Perhaps that + was not so pretty good after all.

And why is Sakic picky? Perhaps cause he has like 4 bonafide top-six players (first-liners) on this team and if he is about to trade any of them, it better be for a (potential) first pairing defensman. If we lose our star forwards for bunch of second tier defensmen, then well have nobody upfront, neither good enough defense (even though better than now).

Doesn't matter they can just draft a top-6 forward in every first round like they've been doing for years or just sign some as free agents.

This team needs D, the most difficult commodity to come by and yet refuse to trade from a position of strength to address the massive glaring hole on the back end when given the chance unless it's completely forced on them like the ROR deal.

It seems people here have become so complacent and have just resigned themselves to the fact that's we'll never have an NHL worthy blue line.

 

[JoemAvs]

Doesn't matter they can just draft a top-6 forward in every first round like they've been doing for years or just sign some as free agents.

This team needs D, the most difficult commodity to come by and yet refuse to trade from a position of strength to address the massive glaring hole on the back end when given the chance unless it's completely forced on them like the ROR deal.

It seems people here have become so complacent and have just resigned themselves to the fact that's we'll never have an NHL worthy blue line.

IMO you and a few others are missing the point.

Yes the Avs needs D in general. But more importantly they need top end D talent.

If you sacrifice our few top tier assets just to improve the D in general, we will never get the top end D talent required to ever become much more than a bubble team or a first round exit in the next 5-10 years.

So yeah. The Avs need to really improve their overall D. But they really shouldn't use Duchene or Landy just to bring in a few more good middle pairing Ds...

IMO if they won't fetch us prospects or players that have realistic (aka a good bet to reach it) top pairing potential, the trade will be a huge failure...


That is why I have to shake my head when I read about some people who just want to start over and trade Duchene or Landy for a bunch of B+ prospects and picks...

These guys are our "golden ticket" to shorten the inevitable rebuild.
Each extra "core piece" those guys fetch us might shorten the rebuild by a year because history has shown us that the Avs need a top10 pick to land those pieces usually and we only get one of those per year.

Depth is an issue. But depth needs to be fixed by smarter UFA signings and finally accepting that this team has to be a seller in the next 2-3 years at the deadline regardless how close they are to the playoffs. It certainly mustn't be fixed primarily by moving out Duchene, Landeskog or Barrie.

These trades probably will help with that just because we will be trading them for future packages but the above all goal in those trades has to be landing a future building block (preferably on D)...

These trades have to be all about the one centerpiece we get in return and not how many B+ prospects or picks are added to it...

 

[Goulet17]

IMO you are missing the point.

Yes the Avs needs D in general. But more importantly they need top end D talent.

If you sacrifice our few top tier assets just to improve the D in general, we will never get the top end D talent required to ever become much more than a bubble team or a first round exit in the next 5-10 years.

So yeah. The Avs need to really improve their overall D. But they really shouldn't use Duchene or Landy just to bring in a few more good middle pairing Ds...

IMO if they won't fetch us prospects or players that have realistic (aka a good bet to reach it) top pairing potential, the trade will be a huge failure...

Agreed on your points.

Here is B.D. Gallof's article/blog post about the Avs-Isles attempt to trade at the deadline. He reiterated that the Avs have no interest in Hamonic. Interestingly, apparently the Isles tried to push a Hall-Hamonic trade, but Edmonton was not interested in Hamonic either.

http://islesbeat.com/2017/03/rocky-mountain-low-for-the-isles-at-the-trade-deadline/

 

[Metallo]

Can't see either team giving us Barzal or PLD.

A better solution is accept Cap Dumps ie Arizona and NJD. AVs will have approx $18M available that could used to get even more value that can be re-traded. There is no need for the retention which seems to degrade a classy player like Duchene to rid at all costs.

I agree that we should look deep into cap dumps that are on the 1-2 yr term.

But, rentention also needs to be explored to open up trade possibilities, that is not degrading to Duchene, it's to accomodate a team that is right up to the cap.

(And by defintion a cap dump is a negative value player that can't be re-traded to gain assets.)

 

[Patagonia]

I agree that we should look deep into cap dumps that are on the 1-2 yr term.

