ATD2020 Draft Thread I

[ImporterExporter]

I'll be up until 5am EST so hopefully he comes through.

If you want to leave a list w/ someone I'm available or you can send it to somebody like VanIslander or Namba who are on the other side of the globe.

But honestly the gentlemen up now hasn't been signed on in 2+ days so it's possible he'll be skipped.

Pominville has until 903 AM EST to pick btw.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ottawa was LOADED. Many have said he was the best player in the world I'm not knocking him in any way. But everyone has said Morenz was better. Maybe Morenz was just as good defensively.

Agreed Ottawa was loaded.

But so were the Habs dynasties across the 50's, 60's and 70's. Leafs in the mid to late 60's. Islanders dynasty, Oilers, Pens mini, etc, etc. Heck you could argue Morenz's Habs teams were the most talented almost every year he was there.

I don't think from what I've read that Morenz was anywhere close to Nighbor defensively.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I would be interested in reading the reasons that 3 of the voters in the top 100 placed Nighbor ahead of Morenz. I’m genuinely curious, because like I stated before nothing I have ever read had given me reason to think anyone (historians, players etc..) ever viewed Nighbor as the superior player.

So I’m curious to see if I’m missing something in having Morenz a clear tier ahead.

Are some posters on here basing it on the fact that they feel Nighbor played a more important role on a better team? Even then, why would that make him individually a better player?

I'll explain my position at some point in greater detail:

But basically it revolves around a few key points.

1. Nighbor is the greatest defensive F of all time. This is not taken near seriously enough. He essentially was an entire defensive system and that was the key element to an early hockey dynasty. And he was the best defensive F of all time while probably being at or close to a Bobby Clarke level offensively.

2. Playoffs. Nighbor is the best pre-WWII playoff performer of all time. By a pretty wide margin. Morenz, at best, I'd consider average.

Morenz had more flair but Nighbor was a slightly better all around player IMHO from all the reading I've done over the last 5 years and change.

 

[VanIslander]

... I'm not knocking Nighbor in any way. But everyone has said Morenz was better. Maybe Morenz was just as good defensively too.

No.

Several quotes from their contemporaries have said Nighbor was better, not to mention Morenz himself.

And after 200+ history books I can't recall any raving about Morenz defensively but tons on Nighbor's pokecheck.

 

[tinyzombies]

No.

Several quotes from their contemporaries have said Nighbor was better, not to mention Morenz himself.

And after 200+ history books I can't recall any raving about Morenz defensively but tons on Nighbor's pokecheck.

Date the Morenz quote. He was ridiculously self-effacing as well and when he came into the league he might have been quoted about his hero. Batman might have slapped him in his face.

 

[tinyzombies]

No.

Several quotes from their contemporaries have said Nighbor was better, not to mention Morenz himself.

And after 200+ history books I can't recall any raving about Morenz defensively but tons on Nighbor's pokecheck.

King Clancy was Nighbor's teammate and he thinks Morenz is the best he EVER saw. He gushes over Nighbor in that book, but then in that one killer paragraph ...

 

[BenchBrawl]

Morenz was one of the greatest skaters in history, and by that I mean he was Top 10, with the Bobby Orr's, Paul Coffey's and Guy Lafleur's of the world. I have seen his edgework done in a pair of 1930's skates; he was unbelievable. Like Coffey, he gained speed when he turned and crossed legs.

I'm not ready to dismiss his star power just yet. It was enormous. His era was a bit of a mess, which creates a smokescreen and hides the causality of things. Why such and such, and not such and such. Why people are saying X, when the stats are saying Y and vice versa.

To convince me that Morenz deserved to be kicked out of the Top 15 would require a massive undertaking by way of a systematic study of the entire era he played in, which would take 5 years at a minimum to produce, and many more years for me to read and absorb. It would be faster if I did said study myself, but I was never particularly attracted by the 1930's, preferring to research the 1920's for some reasons.

All that said, the evidence that Nighbor was the better defensive player is not small. There's no case for Morenz there.

