ATD2020 Draft Thread I

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Habsfan18

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Except that everyone said Morenz was solid at both ends and could get back in a flash a la Orr and went up and down the ice endlessly.

True. I wasn’t comparing Morenz to Ovechkin in an all-offense all the time type sense. I just meant that maybe there are similarities there between the pairs and how they were viewed by spectators. One was without a doubt flashier, whereas one was less exciting but steady in almost every facet.

I have Morenz ranked higher, in another tier above, based on everything I’ve read. Just wondering if their styles of play have a lot to do with how they were viewed. Actually I think it’s fairly obvious that was the case.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,872
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That was me in my first draft in ATD2011 when I drafted the Montreal Forum and protested when they refused to allow it.

I also tried and almost succeeded in getting both Gretzky and Lemieux in that same 40 teams draft. Thankfully the trade was vetoed but it took a lot of debates. I ended up making another trade and got Gretzky and Lidstrom.

And wasn't that the year I also drafted Georges Laraque?

All in all, a successful entry into the ATD world.

Hahaha! That's fantastic.

What grounds was it refused and how did you counter?
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Coffey was my favorite player in his early days, and I loved Gretzky too, so I saw a lot of Oilers games back then, in my teens.

Messier was often the most impactful player on the ice. He changed games in ways that don't show up on the stat sheet. He would check hard, pester, throw the opposition off their game. He played to win at all costs. Flames fans hated him and that made me smile. :)

When Coffey, then Gretzky left Edmonton, I still watched and the Oilers, and expected them to win the cup again because of Messier, Kurri and a couple of undrafteds I respected so much.

I saw little of Messier as a Ranger until the 1994 playoffs (other than games against the NYI and Devils, because MSG broadcasts of local rivalries were so entertaining).

As a Canucks fan, I loathed the Messier signing, raving like a madman that my friends should not cheer it, that it was not going to be good for Vancouver, I predicting that it would mean Linden gets shipped out (because that was Linden's team and i knew Messier's personality would not mesh - only Gretz would Mess defer to).

I have believed that Messier is top-10 all time. Researching history over the ATDs, I push that back to top-20.

He lacked creativity and his hockey sense was not on the level of many greats but with his strength, skating, stickhandling and shot, he was not at all handicapped. If Gretzky had never been in Edmonton, the city would still have two or three Stanley Cups, and Messier would have about 200 more goals scored because his role would have been different.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Coffey was my favorite player in his early days, and I loved Gretzky too, so I saw a lot of Oilers games back then, in my teens.

Messier was often the most impactful player on the ice. He changed games in ways that don't show up on the stat sheet. He would check hard, pester, throw the opposition off their game. He played to win at all costs. Flames fans hated him and that made me smile. :)

When Coffey, then Gretzky left Edmonton, I still watched and the Oilers, and expected them to win the cup again because of Messier, Kurri and a couple of undrafteds I respected so much.

I saw little of Messier as a Ranger until the 1994 playoffs (other than games against the NYI and Devils, because MSG broadcasts of local rivalries were so entertaining).

As a Canucks fan, I loathed the Messier signing, raving like a madman that my friends should not cheer it, that it was not going to be good for Vancouver, I predicting that it would mean Linden gets shipped out (because that was Linden's team and i knew Messier's personality would not mesh - only Gretz would Mess defer to).

I have believed that Messier is top-10 all time. Researching history over the ATDs, I push that back to top-20.

He lacked creativity and his hockey sense was not on the level of many greats but with his strength, skating, stickhandling and shot, he was not at all handicapped. If Gretzky had never been in Edmonton, the city would still have two or three Stanley Cups, and Messier would have about 200 more goals scored because his role would have been different.

Great post, thank you for the testimony !
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
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Interesting question:

Who was more important to Edmonton’s dynasty? Messier or Kurri?

Which one that if taken away, Edmonton would struggle the most without?

Is it clearly Messier? Or not that cut and dry? I feel like Kurri’s role on those Oilers teams are pretty underrated.
 

kruezer

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Apr 21, 2002
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Thanks for all the Morenz v Taylor et al answers.

I do think from the research I did during the top 100 project that Taylor’s a cut above Lalonde, but the difference in this draft is bigger than it should be. Granted people like me drafting Tretiak at 52 caused an unnecessary drop for a guy like Lalonde. I did find it interesting that the old timers C1958 (rip) had talked to in Montreal felt Lalonde was overrated though. Lalonde’s time in the OHA was really impressive and underrated though I think on the flip side.

As for Taylor v Morenz, is there a good repository on total playoff points for the PCHA and pre-merger Stanley Cups? I always give Taylor better PO credentials than Morenz and that helps close the gap for me between the two, but I’m curious if I’m giving Taylor too much credit and he didn’t significantly out score his peers in the POs.

Also I feel like there are some pre 1950s reports of people that took Taylor over Morenz right? I need to re look at the old all star teams. I don’t think anyone else was taken over Morenz though.

I find them interesting to compare as they are probably the first two major hockey ‘prospects’ though, I could be missing someone but they seemed to have the biggest junior careers, such as they were back then.

Also one of these years we should add a rover position to the teams to spice things up. I’d participate in that year for sure.
 

tinyzombies

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Dec 24, 2002
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True. I wasn’t comparing Morenz to Ovechkin in an all-offense all the time type sense. I just meant that maybe there are similarities there between the pairs and how they were viewed by spectators. One was without a doubt flashier, whereas one was less exciting but steady in almost every facet.

