Around the League: It Smells Like Hockey!

[HoweHullOrr]

1. Well, considering you were wondering why people were making the "assumption" in the first place, I feel the entirety of my response was correct/significant enough.

2. You're following up your critique of my answer with a bunch of what-ifs, though, which was exactly my point in the first place - The Oilers haven't done anything to warrant a change in peoples' expectations.

3. You talk about our past 10 years as if they're at all comparable, when the only similarity is that both teams were mismanaged for a while. The Leafs corrected this 4 years ago, but we still had to prove ourselves - even after drafting Matthews - before anyone actually took us seriously. The Leafs had a top-5 pick in 2008, yes, but they weren't doing the long-term draft-and-develop process that the Oilers have been mired in for the last decade, and Schenn and Kadri, as 5th- and 7th-overall picks, respectively, shouldn't have had the same expectations of turning around a sinking franchise that multiple 1st-overall picks in consecutive years should have.

We went in a different direction, failed, and then corrected. The Oilers have just been a steady cluster**** for 10 straight years.

Could the Oilers suddenly turn it around? Sure, they definitely have some pretty fantastic pieces on their squad. But if you're going to ask why people assume they'll suck, the obvious answer is because they haven't given anyone any reason to believe they won't suck. We could at least point to new management, new philosophies, and new talent as reasons why we would quickly reverse our fortunes - What are the Oilers pointing to, other than McDavid and Draisaitl?

I've numbered some of your sentences/paragraphs for organizational purposes. My responses will be in-line with your points and the numbered items.

1. I was trying to be polite, so phrased it as "wondering". I guess being polite is the downfall here. But, I really wasn't wondering at all.
2. * Two years ago the Oilers were in the playoffs and went to the 2nd round. So your statement about my use of "what- ifs" is erroneous. I merely supplemented (i.e. an additional point) this fact (*) with the idea that if they made the playoffs this year, that would be playoff appearances in 2 of the last 3 years. For some people, that would end the debate. I suspect that won't end it for some here though.
3. We have drafted quantity eight (8) top eight overall picks since 2008. And our record of futility goes further back than the Oilers. We have been bad since the first CBA up until 2 years ago. If people can make themselves feel better by saying we are a little better than the Oilers, then OK. In my mind our accomplishments are not strong enough and there's too much similarity for us to be making this is a point of accomplishment or pride.

Other relevant general points:

a. Defining when a rebuild starts is an user definable parameter. Its a rather arbitrary process and is typically used here (HF) to support an agenda/narrative. Chicago for example still had big contributions from players like Keith, Seabrook and Crawford who were drafted years before they drafted Kane and Toews. Kadri, Reilly, etc. are our equivalents in this regard. We like the vast majority of the teams are the same in this regard.
b. I would think it would behoove us to wait until we've had some actual, real playoff success before we knock others & talk smack. Even then, I won't be denigrating other teams or their fans because I can't see what is to be gained by such behaviour.

 

[Warden of the North]

Man, the big heavy Pacific teams of dominance 4-6 years ago sure are crumbling hard in the new, quick, NHL.

 

[Menzinger]

Man, the big heavy Pacific teams of dominance 4-6 years ago sure are crumbling hard in the new, quick, NHL.

Yep.

Those big bodied guys are being left behind fairly quickly. Think it’s a combination of 1) power forwards often have the shelf life of milk left outside on a hot summers day, and that systems wise they’re having a hard time keeping up with quicker bodies

LAs fall has been particularly hard

 

[Budz22]

Can someone bring these Habs back down to earth?

 

[IBeL34f]

I've numbered some of your sentences/paragraphs for organizational purposes. My responses will be in-line with your points and the numbered items.

1. I was trying to be polite, so phrased it as "wondering". I guess being polite is the downfall here. But, I really wasn't wondering at all.
2. * Two years ago the Oilers were in the playoffs and went to the 2nd round. So your statement about my use of "what- ifs" is erroneous. I merely supplemented (i.e. an additional point) this fact (*) with the idea that if they made the playoffs this year, that would be playoff appearances in 2 of the last 3 years. For some people, that would end the debate. I suspect that won't end it for some here though.
3. We have drafted quantity eight (8) top eight overall picks since 2008. And our record of futility goes further back than the Oilers. We have been bad since the first CBA up until 2 years ago. If people can make themselves feel better by saying we are a little better than the Oilers, then OK. In my mind our accomplishments are not strong enough and there's too much similarity for us to be making this is a point of accomplishment or pride.

