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Art Ross thread (2018/19)

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Fourier

Fourier

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Pancakes said:
If you're on a worse team the offense is more likely to run through you if you're "the guy". When an Oiler gets the puck who are they looking to pass to? When a Lightning player gets the puck it's like gosh golly gee who do I pass to Kucherov or Stamkos or Point or Hedman or etc etc.

Mcdavid also plays 22:44/game versus 19:12/game for Kucherov. Two ways to look at that. Mcdavid gets more ice time to get points, but Kucherov is fresher in the ice time he gets.
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I understand that things are not completely black or white as to who is more privileged. Points are not a linear function of TOI and it is not always the case that better line mates mean more points. Nuge was a perfect example of this when Hall was around. His individual point rate rose away from Hall because when he played with Hall he deferred to Hall. But in the case of Kucherov and McDavid, both players get sufficiently many touches that they will get points on the vast majority of goals scored when they are on the ice. I don't have the stats right now but I'd be surprised if this is not the case. McDavid's inclusion rate is probably higher but TB generates more goals. The question is which product is closer to optimum.

But as I said, this is not to take anything away from Kucherov. It is simply a factor that will make McDavid's task to try and catch more difficult. The issue of who is the "better" player for me is more empirical.
 
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Pancakes

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Fourier said:
I understand that things are not completely black or white as to who is more privileged. Points are not a linear function of TOI and it is not always the case that better line mates mean more points. Nuge was a perfect example of this when Hall was around. His individual point rate rose away from Hall because when he played with Hall he deferred to Hall. But in the case of Kucherov and McDavid, both players get sufficiently many touches that they will get points on the vast majority of goals scored when they are on the ice. I don't have the stats right now but I'd be surprised if this is not the case. McDavid's inclusion rate is probably higher but TB generates more goals. The question is which product is closer to optimum.

But as I said, this is not to take anything away from Kucherov. It is simply a factor that will make McDavid's task to try and catch more difficult. The issue of who is the "better" player for me is more empirical.
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If Kucherov does win he'll be in pretty exclusive company in that apart from Jamie Benn there hasn't been a non first round pick to win the Ross since Trottier did it in 79. The other non first round pick to win in recent memory was St. Louis who of course went undrafted. So only 2 guys have done it since Trottier did it in 79.

Of course if Mcdavid does it he'd have three in a row which has not been done since Jagr. Both would be special feats.
 
Fourier

Fourier

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Pancakes said:
If Kucherov does win he'll be in pretty exclusive company in that apart from Jamie Benn there hasn't been a non first round pick to win the Ross since Trottier did it in 79. The other non first round pick to win in recent memory was St. Louis who of course went undrafted. So only 2 guys have done it since Trottier did it in 79.

Of course if Mcdavid does it he'd have three in a row which has not been done since Jagr. Both would be special feats.
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Gretzky was not a first round pick. In fact, he was non drafted. :naughty:
 
Future GOAT

Future GOAT

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Pancakes said:
Mcdavid also plays 22:44/game versus 19:12/game for Kucherov. Two ways to look at that. Mcdavid gets more ice time to get points, but Kucherov is fresher in the ice time he gets.
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Or you can look at the proper way in that Kucherov's linemates are more efficient finishers/scorers than McDavid's and their efficiency allows him (and them as well) to score more with less time on ice needed.
 
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AvsFan29

AvsFan29

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Kucherov pointless in 2 straight games. This is where the Avs players take hold and run away with this thing. Kucherov was just a streaky pretender.
 
Future GOAT

Future GOAT

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AvsFan29 said:
Kucherov pointless in 2 straight games. This is where the Avs players take hold and run away with this thing. Kucherov was just a streaky pretender.
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With that comment I take it you're still smarting over that one guys post a page or two back?
 

illpucks

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No points for Kucherov. So predictable. Almost like Thomas Vanek having a lead on Sidney Crosby.

Joke league. 3rd straight Ross for McDavid.
 
koyvoo

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I’m not even sure why someone would have an issue the clear best offensive player in the league winning 3 straight scoring titles.

It wasn’t boring when Gretzky and Lemieux dominated the Art Ross for 15 years. It was incredible to watch.

