ATD 2021 Procedure (the convoluted & technical brainstorming that GMs can feel free to ignore)

[Hawkey Town 18]

So I thought about the idea of moving balls from one tier to the other. Two issues: 1: It doubles the work because I not only have to track who has additional balls in the tier at hand, but also who has zero balls in that tier. 2: If too many GMs move out of the same tier, we could end up with a number of GMs smaller than the number of picks that are supposed to be assigned in that tier. 4 picks, but only 3 GMs with balls in tier – that's not viable.

The second issue can be easily solved by changing up the order in which you draw the tiers (i.e. if a lot of GMs move out of the 20-24 tier just draw that one right after 1-4 are decided), but it doesn't matter with the first issue...We don't want to make a lot of extra work for you.

If my memory is correct, in the past rewards have been an extra ball in a tier, which was done last year, and several years ago GMs were given the ability to decide their exact draft position (not including the top 4), but this includes each GM submitting a list of picks in order of preference to be used in the case of ties.

 

[Theokritos]

I would suggest we give GMs who voted 4/6 times one additional dice (that's what it's actually going to be instead of balls) in a tier of their choice, GMs who voted 5/6 times two additional dices in a tier of their choice (no splitting, it just makes things more complicated without a real need for it) and GMs who voted 6/6 times get three additional dices. The tier with the top picks is off limits though.

Other than that, one dice per GM in each tier.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I would suggest we give GMs who voted 4/6 times one additional dice (that's what it's actually going to be instead of balls) in a tier of their choice, GMs who voted 5/6 times two additional dices in a tier of their choice (no splitting, it just makes things more complicated without a real need for it) and GMs who voted 6/6 times get three additional dices. The tier with the top picks is off limits though.

Other than that, one dice per GM in each tier.

This sounds good to me, with the caveat that picks 1-4 is it's own tier that is not eligible, i.e. everyone gets a single die.

If no one objects to the above, the next step would be coming up with a timetable for the qualifying GMs to declare which tier they want their extra dice. This should be fairly simple, my suggestion is to give 1 day from when sign-ups are officially closed as we won't know the tiers until that time.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I would suggest we give GMs who voted 4/6 times one additional dice (that's what it's actually going to be instead of balls) in a tier of their choice, GMs who voted 5/6 times two additional dices in a tier of their choice (no splitting, it just makes things more complicated without a real need for it) and GMs who voted 6/6 times get three additional dices. The tier with the top picks is off limits though.

Other than that, one dice per GM in each tier.

I'm in favor of this sort of setup. Not super complicated

 

[Theokritos]

This sounds good to me, with the caveat that picks 1-4 is it's own tier that is not eligible, i.e. everyone gets a single die.

If no one objects to the above, the next step would be coming up with a timetable for the qualifying GMs to declare which tier they want their extra dice. This should be fairly simple, my suggestion is to give 1 day from when sign-ups are officially closed as we won't know the tiers until that time.

Agreed.

The basic size of a tier should be 4 picks throughout and from there we adjust if necessary, depending on the number of teams. I suggest the following (the numbers from 20 to 28 stand for the number of teams):

20: 5 tiers of four
21: 4 tiers of four + 1 tier of five
22: 4 tiers of four + 1 tier of six
23: 3 tiers of four + 1 tier of five + 1 tier of six
24: 6 tiers of four
25: 5 tiers of four + 1 tier of five
26: 5 tiers of four + 1 tier of six
27: 4 tiers of four + 1 tier of five + 1 tier of six
28: 7 tiers of four

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Agreed.

The basic size of a tier should be 4 picks throughout and from there we adjust if necessary, depending on the number of teams. I suggest the following (the numbers from 20 to 28 stand for the number of teams):

20: 5 tiers of four
21: 4 tiers of four + 1 tier of five
22: 4 tiers of four + 1 tier of six
23: 3 tiers of four + 1 tier of five + 1 tier of six
24: 6 tiers of four
25: 5 tiers of four + 1 tier of five
26: 5 tiers of four + 1 tier of six
27: 4 tiers of four + 1 tier of five + 1 tier of six
28: 7 tiers of four

Maybe this is just me, so others please chime in, but I'd rather have the tiers be as close in size to each other as possible over having as many 4 team tiers as possible. Like this...