Other relevant general points:

a. Defining when a rebuild starts is an user definable parameter. Its a rather arbitrary process and is typically used here (HF) to support an agenda/narrative. Chicago for example still had big contributions from players like Keith, Seabrook and Crawford who were drafted years before they drafted Kane and Toews. Kadri, Reilly, etc. are our equivalents in this regard. We like the vast majority of the teams are the same in this regard.
b. I would think it would behoove us to wait until we've had some actual, real playoff success before we knock others & talk smack. Even then, I won't be denigrating other teams or their fans because I can't see what is to be gained by such behaviour.

Only thing I'm touching here is what I've bolded - You asked a question and I answered it. I'm not one to go around poo-pooing other teams or fan-bases for the hell of it, and I never put the Oilers down simply to make myself feel better about the Leafs. Having said that, the answer to the question you posed is that they've been bad for a long time, and haven't done anything, really, organizationally to change how they operate. Until they do, I see no reason why anyone would think they wouldn't continue to be mired in their current stage. The Leafs were in the same stage as the Oilers, were mocked mercilessly for it (both internally and externally) as the laughing stock of the League, and then finally changed course and committed a complete organizational and philosophical overhaul.

You seem to be looking at this from quantity over quality standpoint, though - I'm looking at the current states of these franchises, how they're run and operated, and don't see any comparison between these two teams in the slightest, outside of having some of the top young players in the game on them.

Again, the Oilers could turn it around - They have some awesome pieces there, as everyone knows. Considering how they've run themselves over the past decade, though, I don't see any reason to expect that turnaround. Your what-ifs could happen, but people shouldn't be banking on them at this point. The Leafs, meanwhile, made drastic on- and off-ice changes from the top of the organization down, have shown steady improvement over the past 3 seasons, and look to be on the rise again this year, currently sitting at 1st in the League in this young season.

Call me when Edmonton gets a Shanahan.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Only thing I'm touching here is what I've bolded - You asked a question and I answered it. I'm not one to go around poo-pooing other teams or fan-bases for the hell of it, and I never put the Oilers down simply to make myself feel better about the Leafs. Having said that, the answer to the question you posed is that they've been bad for a long time, and haven't done anything, really, organizationally to change how they operate. Until they do, I see no reason why anyone would think they wouldn't continue to be mired in their current stage. The Leafs were in the same stage as the Oilers, were mocked mercilessly for it (both internally and externally) as the laughing stock of the League, and then finally changed course and committed a complete organizational and philosophical overhaul.

You seem to be looking at this from quantity over quality standpoint, though - I'm looking at the current states of these franchises, how they're run and operated, and don't see any comparison between these two teams in the slightest, outside of having some of the top young players in the game on them.

Again, the Oilers could turn it around - They have some awesome pieces there, as everyone knows. Considering how they've run themselves over the past decade, though, I don't see any reason to expect that turnaround. Your what-ifs could happen, but people shouldn't be banking on them at this point. The Leafs, meanwhile, made drastic on- and off-ice changes from the top of the organization down, have shown steady improvement over the past 3 seasons, and look to be on the rise again this year, currently sitting at 1st in the League in this young season.

Call me when Edmonton gets a Shanahan.

well they do have a Nicholson?

 

[Al14]

Can someone bring these Habs back down to earth?

Why? Destined for mediocrity by finishing higher in the standings. Love it!

 

[Gabriel426]

but it doesn't matter if McDavid is a different level.
there were Gretzky v Lemieux comparisons/debates all the time.
McDavid can o a lot of things that Matthews can't. but i think Matty can (or will)do things that McDavid can't. it's why one can debate it.

Mario and Wayne are at the same level but McD and Matthews ain’t.
Truth is if McD and Matthews switch teams. The Leafs will still be 6-1 but I doubt Matthews can have pts in 8 of Oilers 9 goals.

Everytime I see McD vs Matthews reminds me of how some kept saying Toews Vs Sid debate before Pens winning back to back Cups, like how Toews got 3 Cups, Sid got 1, Sid might can score more but Toews is a better all around player.....

 

[BertCorbeau]

Mario and Wayne are at the same level but McD and Matthews ain’t.
Truth is if McD and Matthews switch teams. The Leafs will still be 6-1 but I doubt Matthews can have pts in 8 of Oilers 9 goals.

Everytime I see McD vs Matthews reminds me of how some kept saying Toews Vs Sid debate before Pens winning back to back Cups, like how Toews got 3 Cups, Sid got 1, Sid might can score more but Toews is a better all around player.....

I don't quite think Matthews is on McDavid's level but I think the gap between the two players is closer to Gretzky/Lemieux rather than Crosby/Toews

 

[firstemperor]

Awful giveaway by Parayko with 6s left to lose the game for the Blues just now against the Habs.

If it happened to a Leaf D in those circumstances, they wouldn't hear the end of it.

 

[Amadeus]

Wow way to blow a game, Parayko.

