Around The League 2021-22 season - part IV

[NJDevs26]

Said every team until they ship off a dead contract for pennies.

Except there aren't always dead contracts to ship off for alleged pennies. And you would rather be shipping off potential assets (picks, prospects) for actual players that can help you, not as sweeteners to get rid of bad contracts anyway.

 

[Guttersniped]

Exactly, so they'll basically have nothing to show for Buchnevich. If he breaks out even slightly next season they won't be able to afford him. Buchnevich would have been a great bridge from their aging forwards to Kakko (might be gone cause of the cap and shit treatment) and Lafreniere. They also reallllllly could have used the extra scoring against Tampa. Might have cost them a fluke cup with that shitty cap trade.

I do wonder if Drury just didn’t know he would sign for that cheap or if he felt like Goodrow was a must get.

I felt weird even typing that out but the difference in their cap hits is only 2.16m.

I know the arguments. Goodrow was improving their barren bottom 6 and Kakko & Kravtsov were (allegedly) the top 6 RW of the future.

And people often don’t mention Goodrow can play center, which is helpful. He doesn’t do well at all at the center position, but he did in fact play there when Chytil returned from a UBI at the end of the season and was slotted at wing.

But Buchnevich would have had so much more value on that contract as opposed to an unsigned RFA. Mantha got a crazy big return only because he had 3 years/5.7m left on his deal.

Hell, the only reason Adam Larsson got us Hall was because he had 5 years/4.17m left on his still fresh deal.

I still remember people being mystified that they didn’t trade for a different defensemen and they kept throwing out names with no regard for their handedness or contract status.

Cam Fowler was common one. He actually still had 2 years/4m left, which is a nice price. But then he’s a UFA. Is he staying way up North? Fowler got a 8 year/6.5m deal starting in 2018-19, while Larsson still has 3 more years at 4.17m.

Not particularly defending that trade but people do ignore the contract.

 

[JrFischer54]

Has any of this been reduced to a statistical analysis? The back and forth just reads like differing opinions, as opposed to something quantifiable. I will say that negotiating the cap requires competent team managemnet and I bet that if it could be reduced to appropriate analytics the cap would be a sliding scale of hinderance and a team like Vancouver would be held back by it even if TB hasn’t been.

I’ve tried to end the convo a few times but they keep pulling me back in.

Except there aren't always dead contracts to ship off for alleged pennies. And you would rather be shipping off potential assets (picks, prospects) for actual players that can help you, not as sweeteners to get rid of bad contracts anyway.

These dead contracts are usually after the players value expired when the team got what they could out of the player so it’s worth it to throw in a sweetener

 

[Hollywood Nosebleed]

I do wonder if Drury just didn’t know he would sign for that cheap or if he felt like Goodrow was a must get.

I felt weird even typing that out but the difference in their cap hits is only 2.16m.

I know the arguments. Goodrow was improving their barren bottom 6 and Kakko & Kravtsov were (allegedly) the top 6 RW of the future.

And people often don’t mention Goodrow can play center, which is helpful. He doesn’t do well at all at the center position, but he did in fact play there when Chytil returned from a UBI at the end of the season and was slotted at wing.

But Buchnevich would have had so much more value on that contract as opposed to an unsigned RFA. Mantha got a crazy big return only because he had 3 years/5.7m left on his deal.

Hell, the only reason Adam Larsson got us Hall was because he had 5 years/4.17m left on his still fresh deal.

I still remember people being mystified that they didn’t trade for a different defensemen and they kept throwing out names with no regard for their handedness or contract status.

Cam Fowler was common one. He actually still had 2 years/4m left, which is a nice price. But then he’s a UFA. Is he staying way up North? Fowler got a 8 year/6.5m deal starting in 2018-19, while Larsson still has 3 more years at 4.17m.

Not particularly defending that trade but people do ignore the contract.

It's not just the Goodrow signing. They also wasted is 3.275 on Reaves and Blais. Imagine the haul they'd get now for Buchnevich, or keep him for 1.7mil more than Kakko's potential offersheet/trade value.

 

[My3Sons]

I’ve tried to end the convo a few times but they keep pulling me back in.

That’s the problem with the opinion element of it. It’s not reasonably resolved absent consensus. I see Toews being moved as Lou botching the cap and TOR’s bottom six is a testament to cap mismanagement. I think your premise requires good management which is hardly a given.

 

[JrFischer54]

That’s the problem with the opinion element of it. It’s not reasonably resolved absent consensus. I see Toews being moved as Lou botching the cap and TOR’s bottom six is a testament to cap mismanagement. I think your premise requires good management which is hardly a given.

