Around The League 2021-22 season - part IV

[JrFischer54]

While I think Lou has done an okay job over there on the Island, I don't think much he's done is really burning it down - has he traded his 1st round pick 2 years in a row, yes, but the team's a veteran team, this is what veteran teams should be doing, you're not going anywhere keeping the pick. Now if he trades his 1st this year, that's bad, but the two drafts before Lou got there were bad and I doubt he made massive changes to the scouting.

With conte in your scouting department you might as well trade the pick.

 

[JrFischer54]

because of GM's choices too. They didn't have to move specifically him to solve their issues. There are always other options, other trades, other contracts and players to move. If Toews was shed, it was a conscious choice by Lou that this was the best move to make to manage their roster. I'm not saying what else could have been done but surely there were other things.

For instance. I'm not sure it was an option, but in the end if I'm the isles I'd rather have Toews right now than Anders Lee.

How New York Islanders Could Have Kept Devon Toews - Drive4Five

In 2020, the fate of the New York Islanders changed forever when they traded Devon Toews. Here is how they could have avoided this.

drive4five.blog

This is true that it boils down to the choice made by the gm. I still maintain that if towes was elite before he was traded he 1 wouldn’t have been traded and 2 he would’ve garnered a lot more then two second round picks. Last being dealt to the avs certainly helped his cause.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

If he was traded from the avs today would his return be better then 2 second rounders?

Elite 1st pairing dman in his prime signed through 2023-24 at less than half of what he’s worth. He’d get a 1st+.

 

[JrFischer54]

Elite 1st pairing dman in his prime signed through 2023-24 at less than half of what he’s worth. He’d get a 1st+.

Yeah agreed so I don’t think a lot of teams thought he was elite certainly not Lou “the greatest all time” when he was dealt he might have had some nice advanced stats people drool over but he imo became elite after the trade.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Yeah agreed so I don’t think a lot of teams thought he was elite certainly not Lou “the greatest all time” when he was dealt he might have had some nice advanced stats people drool over but he imo became elite after the trade.

I do not give one half of a shit what other teams thought of him. Take your L, Toews was elite before he was traded.

 

[JrFischer54]

I do not give one half of a shit what other teams thought of him. Take your L, Toews was elite before he was traded.

Lol so the going rate for elite d talent like him are two second rounders got it lol

Ps no he wasn’t

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Peat

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

If he was traded from the avs today would his return be better then 2 second rounders?

Not sure why this is even a question, his return when Lou traded him should've been more than that.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Peat

Not the best hire imo, but the NHL loves recycled coaches.

 

[Hisch13r]

Not sure why this is even a question, his return when Lou traded him should've been more than that.

I'm really not surprised he wasn't moved for more. He didn't have any real name value among more "traditional" hockey people and was massively undervalued by them. That's why they should've recognized just what they had in him and moved just about anything else instead. I mean literally the following year they moved out Leddy and his 5.5 mil deal. Toews signed for 4.1.

Not the best hire imo, but the NHL loves recycled coaches.

Kind of just seems like they're getting a better Bowness. With the drop off in talent up front after the top lin (outside of a Seguin or Benn rebounding) I don't think it's an awful idea to just let that top line play their game and have a coach that provides a lot of structure to get the most out of the minimal talent through the other 3 lines

 

[OmNomNom]

NHL GMs are afraid to gamble on new coaches and would rather go w the known quantities

 

[guitarguyvic]

No one said doom about good teams other than the guy you’re defending because he doesn’t try to understand other people’s arguments.

It’s budgeting. That involves planning, sacrifices, problem solving, luck, keeping a lookout of new solutions, etc.

Traditionally top contenders have cap crunch problems, it’s just part of the process. Some handle it better than others.

It’s a bad thing, like flat out terrible management, when you get into cap trouble without being good. That’s why Jim Benning has gotten mentioned, he’s a prime recent example of that.


Cap crunched teams don’t keel over. They doesn’t burst into flames. They don’t lose all their best players. They do lose players though. They can’t sign non-minimum salary UFAs to fill in holes in the roster either. They often play with a reduced roster during a season because they can’t afford call-ups. They can’t accrue cap space during the season if they cap out.

