ATD Chat Thread XVII

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Habsfan18

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On one hand, the fan in me is obviously thrilled. On the other hand, we just lost out on our chance to win the Lafreniere lottery and a potential franchise saviour only to most likely get swept or lose convincingly to the Lightning or Flyers in round 1. Not to mention this will make Bergevin go into next year thinking we have a legitimate playoff team. Never mind the fact that we finished 24th overall and were closer to the worst team in the league than we were a legitimate playoff spot.

This was more about Pittsburgh losing than the Habs winning. The Habs didn’t play all that great at all. The Pens and their star players just put in a piss poor effort. And Carey Price being vintage Carey Price helped of course.
 

VanIslander

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Always go for the Stanley Cup.

Buffalo and Florida made unexpected Finals runs, and their fan bases were proud and have fond memories of it.

I understand it's hard for Habs fans who are versed in its dynasties to appreciate being the underdog!

But doing a lot with less is something of great value.

If they as the 12th seed beat the #1 seed, that will have been a great year.

Go Habs go!

I trust in Weber & Price. :) I am all in.
 

VanIslander

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Note: The LAST team that should get Lafreniere is Pittsburgh. Ugh.

The Pens purposely tanked for Mario (well documented: they traded away talent and delayed prospect development), tanked for Crosby and Malkin. Then they won cups yes, but that yo-yo franchise deserves no respect. Other franchises have won cups without doing that (e.g., Boston, Detroit).
 
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Johnny Engine

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I will hold off on writing my season epitaph for the time being, but I'm going to leave that last post there because I meant all of it.
 

VanIslander

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If you have the goaltending, the defense and the coaching, then you beat a team with star forwards, weak defense and shaky goaltending.

This has happened multiple times in hockey history.

It IS a team game.

The Soviet club teams beat NHL teams numerous times in the Super Series because of better team work.
 
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VanIslander

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People forget how good Habs coach Julien is. In Boston he surpassed Art Ross as the winningest coach in Bruins history.

The Pens Sullivan, who also coached the Bruins (to a disappointing 1st round exit after a great regular season - losing his job), rolled the same pathetic lines from the scrimmages. I - as a Marleau fan - endured THREE of the four Pens scrimmages prior to the trip to Toronto for the play-in round. I had a ton of questions: Why was it always lines 1 and 2 vs. lines 3 and 4? Why weren't lines altered? (Crosby's intermission exit affected the top lines, but the unproductive 3rd line was never tweaked.)

After watching the scrimmages I thought: shut down Malkin and Crosby and this team is toast. ... ... And indeed it was.

Fire Sullivan.
 
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ImporterExporter

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Pittsburgh tanked for Mario, yes. They did not tank for 87. It was a f***ing lottery, post lockout. They didn't even have a f***ing season the year prior to drafting Sid. How could they have tanked? I guess a few years prior when there wasn't a cap and Pitt was on the verge of bankruptcy they hatched a scheme to land a then 15 year old Crosby. They predicted the lockout and that they would then beat out 20 something other teams to win the sweepstakes. So tired of seeing actual grown ups push this bullshit narrative.

The revisionist history, on a sub history forum is comical. You're making up as much bullshit as the American media. Not a good look. It's faux reasoning meant to make people feel better about being bitter.

How many #1 overall picks has Edmonton had in just the last decade? What have they done with them?

Pitt got bounced by a team with a much better goalie and depth players who actually showed up to play hockey.

Considering Sid was one of the few Pens players to actually put the puck in the net this series, laying blame at his feet is again, comical. Malkin was completely MIA. Pathetic effort for 4 games Kris Letang? Absolute bum. Murray, outside of game 2 was average at best. The defense is a train wreck outside of Marino who was a marvelous acquisition by JR. Every single Pens player should be on the block at this point, other than 87. Every single one.

