Around The League 2021-22 season - part IV

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Guttersniped

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Not sure I understand the logic of saying successful teams are or will “pay the price” with cap issues. Like no shit? Just like they “pay the price” of winning a lot by picking lower in the draft. Managing the cap is like lots of other risks GM’s manage…if you think the risk puts you closer to championship you take it. So in that sense Jr Fischer is right…it’s not as much about the cap itself as it is about what kind of players and team you built while putting your team in cap hell. If you built a great team and have success to show for it, you take whatever future risk that comes with. If your team sucked, then you’ve potentially prolonged the suck. But how is that much different than a GM making bad trades or not hitting on draft picks?

The people who insist that cap troubles will always doom a team no matter what are way over the top. It depends on a host of factors.

No one said doom about good teams other than the guy you’re defending because he doesn’t try to understand other people’s arguments.

It’s budgeting. That involves planning, sacrifices, problem solving, luck, keeping a lookout of new solutions, etc.

Traditionally top contenders have cap crunch problems, it’s just part of the process. Some handle it better than others.

It’s a bad thing, like flat out terrible management, when you get into cap trouble without being good. That’s why Jim Benning has gotten mentioned, he’s a prime recent example of that.


Cap crunched teams don’t keel over. They doesn’t burst into flames. They don’t lose all their best players. They do lose players though. They can’t sign non-minimum salary UFAs to fill in holes in the roster either. They often play with a reduced roster during a season because they can’t afford call-ups. They can’t accrue cap space during the season if they cap out.

The recent Rangers recent cap crunch helped get Gorton fired, he was criticized for the lack of depth on a team that lacked depth because it had 20m of dead cap space. They had a bunch of buyouts dragging them down.

In the next three seasons after 2022-23 the salary cap can only go up a maximum of 1m a year. So the highest the Cap could be in 2025-26 is 85.5m.

The Rangers are still squeezed hard right now and it’s going to get worse as their kids on ELC become RFAs.

They likely can’t keep any of their very helpful TDL acquisitions. Not being able to keep Copp would particularly hurt but the rumor is he wants as big a payday as he can get.

If Strome will take a discount they might be able to keep him, if he won’t do that then even he will be hard to keep. I think he might take a AAV discount for more term though.

Kakko needs a deal and as does Georgiev (or they need a new back-up goalie) this off-season.

Next season Miller, Chytil and Lafreniere need new deals. They will have ~3.4m of extra space as the last of the dead cap finally frees up. (That dead space included 12 years of a cap hit from the Brad Richard contract buyout in 2014. Truly an End of an Era.). Lindgren needs a new deal for 2024-25.

The Rags have a bunch of big contracts. They have 6 players making 49.8m which leaves 32.8m (w/ a 82.5m cap) for the rest of the ~17 players on the roster. That’s where budgeting comes in.
 

JrFischer54

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No one said doom about good teams other than the guy you’re defending because he doesn’t try to understand other people’s arguments.

It’s budgeting. That involves planning, sacrifices, problem solving, luck, keeping a lookout of new solutions, etc.

Traditionally top contenders have cap crunch problems, it’s just part of the process. Some handle it better than others.

It’s a bad thing, like flat out terrible management, when you get into cap trouble without being good. That’s why Jim Benning has gotten mentioned, he’s a prime recent example of that.


Cap crunched teams don’t keel over. They doesn’t burst into flames. They don’t lose all their best players. They do lose players though. They can’t sign non-minimum salary UFAs to fill in holes in the roster either. They often play with a reduced roster during a season because they can’t afford call-ups. They can’t accrue cap space during the season if they cap out.

The recent Rangers recent cap crunch helped get Gorton fired, he was criticized for the lack of depth on a team that lacked depth because it had 20m of dead cap space. They had a bunch of buyouts dragging them down.

In the next three seasons after 2022-23 the salary cap can only go up a maximum of 1m a year. So the highest the Cap could be in 2025-26 is 85.5m.

The Rangers are still squeezed hard right now and it’s going to get worse as their kids on ELC become RFAs.

They likely can’t keep any of their very helpful TDL acquisitions. Not being able to keep Copp would particularly hurt but the rumor is he wants as big a payday as he can get.

If Strome will take a discount they might be able to keep him, if he won’t do that then even he will be hard to keep. I think he might take a AAV discount for more term though.

Kakko needs a deal and as does Georgiev (or they need a new back-up goalie) this off-season.

Next season Miller, Chytil and Lafreniere need new deals. They will have ~3.4m of extra space as the last of the dead cap finally frees up. (That dead space included 12 years of a cap hit from the Brad Richard contract buyout in 2014. Truly an End of an Era.). Lindgren needs a new deal for 2024-25.