Yeah I mean the leafs are only a constant cup contender playing in one of the hardest divisions in hockey where the 2x champs are going for a 3peat. Sure trade out marner for some depth third line scrubs. That’s going to put them over the top. Which is kinda what the rangers looked like they were doing filling out their bottom 6 but they get bashed for it. Yeah sure towes good example only going to the best offensive team in the league I can’t possibly see why he isn’t flourishing there.

It's not just the Goodrow signing. They also wasted is 3.275 on Reaves and Blais. Imagine the haul they'd get now for Buchnevich, or keep him for 1.7mil more than Kakko's potential offersheet/trade value.

But again these moves got them two wins from the finals. No one is offering sheeting kako

 

[Hollywood Nosebleed]

Yeah I mean the leafs are only a constant cup contender playing in one of the hardest divisions in hockey where the 2x champs are going for a 3peat. Sure trade out marner for some depth third line scrubs. Which is kinda what the rangers looked like they were doing filling out their bottom 6 but they get bashed for it. Yeah sure towes good example only going to the best offensive team in the league I can’t possibly see why he isn’t flourishing there.


But again these moves got them two wins from the finals. No one is offering sheeting kako

Or have to trade Marleau for space which turns into Seth Jarivs. Bet he could have helped the Leafs this year.

 

[Hollywood Nosebleed]

Yeah I mean the leafs are only a constant cup contender playing in one of the hardest divisions in hockey where the 2x champs are going for a 3peat. Sure trade out marner for some depth third line scrubs. That’s going to put them over the top. Which is kinda what the rangers looked like they were doing filling out their bottom 6 but they get bashed for it. Yeah sure towes good example only going to the best offensive team in the league I can’t possibly see why he isn’t flourishing there.


But again these moves got them two wins from the finals. No one is offering sheeting kako

No, an incredible goalie got them there. If you think a player that played 14 games helped more than an over a PPG player would have than there is no hope for you.

 

[Guttersniped]

Has any of this been reduced to a statistical analysis? The back and forth just reads like differing opinions, as opposed to something quantifiable. I will say that negotiating the cap requires competent team managemnet and I bet that if it could be reduced to appropriate analytics the cap would be a sliding scale of hinderance and a team like Vancouver would be held back by it even if TB hasn’t been.

No one is going to put in work to prove that budgeting is a viable concept.

There is a limited amount of money teams can spend, a limited amount of roster spots, a limited number of draft picks, a limited number of contracts, a limited number of prospects etc.

The logic of all of this is pretty basic. A good part of it is The Law of You Can’t Have Your Cake And Eat It Too.

I’m not going to bash my head against a wall because someone on the internet doesn’t think it’s a big deal that the Rangers lost Buchnevich or the Islanders lost Toews or the Canucks lost Tanev, Toffoli, etc or the Knights lost Statny, Schmidt, Dadonov, TBA or the the Blackhawks lost Panarin, Teravainan, etc

Tampa will pay a big price, their bleeding out assets and they can’t sign any UFAs beyond guys on minimum deals. They just happen to have enough talent on the team now, supplemented with costly rentals and Cup chasers signed for minimum, to win. (Yes, it is obviously worth it for them but they are a extreme example and only one team wins the damn thing.)

I get it if some fans have no interest in discussing the cap. If someone says roughly “my eyes glaze over when ever it comes up, it’s just blah blah blah. The GM just needs to do his job. These are the players I want.” I would get that. This isn’t work or class.

I don’t except denying reality though, the hard cap influences a ton of decisions made by GMs, it literally helps shape the rosters. I’m not “worried” about it, I’m simply aware of it. I’m very dispassionate about it, it’s just problem solving. (That’s why LTIR doesn’t bother me.)

Also Mr Cap Don’t Real claims that posters are virulently opposed to all long expensive UFA deals but when we signed Hamilton to literally one of those last off-season people were… at worst, fine about it? Many were excited?

A lot of these claims about what other posters are saying are continually way way off.


Also LTIR is extraordinarily complicated. I do like this section of Cap Friendly’s LTIR FAQ:

LTIR is a very complicated aspect of the NHL operations and the vast majority of details are not specified in the CBA.

 

[JrFischer54]

Or have to trade Marleau for space which turns into Seth Jarivs. Bet he could have helped the Leafs this year.