Sullivan has ran his course. The league adapted to what he was doing in 16 and 17 and he never felt the need to counter it. That's either arrogance or incompetence. He's the biggest problem along with the complete collapse of Matt Murray = worst glove hand in the NHL and the league knows it. Sullivan has absolutely no answer for teams that trap him. None.

Pittsburgh getting Laf likely won't happen (12% odds). And even if it does, it would be their first overall in 15 years. You actually have people that would be MORE angry w/ Pitt getting 1OA and not Edmonton who's had, what, 4 or 5 of them in the past decade?

A lot of the teams in the running for 1OA don't really deserve to be there, but hey, blame the NHL. They're the ones who set it up.

I'll take Laf on Pitt just to see the petulance unfold around here.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Pittsburgh getting Laf likely won't happen (12% odds). And even if it does, it would be their first overall in 15 years. You actually have people that would be MORE angry w/ Pitt getting 1OA and not Edmonton who's had, what, 4 or 5 of them in the past decade?

I'll take Laf on Pitt just to see the petulance unfold around here.
With each passing year, we have to consider the increasing probability that the Edmonton brain(less) trust just might be harmless masturbators.

Pittsburgh are probably NOT harmless masturbators. [Or at least they never seem to stay on the stick for too long.]

I'd rather not see the biggest guns go to folks who have the knowledge, power, and willingness to aim and shoot them straight at me...
 

VanIslander

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Thanks for reminding us guys that Edmonton has as much a sorted history as Pittsburgh.

Both should go **** themselves and get squat in the draft.
 

ImporterExporter

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Never forget today was the day we learned that a poorly run franchise for many years (financially by owners who had no clue what the f*** they were doing, read on it) who tanked once to get a generational talent, and otherwise lucked into their stars (Jagr, Crosby, Malkin) with no real data/proof to suggest otherwise, is some sort of Evil Empire ala the NY Yankees, Dallas Cowboys, etc. I laugh as it wasn't even until the cap era Pittsburgh could compete on a financial level with the majority of the league. Do people not remember how BAD Pittsburgh got in the late 90's and early 2000's? More piss poor management up top, even during the early 90's run. They couldn't land anyone.

Let's also not forget that Pittsburgh, is, by most accounts, one of the birthplaces of organized and pro hockey in the United States. There is more hockey history in Pittsburgh, dating back well over 120 years, that the disdain they receive for simply tanking once (as if they're the only team who's ever pulled that stunt, yawn) is beyond me. The only logical reason I can see for Pitt being so hated by fans of teams that aren't even rivals, is out of jealousy/spite.

People act like they wouldn't bend someone over to have had Crosby on their favorite team the past decade and a half. I don't care who you are, you're flat out lying if you say otherwise. As explained and easily identified, if you think without emotion, Crosby landing in Pittsburgh had absolutely nothing to do with tanking. Hockey didn't even have a season the year prior to 87 being drafted and unlike draft's today, EVERY team in the league had a shot at Sid. So, honestly, STFU with that drivel. It's a non starter and you know it. If you want to entertain that the league simply put Pittsburgh in the #1 envelope to save them from going to Kansas City, fine. That's your prerogative.

Malkin was a consolation prize. Sure, a HOF consolation prize, but again, there is absolutely no data to suggest Pittsburgh tanked. They were an awful, awful hockey team who lucked into a top 2 pick on ping pong. This isn't baseball or pre lottery hockey where you can actually tank and assure yourself the #1. This is basic math.

And since Malkin/Sid got going they haven't missed the playoffs. Ever. 3 Cups. 4 Finals appearances. That's a nice ride, in any era. Their window is simply closing rapidly, if not completed closed as far as winning a title goes. Have there been some flops (this year, last year, a few times in previous years)? Yep. No doubt. Happens. Dynasties don't last or endure like they used to. And honestly, as cool as it would be to see your team win 5 in a row, it won't happen again. Ever. Parity is a good thing.

