Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 17-18 Part VIII

[the_fan]

Avs should trade for Erik Karlsson, William Karlsson and sign Carlson just to mess with McNabb's head

 

[RoyIsALegend]

Yeah, but what’s the Price with Patches?

 

[Avs_19]

There's something to trying to win while MacKinnon is on a steal of a contract but I also think some people are getting a little carried away because of the surprising success the Avs had this past season. I'm all for Stastny, Skinner, Silfverberg, etc to improve the team and get another top six forward but continuing to develop the young players isn't the worst thing.

 

[RockLobster]

I think people have a misunderstanding of where the Avs are at as a franchise, and where Sakic views them to be. They're still a young team that's building for the future. They're not a Cup challenging team looking to make a sophomore their permanent 2c. They're looking to evaluate the young players they have, and where they might be able to slot in for the future. Jost is one of them.

There isn't really much difference between a Jost centered "2nd line" and a Soda centered "3rd line" unless one of them struggles, or one of them has success.

People are getting way too hung up on the title of 2C for Tyson Jost next year. If it puts people at ease just call him a 3C with the same line mates. There won't be much distinction between the 2nd line and the 3rd line next year, unless one of the lines separates themselves from the other.

Or he’s calling Jost what he is as of this moment—an extremely unproven prospect that hasn’t shown he’s ready to be a 2C.

Also, where did he say Jost was anything like Stewart/Wolski? They were only brought up to show that the Avs do, in fact, lose patience with players.

 

[Foppa2118]

Or he’s calling Jost what he is as of this moment—an extremely unproven prospect that hasn’t shown he’s ready to be a 2C.

Also, where did he say Jost was anything like Stewart/Wolski? They were only brought up to show that the Avs do, in fact, lose patience with players.

The point being made was that the Avs lose patience quickly, and 2019-20 could be a make or break year for Jost. The examples supporting that were Wolski and Stewart, and later Bigras, Bleakley, Everberg, Rendulic, Heard, Bourke, Smith, Hishon, Gaunce, etc.

The Avs lost patience in those players for reasons entirely different than Jost. Literally none of them are comparable.

Practically all of those players were given up on because they either lacked NHL ability, lacked work ethic, or walked away themselves. None of that applies to Jost.

Calling Jost a 2C is pretty close to a matter of semantics. Soda was a checking line last year, but was played like a 2nd line. The same will more or less be the case next year, unless Jost starts to establish himself.

It's not like Bednar is gonna tell Jost he's the 2C and Soda he's the 3C. Each line plays a different style, and has a different role. They'll each play a regular shift in the rotation until one of them separates themselves from the other. It's really not that big a deal.

 

[RockLobster]

The point being made was that the Avs lose patience quickly, and 2019-20 could be a make or break year for Jost. The examples supporting that were Wolski and Stewart, and later Bigras, Bleakley, Everberg, Rendulic, Heard, Bourke, Smith, Hishon, Gaunce, etc.

The Avs lost patience in those players for reasons entirely different than Jost. Literally none of them are comparable.

Practically all of those players were given up on because they either lacked NHL ability, lacked work ethic, or walked away themselves. None of that applies to Jost.

Calling Jost a 2C is pretty close to a matter of semantics. Soda was a checking line last year, but was played like a 2nd line. The same will more or less be the case next year, unless Jost starts to establish himself.

It's not like Bednar is gonna tell Jost he's the 2C and Soda he's the 3C. Each line plays a different style, and has a different role. They'll each play a regular shift in the rotation until one of them separates themselves from the other. It's really not that big a deal.

...

The point was they lose patience, doesn’t matter the reason for each player, they lose it and move on at a certain point, and it’s a valid point in the matter of Jost. I say that because while he didn’t have a terrible rookie season, he showed nothing that says he’s ready for the 2C role. If the Avs force him into that role without him being ready, or with subpar linemates, then that’s really setting him behind the 8-ball; and given their track record of losing patience and giving up on players that don’t meet their expectations, it’s not something that’s completely out of the question.

Now, I’ve said my piece, I’m done here.

 

[AvsMakar08]

Or he’s calling Jost what he is as of this moment—an extremely unproven prospect that hasn’t shown he’s ready to be a 2C.

Also, where did he say Jost was anything like Stewart/Wolski? They were only brought up to show that the Avs do, in fact, lose patience with players.

 

[Foppa2118]

...

The point was they lose patience, doesn’t matter the reason for each player, they lose it and move on at a certain point, and it’s a valid point in the matter of Jost. I say that because while he didn’t have a terrible rookie season, he showed nothing that says he’s ready for the 2C role. If the Avs force him into that role without him being ready, or with subpar linemates, then that’s really setting him behind the 8-ball; and given their track record of losing patience and giving up on players that don’t meet their expectations, it’s not something that’s completely out of the question.