I have Morenz ranked higher, in another tier above, based on everything I’ve read. Just wondering if their styles of play have a lot to do with how they were viewed. Actually I think it’s fairly obvious that was the case.

Well, if many rave about Morenz's offense AND defense, maybe he's underrated defensively. Rarely does anyone here talk about his two-way game. Maybe he was as good as Nighbor defensively? He wasn't JUST flashier, he was strong at BOTH ends.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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I should add: Messier was a quasi-enforcer for Gretzky in that, when the opposing center hit or poked Gretz, then Messier would be matched up to bully the guy. Messier was Gretz's shield in that way. (Of course, dirty teams like Philly needed a stronger deterent, so Gretz carried a bona fide enforcer on his line at times.
 
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BenchBrawl

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I should add: Messier was a quasi-enforcer for Gretzky in that, when the opposing center hit or poked Gretz, then Messier would be matched up to bully the guy. Messier was Gretz's shield in that way. (Of course, dirty teams like Philly needed a stronger deterent, so Gretz carried a bona fide enforcer on his line at times.

Very interesting, had never thought or read about that. Make sense.
 

VanIslander

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Messier was suspended for 10 games for breaking the cheekbone on a dirty hit to a big bruising ATD undrafted Flame dman who had crosschecked Gretzky to the ice.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Yeah.

In order of company:
@ImporterExporter
@senior edler
@steve141

Three of the 32 Panelists.
There you go/now you know...
Dang! I should have had the courage to do so.

But I worried my list would be rejected, as, I ranked Soviets higher than others and pre-NHLers, specifically...

I had Cyclone Taylor in my top 10 because I felt the first quarter century of Stanley Cup hockey (1893-1918) ought to get more respect and not ve discounted so much.
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
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Well, if many rave about Morenz's offense AND defense, maybe he's underrated defensively. Rarely does anyone here talk about his two-way game. Maybe he was as good as Nighbor defensively? He wasn't JUST flashier, he was strong at BOTH ends.

It’s entirely possible that Morenz’s defensive game was underrated, but I would find it hard to believe that it was on the same level as Nighbor’s.

Can’t Nighbor make claim to being in the conversation as best defensive forward ever?
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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It’s entirely possible that Morenz’s defensive game was underrated, but I would find it hard to believe that it was on the same level as Nighbor’s.

Can’t Nighbor make claim to being in the conversation as best defensive forward ever?

Nighbor IS the best defensive forward ever IMO. I give him the edge over Clarke, Carbonneau and Gainey because an entire system was build around his defensive work and that system generated a dynasty.

There is no case for Morenz over Nighbor defensively.
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
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I would be interested in reading the reasons that 3 of the voters in the top 100 placed Nighbor ahead of Morenz. I’m genuinely curious, because like I stated before nothing I have ever read had given me reason to think anyone (historians, players etc..) ever viewed Nighbor as the superior player.

So I’m curious to see if I’m missing something in having Morenz a clear tier ahead.

Are some posters on here basing it on the fact that they feel Nighbor played a more important role on a better team? Even then, why would that make him individually a better player?
 
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ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
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I have the feeling we're gonna get our first skipped pick here.
@Pominville Knows is located in time zone UTC+1. So- it's closing in on 5:30am where he is. Can reasonably be expected to be asleep at this time.

He could think about his pick over breakfast AND lunch and still get it in on time.

If he drafts after a late-morning breakfast on a weekend, the selection might come through around 4am EST.
 

tinyzombies

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Dec 24, 2002
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Messier was suspended for 10 games for breaking the cheekbone on a dirty hit to a big bruising ATD undrafted Flame dman who had crosschecked Gretzky to the ice.

If it's that same guy who later... I was at that game and he was a wanted man that night. And there are references to his personal life that indicate he is not the greatest human being.
 
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tinyzombies

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Dec 24, 2002
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Nighbor IS the best defensive forward ever IMO. I give him the edge over Clarke, Carbonneau and Gainey because an entire system was build around his defensive work and that system generated a dynasty.

There is no case for Morenz over Nighbor defensively.

Ottawa was LOADED. Nighbor was the best in his time because players said so. But everyone said Morenz came along and was better. Maybe Morenz was just as good defensively too. Morenz was the fastest or second fastest guy in the league every year. And as we see on Youtube, he used crossovers to gain speed, which to me means he was agile. And we know his acceleration was incredible for that era. Didn't we just hear about Crosby's defensive game two years ago? Before then who knew that? And Morenz usually had the puck, which is the best way to defend anyway, unless you cough it up in bad areas of the ice, and nobody has said that about him.

Add to that Morenz liked physical play (there are sources for this and there is actual video of him going for someone's knee). Nighbor was a peacenik. Yes, he pioneered the hook check, but that probably became a standard move. Maybe Morenz used that too, but it's more likely he was faster and caught up so didn't have to. We know the move was still in vogue because Boucher used it. And Boucher was right up there speed-wise. The videos we have of Boucher (esp with the puck) show a speedster. If Morenz was faster than THAT, then he was blazing because Boucher looks like a contemporary player in those films.

There has probably been a lot of soul searching as to why Nighbor was the best in his time since his offense wasn't "flashy" - he might have been a guy who scored the goal that was needed and then played shutdown. But that doesn't preclude Morenz from being excellent on D too - esp with all those marathon OT games against physical teams.
 
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