Yeah I mean sure if covid didn’t shorten the season and changed their position or if the leafs even would’ve drafted him. Nevermind one could argue trading him opened the door to resign kapenen who they then traded to pitt for their first rounder ooooor helped resign marner who is definitely better then Jarvis

No, an incredible goalie got them there. If you think a player that played 14 games helped more than an over a PPG player would have than there is no hope for you.

Good to know ppg is all that matters. This board is funny sometimes with the flip flops

 

[Hollywood Nosebleed]

Yeah I mean sure if covid didn’t shorten the season and changed their position or if the leafs even would’ve drafted him. Nevermind one could argue trading him opened the door to resign kapenen who they then traded to pitt for their first rounder ooooor helped resign marner who is definitely better then Jarvis


Good to know ppg is all that matters. This board is funny sometimes with the flip flops

Damn Discount Jim. Keep moving the goal posts. I didn't just mention ppg. I mentioned games played which you harped on about Buchnevich. Flip flop more.

 

[JrFischer54]

No one is going to put in work to prove that budgeting is a viable concept.

There is a limited amount of money teams can spend, a limited amount of roster spots, a limited number of draft picks, a limited number of contracts, a limited number of prospects etc.

The logic of all of this is pretty basic. A good part of it is The Law of You Can’t Have Your Cake And Eat It Too.

I’m not going to bash my head against a wall because someone on the internet doesn’t think it’s a big deal that the Rangers lost Buchnevich or the Islanders lost Toews or the Canucks lost Tanev, Toffoli, etc or the Knights lost Statny, Schmidt, Dadonov, TBA or the the Blackhawks lost Panarin, Teravainan, etc

Tampa will pay a big price, their bleeding out assets and they can’t sign any UFAs beyond guys on minimum deals. They just happen to have enough talent on the team now, supplemented with costly rentals and Cup chasers signed for minimum, to win. (Yes, it is obviously worth it for them but they are a extreme example and only one team wins the damn thing.)

I get it if some fans have no interest in discussing the cap. If someone says roughly “my eyes glaze over when ever it comes up, it’s just blah blah blah. The GM just needs to do his job. These are the players I want.” I would get that. This isn’t work or class.

I don’t except denying reality though, the hard cap influences a ton of decisions made by GMs, it literally helps shape the rosters. I’m not “worried” about it, I’m simply aware of it. I’m very dispassionate about it, it’s just problem solving. (That’s why LTIR doesn’t bother me.)

Also Mr Cap Don’t Real claims that posters are virulently opposed to all long expensive UFA deals but when we signed Hamilton to literally one of those last off-season people were… at worst, fine about it? Many were excited?

A lot of these claims about what other posters are saying are continually way way off.


Also LTIR is extraordinarily complicated. I do like this section of Cap Friendly’s LTIR FAQ:

Tampa is going to pay a big price? Lol I’m sure they are completely fine with how things turned out for them in this window lol. When you say something like that I just don’t even read the other parts.

Damn Discount Jim. Keep moving the goal posts. I didn't just mention ppg. I mentioned games played which you harped on about Buchnevich. Flip flop more.

It’s great if a guy puts up 50pts in 50 games. Problem is if he can’t stay healthy for the other 30. Kinda defeats the purpose. The greatest ability is availability So how am I shifting goal posts? Thanks for trying to take my flip flop line i came up with it for this board you could at least give me credit when using it.

 

[Hollywood Nosebleed]

Tampa is going to pay a big price? Lol I’m sure they are completely fine with how things turned out for them in this window lol. When you say something like that I just don’t even read the other parts.

They're paying a big price because they're a contender, and now pay stupid prices because they're a powerhouse. Our situation isn't like theirs yet. Hopefully we get there, but you don't have those prices until you're on the cusp. And they can make those trades because they grew their own talent and now overpay. Not cause they sold their own talent for cheap. Keep proving yourself wrong tho.

 

[njdevils1982]

tampa played this like a lemon battery rather than lightning

...and it seems makar really doesnt give a shit about that post game interview

 

[Hollywood Nosebleed]

Tampa is going to pay a big price? Lol I’m sure they are completely fine with how things turned out for them in this window lol. When you say something like that I just don’t even read the other parts.


It’s great if a guy puts up 50pts in 50 games. Problem is if he can’t stay healthy for the other 30. Kinda defeats the purpose. The greatest ability is availability So how am I shifting goal posts? Thanks for trying to take my flip flop line i came up with it for this board you could at least give me credit when using it.

And the guy they traded for played 14 games. How's that for availability? Do you even read?

