ATD Chat Thread XVII

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VanIslander

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There is no official record of the Red Wings captaincy he was given that summer.

A historian writing about it in a book isn't "the official record". The player was Gord Pettinger, a 4-time Stanley Cup champion (with 3 teams), blackballed for insulting the cup. Conn Smythe said he would never stand in the same room with "that man". His career ended at age 27.
 

ResilientBeast

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Brady has to be the greatest winner of all time right?

He's played 20 seasons now as a starter and has made the super bowl 50% of the time, 7 wins out of 10 tries.

Even if you only count MJ on the bulls, 13 seasons 6 wins out of 6 tries.
 

tinyzombies

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There is no official record of the Red Wings captaincy he was given that summer.

A historian writing about it in a book isn't "the official record". The player was Gord Pettinger, a 4-time Stanley Cup champion (with 3 teams), blackballed for insulting the cup. Conn Smythe said he would never stand in the same room with "that man". His career ended at age 27.

I tried on a Detroit Cup ring from the 30s. I used to have drinks with a guy whose uncle was on those teams.
 

Johnny Engine

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Now hold on a second...

He last won the cup with the Bruins, who I think have a number of "unofficial" historical captains, am I remembering correctly?

It also looks like he was traded to Boston midway through the season following his last cup with Detroit, and played 24 more games the season after his last Bruins cup.

If the implication here is that he was immediately blackballed for his actions, that can't possibly be true. I remember reading something about Boston officially keeping an incomplete record of their past captains, but I can't find it right now and I'm not even fully certain that Boston was the subject.
 

VanIslander

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i never said immediately.

it was detroit the summer before being traded

this was preinternet, pretv. people still communicated by sending letters in the mail.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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210118091423-tom-brady-bucs-saints-super-tease.jpg



GOAT
♪Schadenfeude, schadenfreude
Tochter aus Elysium♫

I am made happy
by the people who were made unhappy
with the outcome of this contest.
 
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ResilientBeast

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This came up in the GOAT thread on HOH and I'd be curious what people think.

If Patrick Roy had Brady level success in the playoffs (10 finals appearances, with 7 Stanley cups and tack on 2 more Conn Smythes)

I know that this impacts a lot of other players but lets ignore the domino effect of this. Does he turn the top 4 into a top 5?

Or is he clearly the GOAT?
 

MadArcand

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Depends on how good those hypothetical teams of his would be. Average quality of '93 Canadiens... damn damn high, definitely top 3 at least. Average quality of the Colorado powerhouses? 5th.
 

Professor What

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This came up in the GOAT thread on HOH and I'd be curious what people think.

If Patrick Roy had Brady level success in the playoffs (10 finals appearances, with 7 Stanley cups and tack on 2 more Conn Smythes)

I know that this impacts a lot of other players but lets ignore the domino effect of this. Does he turn the top 4 into a top 5?

Or is he clearly the GOAT?

Personally, I'm not a fan of hypotheticals like that because I feel that people tend to put too much emphasis on the number of championships that players win in team sports in determining greatness. Now, I'm not suggesting that no importance should be attached to contributing to contributing to those championships, but it shouldn't be the be all end all that it is for some. I once had a friend get fighting mad at me because I wouldn't agree with him that Henri Richard was the greatest center in Habs history, simply because of the 11 Cups. Pointing out the greater personal impact of players like Beliveau and Morenz, or even that Beliveau won the Cup 10 times made no impact, because he was so blinded by that number.

Now, I'm not making that accusation in this particular case; I only bring it up to demonstrate the general tendency. But, that tendency's existence makes me respond with this question: If Roy would be in a top five, why isn't Beliveau now? Okay, I know he doesn't have the number of Conn Smythes, but he's generally considered to be the obvious winner in 1956, before officially winning it in 1965, not to mention the fact that he captained half of the ten champions he played for. On balance, I think that's fairly comparable to the theoretical Roy resume here. And as for ignoring the domino effect, can we do that? There are too many possibilities to allow that. How many other players have their number of Cups run up? That's dependent partially on whether the trade to Colorado still happens. How does it affect players on teams Roy doesn't play for? Does Lemieux end up not winning a Cup because Roy's Habs took it in 1991 and 1992? Man, that's messy.
 

VanIslander

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Some people are so gaga over Roy's 3 Conn Smythes and 4 Stanley Cups that they CANNOT FATHOM how a non-cup, non-playoff-mvp Dominik Hasek could possibly be better?!

Gasp, Brady must be the best QB ever, eh.
 

The Macho King

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Some people are so gaga over Roy's 3 Conn Smythes and 4 Stanley Cups that they CANNOT FATHOM how a non-cup, non-playoff-mvp Dominik Hasek could possibly be better?!

Gasp, Brady must be the best QB ever, eh.
Hasek has a Cup though? Two actually, but one as the starter.
 

The Macho King

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Ha, ha. Okay I'll give you one (0.5 in merit eh - FAR from his prime;). Detroit. Gee, those were weird years.
He certainly wasn't *quite* peak of his powers, but he was .915 in the regular season and won over 40 games, and was .920 in the postseason with 6 shut outs. I'd still consider that part of his prime (although probably the tail end of it).
 

VanIslander

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I think you give Hasek more credit than I do.

i was NEVER NEAR as impressed with his play in Detroit as I was with his play in Buffalo, despite better defensemen.
 

Professor What

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He certainly wasn't *quite* peak of his powers, but he was .915 in the regular season and won over 40 games, and was .920 in the postseason with 6 shut outs. I'd still consider that part of his prime (although probably the tail end of it).

An argument in Hasek's favor related to that is that for most goalies, that would be an excellent prime season. Yet, I don't consider it prime for Hasek, because he was so very, very good earlier in his career that even those numbers felt pedestrian for him, simply because it was him.
 