Of course I was envious of Chicago when they won their 2nd and 3rd Cups. But I never really disliked them. They're a midwest team. No real tie to Pittsburgh in any way. Yeah, it stunk hearing Toews this, Toews that, while the Pens suffered under Disco Dan Bylsma during the prime years of Sid/Malkin. Injuries obviously ruined a few years in there but such is life.

The only 2 teams I openly root against in this league are Philly and Washington. Rivals, nothing more.

Now, if you want to talk about a city that has bungled years of having strong rosters, while not being able to close the deal a bunch of times in the finals, we can open the floor for discussions on Philly.
 
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VanIslander

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... a poorly run franchise for many years (financially by owners who had no clue what the f*** they were doing, read on it) who tanked...
Agreed.

ImporterExporter said:
... Crosby landing in Pittsburgh had absolutely nothing to do with tanking.
And 9/11 was just a few guys with box cutters...

The Bruins, Caps and Flyers are always trying to compete. Pittsburgh is a clown of a franchise in comparison.
 

ImporterExporter

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Agreed.


And 9/11 was just a few guys with box cutters...

The Bruins, Caps and Flyers are always trying to compete. Pittsburgh is a clown of a franchise in comparison.

Boston, Washington and Philly. All 3 major urban centers, with ownership groups that had money and were willing to spend it (pre cap era). Do you not understand the differences between those 3 population centers and Pittsburgh? Especially in the economic sense.

The funny thing is since Pittsburgh won their first Cup in 91, those 3 teams have a grand total of 2 championships. Pittsburgh has 5. Shrug.

Pittsburgh didn't have the ownership to compete for the duration of their existence prior to Sid! THAT'S THE POINT VAN.

It literally wasn't until Pittsburgh was taken over by Mario (thankfully he had advisors telling him to convert salary into ownership stake) and the cap implemented that Pittsburgh had a group above the players that actually gave a damn about icing a strong team, consistently. Beyond Mario saving Pittsburgh as a player, his role as an owner and philanthropist in the region is why he's so revered. There are very few players in any pro sport who have meant as much as Mario has meant to Pittsburgh. You can probably count them on one hand.

Pittsburgh not competing wasn't because the fans sucked. Hell, it wasn't even always about having mostly shitty players (though that was the norm until Mario came along). If you have piss poor ownership, you'll have piss poor on ice performances. Fans won't come. Why should they?

It's no different than my disdain for the Pirates (MLB). You have one of the most beautiful ball parks in the world, with a gorgeous skyline. You have a city that has and will embrace baseball. But Bob Nutting is what he is. A rich guy who uses the Pirates as an ATM (in part because there is no cap and the big teams simply slip the smaller clubs money at the end of the year).

And lastly, you clearly think the league rigged Crosby to Pittsburgh. As I said, even if you believe they tanked the year prior to the lockout, it wouldn't even guarantee them the #1 given it's a lottery. You can't dispute that. It's literally fact. Mathematically.

So you then believe the league simply decided to give Pittsburgh Sid in that envelope. Pr-determined.

And if that's the case. Fine. The end result is you're simply pissed he ended up on a team you didn't/don't like. Don't pretend it had anything to do with tanking. One, Pittsburgh wouldn't have been the only team doing it, and 2, lottery. There were other teams in that bubble getting plucked out. Far more than there are now btw.

And would you then believe that the only time the league rigged a player going somewhere?
 

VanIslander

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No.

Pittsburgh is no more privileged than Edmonton.

Which is to say... OF COURSE they have had privileges!

Vancouver never has. The NHL actively talked Edmonton out of trading Gretzky there. Minnesota hasn't been. They were robbed of first overall by a two-team conspiracy.

Hockey history has A TON of skeletons in the closet. Only, no one seems to care after a few decades...
 

ImporterExporter

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No.

Pittsburgh is no more privileged than Edmonton.

Which is to say... OF COURSE they have had privileges!

Vancouver never has. The NHL actively talked Edmonton out of trading Gretzky there. Minnesota hasn't been. They were robbed of first overall by a two-team conspiracy.