 

[Gabriel426]

I don't quite think Matthews is on McDavid's level but I think the gap between the two players is closer to Gretzky/Lemieux rather than Crosby/Toews

I agree, I was just making an example, that’s all. If anything, I think Matthews is Yzerman during the whole Wayne Vs Mario era.

 

[Gabriel426]

Why? Destined for mediocrity by finishing higher in the standings. Love it!

I know, as a true Habs hater, you want the Habs to just miss the playoffs by one point and draft 15

 

[Al14]

I know, as a true Habs hater, you want the Habs to just miss the playoffs by one point and draft 15

Perfect!

 

[1specter]

Habs are a hilarious team. They always find a way to overachieve with a mediocre roster and thwart any attempt at a proper rebuild. Just keep spinning their wheels it's hilarious.

 

[Cleetus]

Habs are a hilarious team. They always find a way to overachieve with a mediocre roster and thwart any attempt at a proper rebuild. Just keep spinning their wheels it's hilarious.

bet Bergevin thinks they are now Contenders, they will trade there first round pick for some plug lol.

 

[Stephen]

Mario and Wayne are at the same level but McD and Matthews ain’t.
Truth is if McD and Matthews switch teams. The Leafs will still be 6-1 but I doubt Matthews can have pts in 8 of Oilers 9 goals.

Everytime I see McD vs Matthews reminds me of how some kept saying Toews Vs Sid debate before Pens winning back to back Cups, like how Toews got 3 Cups, Sid got 1, Sid might can score more but Toews is a better all around player.....

Having 8 points on 9 of the Oilers goals isn't so much an accomplishment but more a sign no one else around you is scoring.

 

[Stephen]

Habs are a hilarious team. They always find a way to overachieve with a mediocre roster and thwart any attempt at a proper rebuild. Just keep spinning their wheels it's hilarious.

The Leafs started out pretty well during the Matthews tank season. Usually these hot starts cool off.

I knew Detroit was going to be sort of a bad team but they look like the Dead Things this year.

 

[AcerComputer]

Awful giveaway by Parayko with 6s left to lose the game for the Blues just now against the Habs.

If it happened to a Leaf D in those circumstances, they wouldn't hear the end of it.

The reality is that there is no Dman in the NHL that can survive the Toronto market. Because people don't really watch these players every week, and only look at the stat line and think let's trade Gardiner. When the player coming back has his own warts.

 

[Zybalto]

The reality is that there is no Dman in the NHL that can survive the Toronto market. Because people don't really watch these players every week, and only look at the stat line and think let's trade Gardiner. When the player coming back has his own warts.

Yea, If the usual whipping boys on D (Hainsey/Zaitsev/Gards) ever did this, it would be used against them every GDT. Parayko is a good player but these things happen.

Im also not a big fan of our broadcasts sometimes focusing the camera in on a dman after a goal against, especially when its not thier fault (which happens more than it should). Millen is brutal on analysis sometimes as well.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Having 8 points on 9 of the Oilers goals isn't so much an accomplishment but more a sign no one else around you is scoring.

Exactly. In his first four games, McD had 4 goals and 5 assists, and the rest of the team had 1 goal without him.
In his first four games, Matthews had 7 goals and 3 assists, and the rest of the team had 10 goals without him.

I'm sure if the rest of the Leaf forwards were replaced from my beer league, Hyman would be part of just about every goal scored.

 

[1specter]

The Leafs started out pretty well during the Matthews tank season. Usually these hot starts cool off.

No they didn't, they looked decent but struggled to win games due to lack of scoring and Bernier sucking. However they did pick it up in November/December and going into January I believe they were only 4 pts out or something like that. Then JVR got injured and that's all she wrote.

Montreal has actually looked good defensively, managed to score and controlled the play in most of their games, in addition to Price looking good again. You're not wrong though that there's a good chance they cool off.

And yes Detroit is a special kind of awful this year.

 

[Gabriel426]

Wings just tanking and hope for Jack Hughes.
As for the Habs, as long as Price plays solid, they will have a chance every night but is that what they want though?

 

[Razz]

Y'all see Laine's Fortnite tag is public? The dude grinds.

Anyone have his stormshield.one link? I'm super curious. (Yes I am a Fortnite addict. )

 

[Razz]

Habs are a hilarious team. They always find a way to overachieve with a mediocre roster and thwart any attempt at a proper rebuild. Just keep spinning their wheels it's hilarious.

Gotta admit though, they aren't nearly as bad as people thought. They have a pretty nice top 6 that is young and work well as a team. I hope a real rivalry starts up again between the Leafs and Habs. Looks like the one line Bruin team aren't going anywhere. They are going to get shredded on the road.