Now, I’ve said my piece, I’m done here.

You're looking at it the wrong way. They lost patience in those players because they either didn't have NHL ability, had poor work ethic, got concussions, or they walked away themselves. If none of that applies to Jost, then there's no reason to think they will lose patience in Jost after 2019-20.

Not to mention none of those players played in the NHL as 19/20 year olds like Jost. They all spent 2+ seasons outside the NHL after being drafted. Another reason why his situation, and his season last year isn't comparable.

To be honest though this whole conversation is based on the premise of Jost not panning out as expected. Something that's been pushed be certain people since he was drafted. This is just an extension of that. Suddenly we're talking about the team giving up on Jost one season into his NHL career where he was the 12th youngest player in the league.

 

[Patagonia]

Jost has a much better work ethic than those other players, but should have stayed another season in College or sent to the AHL. Notwithstanding, I have the upmost confidence he will be at least a solid 3C with 2C potential.

 

[Foppa2118]

Jost has a much better work ethic than those other players, but should have stayed another season in College or sent to the AHL. Notwithstanding, I have the upmost confidence he will be at least a solid 3C with 2C potential.

Absolutely. And if he ends up a 3C instead of a 2C, there's no reason to think the Avs will give up on him because of that.

 

[agentblack]

Avs should trade for Erik Karlsson, William Karlsson and sign Carlson just to mess with McNabb's head

Its a year of Karlssons , sounds like an article

 

[McMetal]

Now the offseason truly begins. Wonder how long we'll have to wait for the first trade?

 

[UncleRisto]

Now the offseason truly begins. Wonder how long we'll have to wait for the first trade?

The inside guessers are hoping we'll get one next week.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Yeah I'm thinking Monday or Tuesday next week we see something. Not sure if it'll be something massive like Jeff Skinner or Mike Hoffman, but something.



Could see Vegas trading Neal's UFA rights next week to a team like Pittsburgh.

 

[Balthazar]

LeBrun said 2 days ago that the Skinner trade could happen "within 7 to 10 days".

 

[Pokecheque]

LeBrun said 2 days ago that the Skinner trade could happen "within 7 to 10 days".

Well, we'll see. Dundon talked big about bringing in a GM...ended up bringing no one in.

 

[Balthazar]

Well, we'll see. Dundon talked big about bringing in a GM...ended up bringing no one in.

While looking for Skinner rumors I came across a few quotes from Dundon:

"Either the players have to be tougher or you have to bring in tougher players," he said. "I'm easy, I'll take either one".

Dundon continued: “We will have to see when they get back [for training camp] if their bodies are bigger, stronger, faster and if their attitudes are consistent with what they told me they will be.”

Those are a couple of months old but it sounds like he's looking for toughness which is probably why they'd get rid of Skinner. If that's the case there will be no Kerfoot involved.

Source

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

It's also why AJ Greer is the logical prospect of choice from that team. Fits what they're looking for almost perfectly.

 

[Ivan13]

And then when as an example of a tough player he listed Aho. He wants players who are tough to play against because of a vast array of factors, skill being at the top, and not just brutes.

 

[CobraAcesS]

While looking for Skinner rumors I came across a few quotes from Dundon:

"Either the players have to be tougher or you have to bring in tougher players," he said. "I'm easy, I'll take either one".

Dundon continued: “We will have to see when they get back [for training camp] if their bodies are bigger, stronger, faster and if their attitudes are consistent with what they told me they will be.”

Those are a couple of months old but it sounds like he's looking for toughness which is probably why they'd get rid of Skinner. If that's the case there will be no Kerfoot involved.

Source

Well I'm sure they'd love Greer then. We can throw in Comeau's rights too if they want to talk to him a bit early.

I actually find it amusing that an owner is going to come in and basically assume the players are not trying hard enough. Maybe the team was built on middle six players up front and doesn't have the high end talent needed to go far.

I've got news for them. Adding a elite winger isn't going to change that enough.

 

[Postanin CB Ting]

Who do you think are some teams that will be in Carolinas position selling assets in 1 - 2 years?

 

[ABasin]

Both Wolski and Stewart had decent success afterwards. Their flaws still came to light over time and the Avs weren’t wrong... they did lose patience.

I’d be careful on the Bennett/Jost thing. Bennett was a superior prospect and every season he has had in the NHL was superior to Jost’s. Especially just comparing rookie seasons. Just because Jost is still a pure prospect, doesn’t mean a similar path won’t happen.