But, rentention also needs to be explored also to open up trade possibilities, that is not degrading to Duchene, it's to accomodate a team that is right up to the cap.

(And by defintion a cap dump is a negative value player that can't be re-traded to gain assets.)

I agree, but the AVs can retain some of the cap dump (if possible) for picks.

For example the CBJ offering Murray, but they have little Cap Space so even if Duchene is 50% retained (max allowed) they will still have problems. Hartnell $5M+ is also on a NMC player they want to buyout with a few years remaining, the AVs can make this trade with a team that might be hesitant due to the cap. They might squeeze another prospect or pick.

 

[JoemAvs]

I agree, but the AVs can retain some of the cap dump (if possible) for picks.

For example the CBJ offering Murray, but they have little Cap Space so even if Duchene is 50% retained (max allowed) they will still have problems. Hartnell $5M+ is also on a NMC player they want to buyout with a few years remaining, the AVs can make this trade with a team that might be hesitant due to the cap. They might squeeze another prospect or pick.

Murray as a centerpiece is really not worth it to retain 50 % on Duchene.

I was probably one of the first guys that was somewhat ok with him coming back in a Duchene trade but he somehow seems to have skyrocketed in value on hfboards over the last few weeks for some weird reason. And I really disagree with that.

He isn't good enough to justify a deal like that. They would atleast have to add PLD to him to make me even consider it. And they would never do that. And I probably wouldn't either. Duchene @ 3M honestly should get you a better D especially if you also have to fork over 6M over 2 years for nothing...

 

[Avs71]

How good is Brodin?

 

[Foppberg]

Anyone else able to elaborate on this? Or maybe TV can PM me.

Ditto.

Murray as a centerpiece is really not worth it to retain 50 % on Duchene.

I was probably one of the first guys that was somewhat ok with him coming back in a Duchene trade but he somehow seems to have skyrocketed in value on hfboards over the last few weeks for some weird reason. And I really disagree with that.

He isn't good enough to justify a deal like that. They would atleast have to add PLD to him to make me even consider it. And they would never do that. And I probably wouldn't either. Duchene @ 3M honestly should get you a better D especially if you also have to fork over 6M over 2 years for nothing...

Probably because he's been a discussion on the trade boards and now Columbus fans are pumping his tires up

 

[RockLobster]

Anyone else able to elaborate on this? Or maybe TV can PM me.

Check your Twitter DM's.

But there's nothing more to her question (I got the same message). It was just someone who saw Lavoie say something on TVA Sports between the 2nd and 3rd period of last night's game. We don't know the context of it, we don't know if he was saying more-or-less the same thing McKenzie had said, but saying it in French this time, etc.

 

[Nalens Oga]

6) Trade Joe Colborne back to Calgary for Lance Bouma

7) Trade Blake Comeau to Boston for Jimmy Hayes

I like your reasoning for both of them but realistically, these aren't moves that even good teams make very often let alone a team as lazy as the Avs front office. Our guys just aren't pro-active at making necessary tweaks like that. Better GMs don't even have to make those trades much because they can just toss those players aside and replace them with guys from their farm but Sakic never plans these things out. I'm guessing they'll be here till their contracts expire.

The guy wasn't able to gain a single future for what should've been a firesale at the deadline because he was waiting for other teams to call him.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Since the cap shouldn't be an issue next 2 years yeah I'd retain on Duchene but then one of those blue chip prospects has to come back or an additional + like another 1st.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

The point is that there have been offers on the table that Sakic has refused to pull the trigger on while preaching about how they need good young defensemen and how they're hard to get. There's a reason that other GMs got annoyed with him for offering exactly what he was asking for and being strung along until the last minute at the deadline and it isn't because they were trying to leak info and put pressure on him since this happened after the deadline.

There could be a huge difference between a GM thinking he is meeting Sakic's demand and what Sakic is actually asking for.

You should probably wait and see what Sakic actually trades Duchene for before jumping off the cliff.

 

[Ararana]

Agreed on your points.