Hockey history has A TON of skeletons in the closet. Only, no one seems to care after a few decades...

I think what you're saying is true of all sports where money changes hands.

Though I will say the New England Patriots have benefited more than any other pro franchise as far as collusion between a league/franchise goes IMO. That team has been outed on so many occasions and those occasions are only what we know about. And then you fine a a man (Bob Kraft), 1 million dollars for this, Bill Belichek, 500k for that, as if those totals actually impact people worth billions, with a b, and a coach who's easily into 9 figures worth of career earnings at this point. Lose a draft pick? Wow, you're really deterring corrupt behavior!

Small price to pay for 2 decades of literally filming other teams illegally. I don't even have to get into all the other BS over the years.

Baseball literally allowed steroids to flow freely through the game after the 94 lockout to produce record offensive numbers. Fans were leaving in droves and not surprisingly, guys started hitting 60, 70 homers in a year. Trash.
 
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ChiTownPhilly

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Now, if you want to talk about a city that has bungled years of having strong rosters, while not being able to close the deal a bunch of times in the finals, we can open the floor for discussions on Philly.
As much as I slag on Pittsburgh, it is impossible for me to disagree with this(!)

Some things I like about Pittsburgh:

1) Mario Lemieux
2) William Steinberg
3) Andrew Carnegie is better than his reputation
4) "Dirty Dozen:" A 'Hardman' challenge for cyclists

[I'd also add Honus Wagner, but (even) I'm not that old...]
 
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Johnny Engine

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Talent is only one of the three pillars of a successful team. I know my leafs over-value it too.
I suppose it depends on whether you're specifically referring to offensive talent, talent at the top of the roster, raw athletic ability, however you want to define it.

In the ATD, we put down these totally hypothetical rosters on paper and talk about how we think they'll do in terms of chemistry, balance, versatility in different types of games, and while we can't know if we're right about any of this stuff, there is enough evidence that certain guys made their teams better, served different functions on and off the ice, etc. So "on paper" can definitely mean more than just a team's raw talent level.

I keep reading stuff from journalists and social media chatterboxes that this year's Leaf's team is a powerhouse on paper, and that it's just baffling that they don't play like one. But is it really that hard to look at the roster and not see serious weaknesses just everywhere outside the top few forwards? Of course it isn't. I think the Babcock firing gave a lot of people an easy scapegoat for why the team was in the lower reaches of the playoff picture, and I've had a growing annoyance over that all year. It was strange seeing the season nearly cancelled over the pandemic and not feeling all that bothered about how the season would play out, and up until about midnight Newfoundland time I was gearing up to unload on every flaw I kept seeing glossed over.

Then they had a really fun few minutes and the season's still going. I guess I'll just enjoy the ride for a bit, hey?
 

ImporterExporter

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As much as I slag on Pittsburgh, it is impossible for me to disagree with this(!)

Some things I like about Pittsburgh:

1) Mario Lemieux
2) William Steinberg
3) Andrew Carnegie is better than his reputation
4) "Dirty Dozen:" A 'Hardman' challenge for cyclists

[I'd also add Honus Wagner, but (even) I'm not that old...]

Mario Lemieux is the reason a kid from the middle of nowhere PA started watching hockey. The closest hockey rink to my home was a solid 30 minute drive. Almost nobody played beyond recreational. So Mario's impact was very, very big, at least in a regional sense. For my money he's the most naturally gifted player I've ever seen live (didn't see Orr live so I might change my tune as I have Bobby #1 all time). What he could do, at his size, with that damn puck was art.

The big difference I see when looking back at the Gretzky (Mario's chief rival), Mario, and Sid career arc it's that Mario lacked the same type of drive that Gretzky and Sid posses.