The Rags have a bunch of big contracts. They have 6 players making 49.8m which leaves 32.8m (w/ a 82.5m cap) for the rest of the ~17 players on the roster. That’s where budgeting comes in.
I wake up and it’s like last night never happened so weird. But I’m cool with it I said what I wanted and you guys said what you wanted. And that’s why we come here.
 

NJDevs26

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Amazing how people take stuff out of context….

The point of the conversation is NOT to be in cap trouble when you just begin to start competing. Vancouver, NYR etc are dealing with cap issues at this early stage is a big problem.
It's also not to throw bad contracts at mediocre players for the sake of being a little more competitive. That's really the kind of bad cap management most people are against. Yes some people here are afraid of their own shadow when it comes to any expenditures at all (including first-liners and first-pairing guys) the way the Devils themselves arguably have been for most of the last several years, but going too far the other way and just pretending the cap doesn't exist or is completely irrelevant isn't prudent either.

It's always relevant, the key is how well you manage it - do you already have a solid core in place like Chicago in the early 2010's or Tampa before you have to start picking which players to shed and filling in at the margins - or are you in cap trouble with a mediocre team running in place, with no real chance to bring in impact players because you've already drained assets chasing your own shadow? Are you having cap issues because you're paying great players or are you having cap issues because you have bad contracts? Teams can adjust to the former a lot easier than the latter (although with Toronto they're so one-dimensional because of all their huge contracts being at forward that hurts too), it's the difference between whether you have to solve your cap issues by getting rid of a Buchnevich/Devin Toews or can you solve it by giving away a more expendable piece, or trading a future asset to get rid of a bad contract. Can't trade that future asset if you've already traded it to get a bad contract in the first place.

It's not in any way 'flip-flopping' to actually have some nuance in a discussion about the cap or say you have to manage it to mitigate how much it affects you long-term.
 
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JrFischer54

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It's also not to throw bad contracts at mediocre players for the sake of being a little more competitive. That's really the kind of bad cap management most people are against. Yes some people here are afraid of their own shadow when it comes to any expenditures at all (including first-liners and first-pairing guys) the way the Devils themselves arguably have been for most of the last several years, but going too far the other way and just pretending the cap doesn't exist or is completely irrelevant isn't prudent either.

It's always relevant, the key is how well you manage it - do you already have a solid core in place like Chicago in the early 2010's or Tampa before you have to start picking which players to shed and filling in at the margins - or are you in cap trouble with a mediocre team running in place, with no real chance to bring in impact players because you've already drained assets chasing your own shadow? Are you having cap issues because you're paying great players or are you having cap issues because you have bad contracts? Teams can adjust to the former a lot easier than the latter (although with Toronto they're so one-dimensional because of all their huge contracts being at forward that hurts too), it's the difference between whether you have to solve your cap issues by getting rid of a Buchnevich/Devin Toews or can you solve it by giving away a more expendable piece, or trading a future asset to get rid of a bad contract. Can't trade that future asset if you've already traded it to get a bad contract in the first place.

It's not in any way 'flip-flopping' to actually have some nuance in a discussion about the cap or say you have to manage it to mitigate how much it affects you long-term.
We’re they “studs” before or after they got traded?
 

Triumph

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Meanwhile Lamoriello wins GM of the year from the hockey establishment. He single-handedly burned down two organizations in the salary cap era. The Islanders are going to have a 10+ year rebuild from the roster he currently constructed.

While I think Lou has done an okay job over there on the Island, I don't think much he's done is really burning it down - has he traded his 1st round pick 2 years in a row, yes, but the team's a veteran team, this is what veteran teams should be doing, you're not going anywhere keeping the pick. Now if he trades his 1st this year, that's bad, but the two drafts before Lou got there were bad and I doubt he made massive changes to the scouting.
 

markog

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Meanwhile Lamoriello wins GM of the year from the hockey establishment. He single-handedly burned down two organizations in the salary cap era. The Islanders are going to have a 10+ year rebuild from the roster he currently constructed.
Zito traded next 3 rounders in a span of 7 months and they got sweped aside while NYI at least got to conference finals back to back years. And Florida also isn't the youngest team either.
 
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devilsblood

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Interesting comparing Colorado to TB's cup teams.

TB was relatively small at the fwd position, but big on the back end. Co is pretty small on the back end but big upfront.

AV's are definitely a north south team too, or at least bring a strong element of that. Just a plethora of big guys trucking up the ice.