 

[VanIslander]

Date the Morenz quote. He was ridiculously self-effacing as well and when he came into the league he might have been quoted about his hero.

It was when Morenz was given the Hart in 1928. He said "I won the Hart trophy but Nighbor is the greatest player in hockey".

 

[tinyzombies]

It was when Morenz was given the Hart in 1928. He said "I won the Hart trophy but Nighbor is the greatest player in hockey".

That's a kid talking about an old pro. Are there other quotes like that? No. Also, that's how they spoke then, with sentimental deference.

Nighbor was at the end of the line when Morenz was getting started, and everyone focused primarily on Morenz's offense that defense became secondary. It's like saying a painter is good at framing the picture. I always thought that playing hockey too - it's great to have guys who make you feel safe, but sometimes there are superstars who score AND make you feel safe. Just look at how fans laughed when Crosby was mentioned for the Selke. I just don't buy it - there's many sources that back up Morenz's defensive game and he didn't have close to the supporting cast Nighbor had and he did it post-1925. Are you saying Morenz is the ONLY guy to say Nighbor was "the greatest"?

 

[VanIslander]

The problem with the HOH project was I had arguments prepared to cut and paste about Nighbor》Morenz but i couldnt present them because we were not allowed to talk about guys not on our immediate consideration list. So, against my vote, Morenz ridiculously got voted in 11th all time by a group of votes several of whom were huge Habs fans.

 

[VanIslander]

Are there other quotes like that? No.

There are several.

 

[tinyzombies]

The problem with the HOH project was I had arguments prepared to cut and paste about Nighbor》Morenz but i couldnt present them because we were not allowed to talk about guts not on our immediate consideration list. So, against my vote, Morenz ridiculously got voted in 11th all time by a group of votes several of whom were huge Habs fans.

I'm only interested in accuracy.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm only interested in accuracy.

Really? What about your hair cut?

 

[ImporterExporter]

And just to be clear, if Pominville gets skipped here nabby can pick twice and then we auto skip to Dreak.

That's the risk you take having a pick at the turn.

 

[BenchBrawl]

And just to be clear, if Pominville gets skipped here nabby can pick twice and then we auto skip to Dreak.

That's the risk you take having a pick at the turn.

Yes.

 

[tinyzombies]

Really? What about your hair cut?

they made me cut the back

 

[tinyzombies]

L'Autorite Nouvelle (Montreal), dimanche 3 avril 1927:

4-0 Ottawa (Nighbor one goal)

"Morenz fait une course de toute beauté, mais il est arrêté par Nighbor qui intercept la rondelle pour la passer a xxx."

"Morenz ran a beautiful race, but was stopped by Nighbor who intercepted the puck to pass it to xxx." - L'Autorité, dimanche 3 avril 1927

***

"Morenz qui joue une grande partie, mais peu secondé, vient encore prés de compter. Il est seul devant les buts du Ottawa. Il s'élance pour compter, mais Nighbor l'empêche avec son hockey."

"Morenz, who played a huge game, but couldn't parry, again came close to scoring. He was alone in front of Ottawa's goal. He shot to score, but Nighbor prevented him with his stick."

***

" Xxx monte vers le territoire du Tricolore, mais il est rudement mis en échec par Morenz qui lui fuit perdre
l'équilibre."

"Xxx mounted towards the territory of the Tricolore, but was roughly checked by Morenz, which made him lose his balance."

***

"Morenz travaille toujours avec ardeur sur l'équipe locale mais il est étroitement surveilllé par 2 adversaires qui ne le laissent pas d’un pouce."

"Morenz continued to work hard on the local team but he was closely watched by 2 opponents who did not leave him an inch."

 

[tinyzombies]

Sherbrooke Daily Record, mercredi 12 mars 1924 (not translated, original in English):

CANADIENS PUT UP GREAT GAME TO WIN TITLE
Outclassed Ottawa in Return Contest, Winning Series by Total Score of 5 to 2. (Associated Press dispatch)

OTTAWA, March 12. — Before a packed house, estimated at about 11,000 people, Montreal Canadiens last night defeated Ottawa Senators by a score of 4 to 2 and won the National Hockey League championship and the right to defend the Stanley Cup against the Western challengers. Local sport writers have no alibis to offer in regard to Canadiens 4 to 2 victory last night, when they won the two game series for the National Hockey League championship by 5 to 2 on the round. The accounts of the game in the Citizen and Journal agree that the erstwhile world’s champions were outskated, outplayed, and most of the time outbrained.