I'll never forget early in 87's career, people got on him about not being able to finish, he wasn't much of a goal scorer, etc. You know that pissed him off. And I'll be damned if he didn't go out and win a goal scoring title, while also losing out on a likely 60 goal year in 2010-11. He had to mature extremely quickly and I think he did that. The incessant whining as an 18 year old had to fade quickly as he was being looked to become THE guy. And to his credit the switch flipped when the C went on. His mouth shut and he got to work.

I still think Sid is the most well rounded player in the game (McDavid is the best offensive player, and Bergeron/O'Reilly the best defensive players) or at the very least in the conversation. You don't maintain that kind of level for as long as Sid has without working really bleeping hard.

That's one of the main reason I respect the hell out of him, beyond just playing for the team/city my family hails from. Zero drama. Just grind. He doesn't play the game like a traditional superstar. He does A LOT off the ice as well that gets very little press, which is just his style. I think (hope) once he retires, and people allow emotion to leave their minds, that Crosby will be remember very fondly for his contributions to hockey. He had A LOT (some unfairly) heaped on his shoulders as the league's poster child in 2005 and I'd say he's very largely done a fantastic job representing the game, especially in the age of intense drama and so much negative/political noise.

Carnegie is indeed a man of great lure and I believe it earned. His contributions to education are massive.

It's interesting you bring up Honus Wagner.

The Pirates were Pittsburgh's team all the way up through the 70's. My dad will tell you the story of being at school and keeping score on the blackboard with his class during game 7 of the 1960 WS, which was an all time great contest. They shut down school while the game was being played and listened to it on the radio. My dad was 11 at the time. That was a huge win for the city. Mantle said it was the only game he ever cried over.

Sadly Pittsburgh's baseball relevance faded when FA created the have's and have not's. And they now have a penny pinching billionaire owner who gives zero f***'s about fielding a competitive roster. So sad, especially in that ballpark.
 

Johnny Engine

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I don't know what I want from my team going forward. I haven't known what I wanted from them for most of the year, and there was something appropriate and poetic about this joke of a season getting wiped out by force majeur, as if none of it ever happened. But the NHL went and got a playoff together anyway, so here goes.

Teams that change their general manager every 2 or 3 years are loser franchises. Like the Buffalo Sabres. You can't convince me there's a single person in Buffalo with a good plan to bridge the gap between a rebuilding team with a lot of draft picks, and a consistent contender. So they try out Tim Murray, and Jason Botterill, and now Kevyn Adams. That's a loser franchise.
The Leafs hired Kyle Dubas so he could run the team for a long time. He's an intelligent guy and a hockey lifer, and he's young enough to learn and get better every year. He's also largely responsible for constructing a mess of a roster.

I do not wish Lou Lamoriello was still the general manager. He's directly responsible for around half of the big problems the Leafs have right now. I don't wish Mark Hunter got the job instead of Dubas - I've seen no evidence that he'd do any better. And I don't buy a lot of the narratives that the most committed Dubas-haters like to push. But there are a lot of moves he's made that he doesn't get enough flak for, and moves he made that do draw criticism, for the wrong reasons. I'll probably unload on those a little later. I don't have a blog or any other kind of platform to free-associate on - this thread is as close to that as anything else.
 

Say Hey Kid

War, children, it’s just a shot away
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What is the most underrated genre of rock music? I think it's popular mainstream rock including hard rock, heavy metal, and progressive. I'll make a list of some bands I don't think are bad and post where Rolling Stone has them ranked in their top 100 artists. Now that I'm done according to Rolling Stone The Police are better than all these bands! :laugh:

AC/DC - 72
Black Sabbath - 85
Bob Seger - Unrated!
Dire Straits - Unrated!
Judas Priest - Unrated!
Ozzy Osbourne - Unrated!
(solo artist) Pete Townsend - Unrated!
Rush - Unrated!
Van Halen - Unrated!
 

ImporterExporter

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I really want to see Laf end up in Pittsburgh, Toronto or Edmonton.

That may end up frying the HFB servers once and for all. :laugh:

In all reality, can Nashville or Minnesota get a franchise player for once?!?
 
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