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The Macho King

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I think you give Hasek more credit than I do.

i was NEVER NEAR as impressed with his play in Detroit as I was with his play in Buffalo, despite better defensemen.
I mean that makes sense because in Buffalo he was a f***ing cheat code, while in Detroit he was just "really good goalie guy". And that really only lasted for a year so I'm not extending it to his entire tenure there. I'm just saying he wasn't a passenger on that Detroit team - he was a contributor (although not to the extent Roy was in his Cup runs).

For the record, the Hasek/Roy debate is a confusing one, and I waffle on it. Roy gets a ton of credit for the 10 straight OT wins, but so much of that was a product of circumstance. One of the interesting things about the Bolts run last season was how Vasi did in OT for the Bolts (went to 8 OT games I think, went 6 and 2, but also played 213 minutes of OT hockey and only gave up 2 goals in that span), and how that readjusted my thinking a bit of the 93 run.
 

VanIslander

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The point is: In Hasek's 7-year dominant peak (forgetting his years before in Czechoslovakia and later in Detroit)...

His ZERO Conn Smythes vs. 3 Roy trophies shows who was better, doesn't it?...
Uh,... no it doesn't.
 

ResilientBeast

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Personally, I'm not a fan of hypotheticals like that because I feel that people tend to put too much emphasis on the number of championships that players win in team sports in determining greatness. Now, I'm not suggesting that no importance should be attached to contributing to contributing to those championships, but it shouldn't be the be all end all that it is for some. I once had a friend get fighting mad at me because I wouldn't agree with him that Henri Richard was the greatest center in Habs history, simply because of the 11 Cups. Pointing out the greater personal impact of players like Beliveau and Morenz, or even that Beliveau won the Cup 10 times made no impact, because he was so blinded by that number.

Now, I'm not making that accusation in this particular case; I only bring it up to demonstrate the general tendency. But, that tendency's existence makes me respond with this question: If Roy would be in a top five, why isn't Beliveau now? Okay, I know he doesn't have the number of Conn Smythes, but he's generally considered to be the obvious winner in 1956, before officially winning it in 1965, not to mention the fact that he captained half of the ten champions he played for. On balance, I think that's fairly comparable to the theoretical Roy resume here. And as for ignoring the domino effect, can we do that? There are too many possibilities to allow that. How many other players have their number of Cups run up? That's dependent partially on whether the trade to Colorado still happens. How does it affect players on teams Roy doesn't play for? Does Lemieux end up not winning a Cup because Roy's Habs took it in 1991 and 1992? Man, that's messy.

1) I did say let's ignore the domino effect
2) Looking at Roy's resume he's already as voted by the HOH group the second best playoff player of all time. He becomes IMO easily the greatest in this hypothetical. But is such playoff dominance enough to topple anyone in the big 4. In the top 100 project my final ballot was Gretzky - Howe - Orr - Lemieux. With 3 more titles I'd have a hard time putting him below Orr.
3) 7 Titles in a 20+ team league being voted playoff MVP 5 times in total is more than just cup counting for resume padding.
 

Professor What

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1) I did say let's ignore the domino effect
2) Looking at Roy's resume he's already as voted by the HOH group the second best playoff player of all time. He becomes IMO easily the greatest in this hypothetical. But is such playoff dominance enough to topple anyone in the big 4. In the top 100 project my final ballot was Gretzky - Howe - Orr - Lemieux. With 3 more titles I'd have a hard time putting him below Orr.
3) 7 Titles in a 20+ team league being voted playoff MVP 5 times in total is more than just cup counting for resume padding.

I know you said to ignore the domino effect, and I acknowledged that in my previous post. But like I said, I simply can't ignore the domino effect. To me, ignoring that is little different than putting a player in a time machine to a different era. It's saying that I'm going to look at one guy with one set of standards and everyone else with another. That's one of the biggest reasons I don't find this particular kind of hypothetical very useful.

As for the playoff performance part, I'm not about to contend that he's anything but one of the strongest playoff performers in history. That still doesn't change that I think that championships are given way too big a role in determining personal greatness.

For number three, yes, there were more teams, but Beliveau's accomplishments came in an era when the admittedly few teams there were were as stacked as teams have ever been. Every night, you're competing against rosters full of future Hall of Famers. Yet, he still piled up Cups in a way almost no one else ever has. He played with the likes of Doug Harvey, Maurice Richard, and Jacques Plante, and I'd still say he was the greatest player on those teams. That's more than just Cup counting too.

I didn't mean to get this deep into this anyway. I really only meant to point out that I don't think hypotheticals like this are very instructive about players or their resumes. The biggest point of my original reply was to point out how very messy this is. It leads down too many winding paths that branch off in too many different ways. I mean, by the same token, I could ask what would have happened had Hasek played on teams of the quality that Roy did. I could argue that he might have five or six Cups and a string of Conn Smythes and then present the same question about that what if. It's too much of a Pandora's Box.
 

Professor What

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Well, I've managed to get a bit of creative writing done for the first time in a while this afternoon, dealing with a couple of new characters I've created. The character narrating the story is originally from Russia and plays hockey, so I've already had legitimate reason to mention Valeri Vasiliev, Vladislav Tretiak, Valeri Kharlamov, Valeri Bure, and Pavel Bure. It feels good both to get the writing done and to find an excuse to mention a bunch of hockey players in it.
 
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MadArcand

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I had a weird dream tonight about ATD. Namely of Dreakmur's roster post, which had Jagr as LW, Robitaille as RW and 3rd line of X - Sidorkiewicz - Sidorkiewicz...
 
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