“Some of the more partisan supporters of the Ottawas will probably blame the referees for the loss of the game,” states the Citizen, “but that would be unfair to the new champions.

There are others who will attribute the downfall of one of the greatest teams that ever stepped out on ice, to inferior net guardianship on the part of xxx and weak play on the part of Captain Frank Nighbor, but these alibis are not sufficient. True, xxx had an off night, and Nighbor, after being clipped over the eye by xxx early in the opening period, appeared to lose his effectiveness, but the fact remains, Canadiens turned in a very superior brand of championship hockey and are entitled to the spoils of victory. The once great Ottawa hockey machine cracked under the strain.“

“Two better players than Xxx and Morenz on last night’s performance have seldom been seen in action here,” states the Journal.

“xxx played one of the greatest games of his career, and he was the hero of the game. Morenz followed him, and while a greater worker and more spectacular performer, it was the smashing work of Xxx that aroused the crowd to a frenzy of enthusiasm. Xxx outplayed Xxx, Morenz made Nighbor look very ordinary, and with these players shaded, Canadiens were bound to have the best of it. Ottawa wilted under the torrid pace set by Canadiens. They went down fighting, but they were most of the time a badly disorganized team. For once they met their masters."

“The same jinx that always follows presentations hovered around Frank Nighbor, who after he was presented with the Hart trophy, couldn’t get going.”

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

As time slips towards mid-day in The Land of Lingon, thoughts drift away from the possibility of a late rising after a night of "[h]ur länge skall på borden..." [usually not very "länge" if I have anything to do with it!] and more towards genuine concern as to whether or not the guy's okay.

In the meantime, I'm amusing myself by trying to work out what I'd do if I had his position. I don't think there are any obvious plays here.

So this must have been before my time started here but i was skimming old draft threads and saw somebody once drafted an arena!?!?!
What in the actual ****? I'd vote for that guy just for having the stones to pull that ****. That'd be like me drafting Gordon ****ing Bombay in round 24 here.

Last year, I saw a scenario where I would have been tempted to draft a non-player, non-hockey individual for the value that the person would add to the roster- with regards to getting the most out of one specific scoring-line UNDRAFTED Forward.

This year, I ALREADY see a scenario where I would again be tempted to draft a non-player, non-coach individual- although the one I have in mind is a more conventional Competition Sports Professional. The person could provide general help to the Coaching Staff... but I think would be best served helping to get the most out of [DRAFTED.]

 

[tinyzombies]

La Presse, 1884- (Montréal), mercredi 11 janvier 1928:

"L'on a pu constater hier soir que Morenz est fort supérieur a Nighbor. Le centre de l'Ottawa a travaillé dur, mais il a été loin d'ètre aussi brillant et aussie effectif que Morenz."

"We could see last night that Morenz is far superior to Nighbor. Ottawa's center worked hard, but was far from being as brilliant and as effective as Morenz."

 

[VanIslander]

The home press, after a win.

 

[The Macho King]

The home press, after a win.

In 1928, as Nighbor slowed down.

 

[The Macho King]

By my count @Pominville Knows is skipped at 9:03 AM ET (about 98 minutes).

 

[tinyzombies]

Quebec chronicle, 1898-1924, lundi 10 mars 1924:

"Frank Nighbor's poke-check, and brilliant goal-keeping by xxx were coupled with the heavy ice in keeping Canadiens out. But there had to be a break under the pressure and the deadlock was broken five minutes after the second period opened when Howie Morenz batted in the puck after a mele in front of the Ottawa goal."

 

[Habsfan18]

In 1928, as Nighbor slowed down.

Yes, that has to be kept in mind as well.