22: 3 tiers of four + 2 tiers of five
23: 2 tiers of four + 3 tiers of five

26: 4 tiers of four + 2 tiers of five
27: 3 tiers of four + 3 tiers of five

Or if you want to keep the no. of tiers more consistent (maybe this would also be less work for you?)...
26: 4 tiers of five+ 2 tiers of six
27: 3 tiers of five+ 2 tiers of six
28: 2 tiers of five+ 3 tiers of six -or- 2 tiers of 4 + 4 tiers of five

 

[Theokritos]

Maybe this is just me, so others please chime in, but I'd rather have the tiers be as close in size to each other as possible over having as many 4 team tiers as possible.

Good point.

22: 3 tiers of four + 2 tiers of five
23: 2 tiers of four + 3 tiers of five

26: 4 tiers of four + 2 tiers of five
27: 3 tiers of four + 3 tiers of five

This version is indeed better than mine.

 

[ted2019]

This is really unfair to those who either don't have time to participate every year ( like myself, only have done this one other time) and those who are doing this for the 1st time.

 

[ResilientBeast]

This is really unfair to those who either don't have time to participate every year ( like myself, only have done this one other time) and those who are doing this for the 1st time.

How is it unfair?

There is no real advantage to a draft spot, just people who put the effort in years previous to vote and keep this going and want to not have to execute 1-2 pick swaps to get into a location they'd prefer drafting from.

Edit: And even then it's just upping your odds a bit. We had a draft where we almost straight up picked our spots based on the previous year's voters.

 

[Theokritos]

This is really unfair to those who either don't have time to participate every year ( like myself, only have done this one other time) and those who are doing this for the 1st time.

It's obviously a bonus, but don't you think it's a rather modest advantage? To clarify, here's how it would work:

Tier 1: Picks 1-4
The dice is rolled once for each GM. The ones with the highest numbers get the picks. Same chance for everyone.

Tier 2: Picks 5-8
The dice is rolled once for each GM plus a second, third and fourth time for reward-eligible GMs who choose this tier. So a higher chance for those GMs to get a pick in this tier, but a) it's still the dice that decides, and b) who says that picking in a specific tier is actually an advantage as far as winning the ATD is concerned? Some GMs are just tired that coincidence put them in the same echelon for x time in y years and this gives them a better chance to pick in another area for a change.

Tier 3: Picks 9-12
Same as tier 2.

Etc.

Each GM eligible for the reward can only choose one tier for it to be applied.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

This is really unfair to those who either don't have time to participate every year ( like myself, only have done this one other time) and those who are doing this for the 1st time.

IMO the real reward is giving GMs a chance to pick in a different (not better) spot than the year(s) before, which doesn't really apply to the above two groups.

As far as being unfair, I think throughout the years it's been shown that the ATD can be won from any position (and probably even more so in a draft that allows trades).

That being said, if enough people agree with you, I'd be fine with including Rookies and non-participants from last year in the 4 out of 6 group (i.e. 1 extra die in a tier).

 

[Dreakmur]

There is literally zero advantage to any draft position. Each one has its pros and cons, but none are better than any other.

Certain positions do impact your ability to get a particular player, but that doesn’t impact your ability to build a good team.

The reason we even came up with the “choose your draft position” idea was because a few GMs were consistently getting the same draft positions.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There is literally zero advantage to any draft position. Each one has its pros and cons, but none are better than any other.

Certain positions do impact your ability to get a particular player, but that doesn’t impact your ability to build a good team.

The reason we even came up with the “choose your draft position” idea was because a few GMs were consistently getting the same draft positions.

And to the extent that there is an advantage, it is just spots 1-4, which nobody will have an advantage at using the method presented.

 

[ted2019]

It's obviously a bonus, but don't you think it's a rather modest advantage? To clarify, here's how it would work:

Tier 1: Picks 1-4
The dice is rolled once for each GM. The ones with the highest numbers get the picks. Same chance for everyone.