Here is B.D. Gallof's article/blog post about the Avs-Isles attempt to trade at the deadline. He reiterated that the Avs have no interest in Hamonic. Interestingly, apparently the Isles tried to push a Hall-Hamonic trade, but Edmonton was not interested in Hamonic either.

http://islesbeat.com/2017/03/rocky-mountain-low-for-the-isles-at-the-trade-deadline/

I forgot how salty the Islanders got after the trade deadline. Good job digging that article up, there were some interesting points in there. Gallof ended up lighting the Islanders FO on fire rather than blaming Sakic. Saying the Inlanders were Sakic's fallback plan and, in the end, didnt have the defenseman required (Hamonic was too old and too injured, Pulock was too inexperienced in the NHL).

Then this past trade deadline, the NY Islanders tried to do whatever it took to land Matt Duchene.

No Gallof, evidently they didn't.

I think the Islanders are going to have a hard time landing Duchene, they're just not the best fit. Carolina, Montreal, and Columbus could easily offer packages that could make the Islanders irrelevant.

The Colorado Avalanche want a top 4 D under the age of 25.
They want that top 4 D to have some NHL pedigree and track record of success.
They want a top prospect.
They want a 1st round pick.
That was the cost of Matt Duchene.

I wonder if that's still Sakic's asking price.

 

[CB Joe]

I'd guess it's pretty close to what they are asking. I'd say they are more willing to compromise on the prospect or what round the pick is in based on how good or experienced the defenseman is.

 

[seafoam]

Agreed on your points.

Here is B.D. Gallof's article/blog post about the Avs-Isles attempt to trade at the deadline. He reiterated that the Avs have no interest in Hamonic. Interestingly, apparently the Isles tried to push a Hall-Hamonic trade, but Edmonton was not interested in Hamonic either.

http://islesbeat.com/2017/03/rocky-mountain-low-for-the-isles-at-the-trade-deadline/

Isles fan coming in peace, I would take what BD Gallof says with a grain of salt. He hasn't been close to the organization for about a decade now. The only one Islanders-specific reporter who has legitimate connections to the team is Arthur Staple.

The ONLY thing I will say is true top pairing defenseman are very rarely traded, and that there are only a handful of those top pairing guys who are true game changers on top of that (at least our head coach Doug Weight thinks so at least)

Full disclosure, we have a really, really solid D," Weight said. "There’s 25 teams missing a (Drew) Doughty, a (Brent) Burns, a (Erik) Karlsson. But I think our D, with the exception of that, is one of the deepest in the league and I really like them.

In today's NHL, if you want a legitimate top pairing defenseman and/or game changer on top of that, you have to draft one (unless you're willing to move MacKinnon).

I'm not saying there is a deal to be made between the Islanders, but they do have five defenseman that they would like to protect in the expansion draft and four of them are legitimate top four defenseman with the exception of Pulock. When the Islanders acquired Leddy and Boychuk a few years ago, it completely transformed the team because they essentially added a top four pairing, even if neither of them were top pairing guys at the time.

The Islanders can offer one of de Haan, Hamonic, or Pulock if that's the direction Colorado wants to go in and Nelson or Strome if Colorado wants an NHL forward coming back, or one of Bellows or Dal Colle if that's the direction they want to go in. Maybe the 15th pick on top of that.

With a team like Minnesota having too many D to protect as well, maybe they can add a second top four defenseman and acquire an entire top four pairing this offseason.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The Islanders can offer one of de Haan, Hamonic, or Pulock if that's the direction Colorado wants to go in and Nelson or Strome if Colorado wants an NHL forward coming back, or one of Bellows or Dal Colle if that's the direction they want to go in. Maybe the 15th pick on top of that.

This is basically one of the D they can't protect anyway, a prospect that has disappointed and maybe a 1st. Does that sound good enough, really?

 

[Goulet17]

Isles fan coming in peace, I would take what BD Gallof says with a grain of salt. He hasn't been close to the organization for about a decade now. The only one Islanders-specific reporter who has legitimate connections to the team is Arthur Staple.

The ONLY thing I will say is true top pairing defenseman are very rarely traded, and that there are only a handful of those top pairing guys who are true game changers on top of that (at least our head coach Doug Weight thinks so at least)



In today's NHL, if you want a legitimate top pairing defenseman and/or game changer on top of that, you have to draft one (unless you're willing to move MacKinnon).