The recent Rangers recent cap crunch helped get Gorton fired, he was criticized for the lack of depth on a team that lacked depth because it had 20m of dead cap space. They had a bunch of buyouts dragging them down.

In the next three seasons after 2022-23 the salary cap can only go up a maximum of 1m a year. So the highest the Cap could be in 2025-26 is 85.5m.

The Rangers are still squeezed hard right now and it’s going to get worse as their kids on ELC become RFAs.

They likely can’t keep any of their very helpful TDL acquisitions. Not being able to keep Copp would particularly hurt but the rumor is he wants as big a payday as he can get.

If Strome will take a discount they might be able to keep him, if he won’t do that then even he will be hard to keep. I think he might take a AAV discount for more term though.

Kakko needs a deal and as does Georgiev (or they need a new back-up goalie) this off-season.

Next season Miller, Chytil and Lafreniere need new deals. They will have ~3.4m of extra space as the last of the dead cap finally frees up. (That dead space included 12 years of a cap hit from the Brad Richard contract buyout in 2014. Truly an End of an Era.). Lindgren needs a new deal for 2024-25.

The Rags have a bunch of big contracts. They have 6 players making 49.8m which leaves 32.8m (w/ a 82.5m cap) for the rest of the ~17 players on the roster. That’s where budgeting comes in.

Again, how is this different than a multitude of other moves/decisions GM’s are responsible for? “The cap” itself is not really any more distinct than say, trading away draft picks. The context is what matters. I see no reason to freak out over the cap anymore so than I’d freak out over draft picks being traded - perception of it is/should be colored by the context…IE what was received in return. If picks are traded, it may mean you “pay the price” later…but that price is worth if the short term payoff exceeds the long term cost. If the reverse is anticipated then that’s a bad move by the GM. The cap is no different, so I don’t know why people speak of it so differently.

 

[njdevils1982]

Not the best hire imo, but the NHL loves recycled coaches.

 

[Triumph]

Again, how is this different than a multitude of other moves/decisions GM’s are responsible for? “The cap” itself is not really any more distinct than say, trading away draft picks. The context is what matters. I see no reason to freak out over the cap anymore so than I’d freak out over draft picks being traded - perception of it is/should be colored by the context…IE what was received in return. If picks are traded, it may mean you “pay the price” later…but that price is worth if the short term payoff exceeds the long term cost. If the reverse is anticipated then that’s a bad move by the GM. The cap is no different, so I don’t know why people speak of it so differently.

What? It's different because it exists every year for every team, whereas some teams should be trading 1st round picks every year if they think it will result in a significant upgrade and some teams should not be trading them at all.

 

[Guttersniped]

because of GM's choices too. They didn't have to move specifically him to solve their issues. There are always other options, other trades, other contracts and players to move. If Toews was shed, it was a conscious choice by Lou that this was the best move to make to manage their roster. I'm not saying what else could have been done but surely there were other things.

For instance. I'm not sure it was an option, but in the end if I'm the isles I'd rather have Toews right now than Anders Lee.

There’s a myth that you can magically throw guys on the LTIR or “move them for pennies” but Mr Robidas Island himself was stuck with Andrew Ladd’s useless ass for years.

Ladd had 5 years/5.5m left when he arrived in 2018. Lou eventually was burying him the AHL but that’s still +4m of dead cap space.

He finally traded Ladd to Arizona last July for a 2021 COL 2nd #60 (yes, one of the two they got for Toews), 2022 NYI 2nd #45, and a conditional 2023 3rd based on what happens to Ladd.

Garth Snow signed Ladd and Josh Bailey (w/ 2 years/5m left).

Keeping the entire band together was a mistake but (late) Lou always spends aggressively and relies on wiggling out of problems later. It’s not always a winning strategy in general but the pandemic makes these contracts hard to move.

Lou did manage to trade Nick Leddy to Detroit by taking back Panik as a cap dump and he got a 2021 EDM 2nd #52 for it. (That’s actually the pick they drafted Raty with.)

 

[guitarguyvic]

What? It's different because it exists every year for every team, whereas some teams should be trading 1st round picks every year if they think it will result in a significant upgrade and some teams should not be trading them at all.