Tier 2: Picks 5-8
The dice is rolled once for each GM plus a second, third and fourth time for reward-eligible GMs who choose this tier. So a higher chance for those GMs to get a pick in this tier, but a) it's still the dice that decides, and b) who says that picking in a specific tier is actually an advantage as far as winning the ATD is concerned? Some GMs are just tired that coincidence put them in the same echelon for x time in y years and this gives them a better chance to pick in another area for a change.

Tier 3: Picks 9-12
Same as tier 2.

Etc.

Each GM eligible for the reward can only choose one tier for it to be applied.

Thanks for clarifying it. I think between all the answers, I read it incorrectly.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Rookies and non-participants should get the maximum reward. It was always like this IIRC. More importantly it should be like this.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I would suggest we give GMs who voted 4/6 times one additional dice (that's what it's actually going to be instead of balls) in a tier of their choice, GMs who voted 5/6 times two additional dices in a tier of their choice (no splitting, it just makes things more complicated without a real need for it) and GMs who voted 6/6 times get three additional dices. The tier with the top picks is off limits though.

Other than that, one dice per GM in each tier.

Thinking about this some more, this system still assumes GMs want early picks which is not always true. And in the case that a GM wants a pick in the last tier, having one or two extra die literally gives them no reward at all (this is what originally sparked my "move a ball" idea).

Is there anything that can be done to reward GMs that want late picks without making a lot of extra work for you?

Maybe use a random list generator instead of dice? That way all you'd have to do is run each tier once while adding and removing a few names each time.

 

[Theokritos]

Thinking about this some more, this system still assumes GMs want early picks

How does it assume that?

And in the case that a GM wants a pick in the last tier, having one or two extra die literally gives them no reward at all (this is what originally sparked my "move a ball" idea).

You mean because it's quite like that he will be drawn to another tier before the last tier is assigned?

 

[Theokritos]

Alternative idea: I run a little lottery to determine an order among the GMs to be rewarded. The order determines who has priority in picking a tier. First the GMs eligible for a full reward are put in sequence by chance, then the ones who voted 5/6 times, then the ones who voted 4/6 times last year.

Rookie GMs could be put in the first group (full reward) as suggested by VanIslander.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

How does it assume that?

Just because you are drawing the earlier tiers first.

You mean because it's quite like that he will be drawn to another tier before the last tier is assigned?

I mean because a GM that choses to have 3 dice in the last tier has the same odds of their pick making it to the last tier as a GM that did not get any reward (they both have 1 die in each of the other tier drawings).

 

[Theokritos]

Just because you are drawing the earlier tiers first.

I mean because a GM that choses to have 3 dice in the last tier has the same odds of their pick making it to the last tier as a GM that did not get any reward (they both have 1 die in each of the other tier drawings).

Right. I mean, I could do the lower tiers first, but that would just move the issue from one end to the other. As of now, I think the idea from my last post is the most practical one.

I do like the aesthetics of your proposal to move balls from one tier to the other and I started a trial-run, but once you include a gradation the number of GMs who might opt out of a tier gets very high and I ended up with too few GMs quickly, even though I started with the least popular tier.

 

[rmartin65]

Honestly, I'm down with whatever @Theokritos is game to do. He's the one spending the time to do this.

 

[Theokritos]

Honestly, I'm down with whatever @Theokritos is game to do. He's the one spending the time to do this.

Thanks. Constructive criticism and input is always welcome though. We still have time to iron this out.

 

[rmartin65]

Thanks. Constructive criticism and input is always welcome though. We still have time to iron this out.

Oh, for sure. I'm not trying to shut anybody down, just saying that, when push comes to shove, what you decide to do should be ok with everyone.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

@Theokritos What if you keep your original system, but after 1-4 are determined you randomly determine the order in which the other tiers are selected?

So could be 20-24 first, 10-14, second, etc.

This seems like it wouldn’t be much extra work

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm fine with this process as long as we have it fleshed out by early next week. If we're going this route we need to make sure everyone has a few days at least to put their preferences in for the dice.

The drop dead date for sign ups is 01/14.