I'm not saying there is a deal to be made between the Islanders, but they do have five defenseman that they would like to protect in the expansion draft and four of them are legitimate top four defenseman with the exception of Pulock. When the Islanders acquired Leddy and Boychuk a few years ago, it completely transformed the team because they essentially added a top four pairing, even if neither of them were top pairing guys at the time.

The Islanders can offer one of de Haan, Hamonic, or Pulock if that's the direction Colorado wants to go in and Nelson or Strome if Colorado wants an NHL forward coming back, or one of Bellows or Dal Colle if that's the direction they want to go in. Maybe the 15th pick on top of that.

With a team like Minnesota having too many D to protect as well, maybe they can add a second top four defenseman and acquire an entire top four pairing this offseason.

An issue has always existed with proposals from Isles' fans regarding Duchene, at least in my mind. Hamonic is older than Duchene and de Haan is basically the same age.

Does either player really improve the Avs this coming season or next? Recall that in this context the improvement that the Avs show on defense would seem to be offset by more offensive challenges.

Neither player significantly improves the Avs in the short term, at least in terms of being a playoff contender, and neither player helps in the long term as the Avs move through the rebuilding process. It is simply moving around deck chairs, if you know what I mean.

Now, I would likely be more open to a futures deal involving Pulock, but it would have to involve significant additions from the Isles, including at least their 2017 first round draft pick and another prospect not named MDC. I think MDC is unlikely to be an impact NHL player. It also would not include players that the Isles cannot protect in the ED, like a Nelson or Strome, which frankly add little to the Avs long term IMO.

Having said that I am open to a futures deal, the challenge for Sakic is that he still has the shadow of the ROR trade hanging over him, which may muddy the waters in terms of making an additional futures trade of a relatively young core player.

I also want to point out that I think it is extremely unlikely that Duchene is traded prior to the ED. We shall see.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

CDH + Dal Colle + NYI 1st would be a solid package from NYI.


But I would venture to guess the "sticking point" to this point at least has been the Islanders trying to replace CDH with Hamonic instead and the Avs not biting.


And if we retained 50% on Duchene we probably can get both Dal Colle and Bellows.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Since the cap shouldn't be an issue next 2 years yeah I'd retain on Duchene but then one of those blue chip prospects has to come back or an additional + like another 1st.

Agree. I think we should retain on him regardless. That should net us at least a 2nd/3rd rounder in addition to whatever else we would have gotten. Or even better maybe it turns a Bellows into a Barzal, though I've given up hope that Barzal is anywhere near being an option right now.

 

[Goulet17]

CDH + Dal Colle + NYI 1st would be a solid package from NYI.


But I would venture to guess the "sticking point" to this point at least has been the Islanders trying to replace CDH with Hamonic instead and the Avs not biting.

I would have no interest in MDC, who I think is unlikely to ever make any kind of impact in the NHL. Moving him as a component in a trade for Duchene would be a major win for the Isles.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I would have no interest in MDC, who I think is unlikely to ever make any kind of impact in the NHL. Moving him as a component in a trade for Duchene would be a major win for the Isles.

Well that's just silly. He's only 20 years old who just had his first pro season.


Writing off a 20 year old former Top 5 1st is a stupid thing to do. Almost as dumb as the people who say 21 year old Mackinnon is nothing more than a 50 point player now.

 

[JoemAvs]

CDH + Dal Colle + NYI 1st would be a solid package from NYI.


But I would venture to guess the "sticking point" to this point at least has been the Islanders trying to replace CDH with Hamonic instead and the Avs not biting.


And if we retained 50% on Duchene we probably can get both Dal Colle and Bellows.

Really wouldn't . Terrible idea.

None of those pieces will even have remotely the same impact as Duchene will have with the Islanders...

That is not solid.

We don't get younger with the centerpiece (CDH same age as Matt). We don't land a crucial piece we need for the rebuild (26 year old middle pairing guy CDH is not that) and we will be laughed at for taking that deal for years to come.

This is the ROR deal only with Pysyk instead of Zadorov that Sabres fans were proposing over and over if I would want to compare the two.

And I think we can all agree that we are glad that we got Zads and not Pysyk....