Maybe this is a bit inaccurate and I'm basing this off what I'm seeing from Kucherov this post season, but I feel TB has a lot more east west to their game.

Clearly though, right now, Colorado is playing with more pace. And when you're able to do that with a fwd group that is that big, that's difficult to defend.
 

Unknown Caller

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While I think Lou has done an okay job over there on the Island, I don't think much he's done is really burning it down - has he traded his 1st round pick 2 years in a row, yes, but the team's a veteran team, this is what veteran teams should be doing, you're not going anywhere keeping the pick. Now if he trades his 1st this year, that's bad, but the two drafts before Lou got there were bad and I doubt he made massive changes to the scouting.

If you don’t think he burned it down, go look at their current contracts and their future cap situation.

 

Triumph

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Zito traded next 3 rounders in a span of 7 months and they got sweped aside while NYI at least got to conference finals back to back years. And Florida also isn't the youngest team either.

Florida finished with 122 points, the Islanders were on the playoff cusp both years. Ridiculous comparison - while Lou isn't wrong to deal those picks, his team has a way shorter shelf life than the Panthers.
 

Camille the Eel

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Elite player traded for peanuts because of shitty cap management.

because of GM's choices too. They didn't have to move specifically him to solve their issues. There are always other options, other trades, other contracts and players to move. If Toews was shed, it was a conscious choice by Lou that this was the best move to make to manage their roster. I'm not saying what else could have been done but surely there were other things.

For instance. I'm not sure it was an option, but in the end if I'm the isles I'd rather have Toews right now than Anders Lee.
 
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Triumph

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If you don’t think he burned it down, go look at their current contracts and their future cap situation.

I don't think he burned it down. Their current contracts and cap situation are bad, but what did he do to exacerbate that? He's made atrocious signings at the margins but he has not made any major acquisitions besides Pageau and Palmieri. 10 players who played for the Weight/Snow Islanders in 2017-18 are signed for 2022-23. The team has an awful future, but the only options in 2018 once Tavares left were to tear it down for a long rebuild or stay the course, and Lou's done a fine job staying the course. I agree that it only gets worse from here, but I don't think Lou started a fire - it's always been burning since the world's been turning.
 

devilsblood

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Tampa is going to pay a big price? Lol I’m sure they are completely fine with how things turned out for them in this window lol. When you say something like that I just don’t even read the other parts.


It’s great if a guy puts up 50pts in 50 games. Problem is if he can’t stay healthy for the other 30. Kinda defeats the purpose. The greatest ability is availability So how am I shifting goal posts? Thanks for trying to take my flip flop line i came up with it for this board you could at least give me credit when using it.
I feel that Tampa is a team that has done quite well, in part, because they do budget well. Tyler Johnsson was a bit of a bad contract, and they didn't have to pay a ton to move him. but other then that they give their cornerstone players big contracts and then figure it out from there.

They have played the LTIR game well, and they do benefit from the Florida factor, as well as getting a good team discount on players like Perry and Maroon.

But they have seen good players walk and they do have to make decisions on guys like Palat, Cernak, and most importantly Sergachev in the next couple years.

I don't think he burned it down. Their current contracts and cap situation are bad, but what did he do to exacerbate that? He's made atrocious signings at the margins but he has not made any major acquisitions besides Pageau and Palmieri. 10 players who played for the Weight/Snow Islanders in 2017-18 are signed for 2022-23. The team has an awful future, but the only options in 2018 once Tavares left were to tear it down for a long rebuild or stay the course, and Lou's done a fine job staying the course. I agree that it only gets worse from here, but I don't think Lou started a fire - it's always been burning since the world's been turning.
Always noteworthy when Triumph posts a light hearted post.
 

markog

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Florida finished with 122 points, the Islanders were on the playoff cusp both years. Ridiculous comparison - while Lou isn't wrong to deal those picks, his team has a way shorter shelf life than the Panthers.
Florida is caped out, 17 signed players and 3,5m in cap space with no picks. I'm not defending Lou, the Islanders overachieved in 20 and 21, so their draft capital was used ok, and they almost have all the picks for this draft too so it's not a Chicago situation. But overall that team is in the middle of nowhere.
 

devilsblood

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Since we are talking Isle's:

How good is Dobson? Don't really feel like digging into his on ice, but his point totals look really good, especially on that team.
 

Captain3rdLine

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Not enough talk about how big of an impact some good analytical moves have had on Colorado being as good of a team as they are.








Arguably the 3 most impactful players for them this postseason alongside their big top 10 pick players. Kadri is in there two but even he was a decent analytical move considering how bad Barrie was.
 
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