I believe the Avs could be in a good position in regards to Jost’s development, due to the presence of Soderberg. They have a horse who can play 2C minutes or 3C minutes, play the tough matchup minutes, and have Jost take the other C position. The Avs aren’t going to win the Cup with Soderberg playing 2C, but they could develop a proper young NHL center with Soderberg playing 2C.

What they need to do, is get Jost a proper NHL scorer on his wing.

I don’t disagree that Jost failed to establish himself as a NHL 2C last season, particularly offensively. However, I did feel that his overall play was better in March than it was in November, which is a good sign. In his rookie season, Jost scored points at about the same rate as Ryan O’Reilly did in his first season. And no, I’m not making any claims in regards to Jost being O’R’s equal as a player. Sometimes different phases of development take time, and I believe the Avs are going to give Jost this shot. I just hope they don’t do it with borderline NHL guys on his wings.

 

[henchman21]

We will disagree on Soda, he's #2C capable in a pinch and last year it worked simply because MacK was out of this world good... but Soda really is a #3C and should be utilized that way. I think he can be a very solid #3C and work pretty damn well there. Make him a #2C and MacK regresses a little bit, I don't think this team can make the playoffs without a large jump in development from other players.

With regards to how Jost/ROR compare on rookie seasons... I don't think they do that well, but I think you have to look deeper than the point rate. Jost was gifted some top PP time and ended up with 8 PP points. Meaning he had 14 even strength points in his 65 games. ROR had 24 even strength points in 81 games (and 2 shorthanded).

FTR I think Jost will be a really good NHL player one day. I know it seems like I'm being harsh, but I have routinely stated that I think he will be a 2nd line capable player (even if I think he ends up a wing). The whole point is that if Jost is going to be relied upon in that role next year, he needs a ton of support right now. Rolling him out there with Kerfoot and Ghetto is setting him up to fail.

 

[ABasin]

...
Jost. I say that because while he didn’t have a terrible rookie season, he showed nothing that says he’s ready for the 2C role. If the Avs force him into that role without him being ready, or with subpar linemates, then that’s really setting him behind the 8-ball;

Well, this really could be a chicken-egg thing. If he's not ready and they 100% throw him to the wolves, they could wreck his development. However, if they baby him and don't give him meaningful minutes at the position, he may not develop either. I can see a scenario on both ends of this, where Jost doesn't develop properly.

But again, this is why I believe Soderberg is a luxury to Colorado in regards to Jost's development. Not because Soderberg's the end-all of second line centers (he's not), but because he can fill that gap while Jost continues his development. I agree with your position that Jost didn't rise to the level of a NHL 2C last season. But if they don't play him, how will he ever have any chance of getting there?

But.

They need to put a quality NHL player on his wing. I'm not in favor of trying to develop Jost as 2C with Andrighetto and Compher on his wings.

 

[RockLobster]

Well, this really could be a chicken-egg thing. If he's not ready and they 100% throw him to the wolves, they could wreck his development. However, if they baby him and don't give him meaningful minutes at the position, he may not develop either. I can see a scenario on both ends of this, where Jost doesn't develop properly.

But again, this is why I believe Soderberg is a luxury to Colorado in regards to Jost's development. Not because Soderberg's the end-all of second line centers (he's not), but because he can fill that gap while Jost continues his development. I agree with your position that Jost didn't rise to the level of a NHL 2C last season. But if they don't play him, how will he ever have any chance of getting there?

But.

They need to put a quality NHL player on his wing. I'm not in favor of trying to develop Jost as 2C with Andrighetto and Compher on his wings.

My viewpoint, my longtime friend/compadre, is that there really isn't a "wrong" way to go about it, so long as the Avs address that second line. If they want Jost to be that 2C, then they ABSOLUTELY have to get him some better wing support than the likes of Andrighetto/Compher/Kerfoot/Kamanev/etc. Whether that's bringing in 1 winger like a Jeff Skinner/JVR/whatever, or even 2 (which I don't think is likely), or going the "Sign Stastny as the 2C" route and letting Jost play wing like they did with MacKinnon for the first couple of seasons. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Believe me, I understand why people may be apprehensive to signing Stastny, I just happen to believe that he's one of the players that will end up being the exception to the whole "30+ year old players fall off quickly" rule, because he's a really smart player, both offensively and defensively. Personally I think Jost would end up a better 2C if he played WITH Stastny for 1-2 seasons. That's why I'm personally on board with doing that.

I've got nothing against Tyson Jost. I think he's a fine prospect and I certainly hope that he can be a fixture on the Avs. The bottom line is, and it appears like you and I agree on this (one of the few times, eh? ) is that the Avs have to address that second line. They just have to. We can't waste this time period where we have Nathan MacKinnon on a steal of a contract, so if they don't do anything to address it, I feel like they're just going to be stuck spinning their wheels, or worse yet--they'll regress next season.