This doesn’t make sense to me. Every team has draft picks every year. Some teams are in a better position to trade them than others. Just like some teams are in a better position to spend close to the cap than others. Ok? The cap is not a completely independent aspect of managing a team like so many people seem to be paranoid about.

 

[Triumph]

This doesn’t make sense to me. Every team has draft picks every year. Some teams are in a better position to trade them than others. Just like some teams are in a better position to spend close to the cap than others. Ok? The cap is not a competent independent aspect of managing a team like so many people seem to be paranoid about.

This doesn't make sense to me because it doesn't track at all with how the salary cap and draft picks are used. Few teams trade their 1st round pick - 9 out of the 32 teams have dealt their 1st round pick. On the contrary, most teams are also pretty close to the salary cap - 19 teams ended the season with less than $1M in cap space. So yes, most of the best teams in the league will be in some form of 'cap trouble' every offseason because that's the nature of success, but it's a question of who and why. Montreal ended up capped out and finished last, Vegas spent the second most and missed the playoffs, Vancouver spent the 5th most and also missed the playoffs. A lot of this is LTIR spending but these teams were at the salary cap.

 

[Camille the Eel]

There’s a myth that you can magically throw guys on the LTIR or “move them for pennies” but Mr Robidas Island himself was stuck with Andrew Ladd’s useless ass for years.

Ladd had 5 years/5.5m left when he arrived in 2018. Lou eventually was burying him the AHL but that’s still +4m of dead cap space.

He finally traded Ladd to Arizona last July for a 2021 COL 2nd #60 (yes, one of the two they got for Toews), 2022 NYI 2nd #45, and a conditional 2023 3rd based on what happens to Ladd.

Garth Snow signed Ladd and Josh Bailey (w/ 2 years/5m left).

Keeping the entire band together was a mistake but (late) Lou always spends aggressively and relies on wiggling out of problems later. It’s not always a winning strategy in general but the pandemic makes these contracts hard to move.

Lou did manage to trade Nick Leddy to Detroit by taking back Panik as a cap dump and he got a 2021 EDM 2nd #52 for it. (That’s actually the pick they drafted Raty with.)

and instead of Toews, Pelech, Pullock and Leddy they ended up with the middle two plus Andy Greene and Chara. Ahaha.

 

[JrFischer54]

Not sure why this is even a question, his return when Lou traded him should've been more than that.

i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that was the best offer he got for him. when shopping someone esp "elite" it makes sense to call as many teams as possible

 

[njdevil26]

Not the best hire imo, but the NHL loves recycled coaches.

Seems to me like Dallas wants to go to the finals one more time, lose, then fire him.

 

[Triumph]

i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that was the best offer he got for him. when shopping someone esp "elite" it makes sense to call as many teams as possible

I'm sure it was, that's why he should've shopped someone else. Instead, he shopped the guy who was picked as a double overager and played his first NHL game at 24, getting back some dimes for a dollar.

When a team trades someone, definitionally they always gets 'the maximum' unless we just assume that they are lazy and didn't talk to everyone (which sometimes happens, e.g. GMs claimed in 2016 that they had no idea Taylor Hall was available in a trade). The question is was that trade worth it, and in the Islanders' case, absolutely no it wasn't. Colorado saw the numbers and bet on upside and won huge, turns out Toews is a top-pairing D signed to a contract a 2nd/3rd pairing guy would get.

 

[Devils731]

 

[glenwo2]

 

[Eggtimer]

i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that was the best offer he got for him. when shopping someone esp "elite" it makes sense to call as many teams as possible

It’s hard to believe that they shopped Toews around enough . I’m guessing Lou never considered trading within the Metro though or maybe even the Eastern conf. ?
Wven meatballs like us thought that it was a steal by Colorado the second it was announced . Im pretty sure GMS and scouting departments thought the same way. Im guessing Lou wanted him out West and had a value in mi d and the first team met or exceeded his askig price he went with instead of shopping him all over.
Im sure Lou has he reasons as to why he didn’t shop him around more , Njt at the end of the day , he lost out on value big time in my opinion

 

[Bleedred]