 

[JrFischer54]

They're paying a big price because they're a contender, and now pay stupid prices because they're a powerhouse. Our situation isn't like theirs yet. Hopefully we get there, but you don't have those prices until you're on the cusp. And they can make those trades because they grew their own talent and now overpay. Not cause they sold their own talent for cheap. Keep proving yourself wrong tho.

What? Why are you lumping us in with the bolts? All I did was call out your stupid comment about Tampa having to pay a hefty price. First no duh no one can stay at top forever. Second I’m sure they are completely fine with how this worked out for them

 

[Guttersniped]

Tampa is going to pay a big price? Lol I’m sure they are completely fine with how things turned out for them in this window lol. When you say something like that I just don’t even read the other parts.

Again, your being willfully obtuse.

No shit, being a “Win Now” team costs assets but if actually win now then you did it successfully.

I actually made this point before and it’s also f***ing obvious so there’s that.

You don’t have to read the other parts, you likely wouldn’t understand them.

 

[JrFischer54]

And the guy they traded for played 14 games. How's that for availability? Do you even read?

And the guy they traded for played 14 games. How's that for availability? Do you even read?

Really that’s all you got from all that? Do you read? I wrote more then that lol. Pretty shitty but for a 3rd line fluff filler manageable. I mean I didn’t ask for Blais in the trade so go ask drury why he wanted him.

Again, your being willfully obtuse.

No shit, being a “Win Now” team costs assets but if actually win now then you did it successfully.

I actually made this point before and it’s also f***ing obvious so there’s that.

You don’t have to read the other parts, you likely wouldn’t understand them.

Ok so we agree whatever “price” Tampa has to pay in the future for their success now is more then worth it. Good thanks

 

[Devilsfan92]

Why did Cooper want that first penalty?

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Omg thanks for pointing that out he hasn’t even played a full season thanks didn’t realize that. So your thinking pavel is putting up 80 next year?

Umm it was a shortened season. Calling him a 50 point guy is kind of dumb.

2019-20: 46 points in 68 games (55 point pace)
2020-21: 48 points in 54 games (73 point pace)
2021-22: 76 points in 73 games (85 point pace)

Even if he doesn’t put up 80 points next season he’s very likely to put up at least 60 or 70 which is very valuable and well worth his contract.

Tampa is going to pay a big price? Lol I’m sure they are completely fine with how things turned out for them in this window lol. When you say something like that I just don’t even read the other parts.


It’s great if a guy puts up 50pts in 50 games. Problem is if he can’t stay healthy for the other 30. Kinda defeats the purpose. The greatest ability is availability So how am I shifting goal posts? Thanks for trying to take my flip flop line i came up with it for this board you could at least give me credit when using it.

He hasn’t missed many games.

 

[JrFischer54]

When a team has to give up a legit stud because the cap then come back to me. If you think pavel is a legit stud so be it guess we will have to see. In the end the rangers seem to be doing a pretty good without him with the direction they went. That’s it for me it’s been fun tonight. This is now like my 4th time trying to end this lol

Ooo I got more of that Milkshake for you

Willful ignorance isn't civil

#sad you probably didn’t get the reference

 

[NjDevsRR]

The rangers won’t have any cap problems everyone needs to relax. Been hearing this talk for years.

.


Said every team until they ship off a dead contract for pennies.

I feel the same way. Some days I have hope for you guys but then I remember.

Man and to think all I did was say the rangers won’t be hurt by the cap doomsday like the hf cap police predict. Who knew how it would turn out.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

When a team has to give up a legit stud because the cap then come back to me. If you think pavel is a legit stud so be it guess we will have to see. In the end the rangers seem to be doing a pretty good without him with the direction they went. That’s it for me it’s been fun tonight. This is now like my 4th time trying to end this lol


#sad you probably didn’t get the reference

Buchneivich is a legit stud.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

 

[guitarguyvic]

Not sure I understand the logic of saying successful teams are or will “pay the price” with cap issues. Like no shit? Just like they “pay the price” of winning a lot by picking lower in the draft. Managing the cap is like lots of other risks GM’s manage…if you think the risk puts you closer to championship you take it. So in that sense Jr Fischer is right…it’s not as much about the cap itself as it is about what kind of players and team you built while putting your team in cap hell. If you built a great team and have success to show for it, you take whatever future risk that comes with. If your team sucked, then you’ve potentially prolonged the suck. But how is that much different than a GM making bad trades or not hitting on draft picks?

The people who insist that cap troubles will always doom a team no matter what are way over the top. It depends on a host of factors.