It wasn’t boring when Jagr did it. It was amazing to witness.
 
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AvsFan29

AvsFan29

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Future GOAT said:
With that comment I take it you're still smarting over that one guys post a page or two back?
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Yah it's a joke. Every time a player has a small slump, someone says something along those lines. Nice catch. I was expecting a ton of people to start freaking out at me. Lol
 
AvsFan29

AvsFan29

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koyvoo said:
I’m not even sure why someone would have an issue the clear best offensive player in the league winning 3 straight scoring titles.

It wasn’t boring when Gretzky and Lemieux dominated the Art Ross for 15 years. It was incredible to watch.

It wasn’t boring when Jagr did it. It was amazing to witness.
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Who has an issue with him winning?
 
North Cole

North Cole

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Jan 22, 2017
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daver said:
The general rise in scoring is the biggest factor. His PPG of 1.15 was 3rd best in 16/17, this year it barely breaks the Top 20, and McDavid's league best PPG of 1.22 in 16/17 would good for 14th best this year.

If McDavid is on another tier from Kucherov (and everyone else), then he has plenty of opportunity to show it in the form of clearly better production. Kucherov has equalled him in the past 2 1/2 seasons.
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daver said:
I would not be surprised to see Kucherov's production decrease again where he loses his Art Ross lead and/or McDavid surges ahead after his team is done for the year.

Your willful ignorance of looking at raws PPGs and points with zero context continues to be amusing. What a coincidence that again almost everyone else in the Top 50 scorers are having dream seasons while McDavid is the only one who is better than last year.

If McDavid ends up at the top of the scoring lead while his team is in contention, he will get full marks from me.
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#Amusing :laugh:

TIL that transplanting "Raw PPG" from one year to the next is "context"....

However, when I cite McDavids PPG through a stretch of 45 games at the 'end' of last year and compare it to his PPG through the FIRST 45 games this year (while hes behind only one or two players in PPG).....its "wilfull ignorance" and "ignoring context". Transplanting RAW PPG from one season to the other also does not create context... you call me out for it, do the same thing, and throw in a one liner about league scoring being higher to cover it up. His PPG placements are all comparable over the last three years regardless of the convienient rise in the scoring environment. Top 3 each year.

And by top 3, I mean - 1/1/2 (currently). Context though!

My initial comment was to show that unlike what you and this Ageless fellow believe, McDavid does not only show up for the back half of the season.

You two think hes going to score some absurd 1.8ppg for the last 30 games? Cause that's the only way this schtick holds up in a "higher scoring league"... not only will there have to be a noticeable increase in his PPG in the back half, he must also be 'out of the playoffs'.

Spin Doctor.....

Ageless said:
Why wouldn’t Mcdavid be trying?
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He, like Crosby, is saving himself for the playoffs. Just doing enough to keep us near the bubble. When he hits the playoffs, lookout man... hes doing things just like his idol. Rest during the regular season is important....

....:sarcasm:
 
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Tobias Kahun

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daver said:
The general rise in scoring is the biggest factor. His PPG of 1.15 was 3rd best in 16/17, this year it barely breaks the Top 20, and McDavid's league best PPG of 1.22 in 16/17 would good for 14th best this year.

If McDavid is on another tier from Kucherov (and everyone else), then he has plenty of opportunity to show it in the form of clearly better production. Kucherov has equalled him in the past 2 1/2 seasons.
Click to expand...
I guess you agree Crosby was never on another level than the players around him.

Or does that not apply cause grace period and stuff.
 
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AvsFan29

AvsFan29

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NHL2004ISDABOMB said:
i hope duchene screws him old team tomorrow and Mcdavid gets his first 4 or 5 point night
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I hope he scores too. He only becomes a more valuable trade target, and his chances of getting a good contract elsewhere get higher. Duchene scores / Avs win.
 
TheAngryHank

TheAngryHank

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May 28, 2008
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McHockeyfan91 said:
I guess you agree Crosby was never on another level than the players around him.

Or does that not apply cause grace period and stuff.
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The most worry some part of it when McDavid eclipses Crosby's numbers are all the bridges in Pittsburgh and their new found uses.
 
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