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Predsanddead24

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Ellis's contract is definitely a concern long term and now the concussion risk is especially concerning, but I'm still not comfortable with Fabbro as our top RD in the immediate future either. I think if we're moving a defenseman Ekholm probably makes the most sense given that his contract would give him big time trade value and he will always be behind Josi on the depth chart.

If we do want to move a defenseman now probably isn't a bad time as there are quite a few stopgap type middle pair guys who will be UFAs we could sign while some of our prospects season a bit longer.
 

Byrddog

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Nov 23, 2007
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Guys and gals I am curious as to why you are willing to stick with Saros? I do not blame him for the situation at all I blame Poile. If they had left him in the AHL for at least two years to develop it would be different. At age 24 he should be hitting the league on all cylinders just like Rinne did. It still took another year in the NHL to start playing like a top NHL tender At 25 Pekka had 49 starts and was 29-15-4 while not a 30 game winner not bad for his first year in the league. This was after Pekka had 145 games in the AHL. His first NHL yeasr he had a 2.38 and a .917. This is the correct way to develop a tender.

Saro's on the other hand has 62 games in the AHL 9 of which were a reconditioning assignment in 17-18. in 16-17 and 17-18 he played very selected games recording 2.35 and 2.45 and .923 .925 at first sight this was encouraging. The last two years the number of games he got has increased and the cherry picking of games dropped some his number took a hit then too with 2.62 and .915 last year and this year 3.13 and .895 as he has started to play better teams this year especially his performance has declined. IOn his last 10 starts he was won three games Jets, Rangers, Sharks he has been pulled twice once after 9:04 in the first and the other 2.22 into the 3rd. He has started 102 games and is 44-32-16 over 5 seasons. That's a 92 game completion rate and has been pulled 10 times. I do not blame the kid for this I blame how he was developed. And I can not seen any reason that would indicate missing all those games he just gets bonked on the head and can win 35-40 games in the league like we all want. Sure he is young but you can not take those development games back. He is what he is he is no Binnington and is closer to the HAmburgler who had a good season and has just faded away.

Many dismiss the importance of goaltending but this season has impressed on us how important it has been to this team. It will continue to be and Saro's is not going to be part of the post Rinne Preds.
 

PredsV82

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I totally agree here it is a crime that the Preds ruined what Sarros could have been by placing him on the bench behind Pekka when he should have been in the AHL getting full seasons of work. He could have been the replacement but now he will bounce around the league as a back up for a few years then be gone. Just poor development.

Oh horse piss. No amount of time in the minors is going to add 3 or 4 inches in height.
 

Predsanddead24

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Guys and gals I am curious as to why you are willing to stick with Saros? I do not blame him for the situation at all I blame Poile. If they had left him in the AHL for at least two years to develop it would be different. At age 24 he should be hitting the league on all cylinders just like Rinne did. It still took another year in the NHL to start playing like a top NHL tender At 25 Pekka had 49 starts and was 29-15-4 while not a 30 game winner not bad for his first year in the league. This was after Pekka had 145 games in the AHL. His first NHL yeasr he had a 2.38 and a .917. This is the correct way to develop a tender.

Saro's on the other hand has 62 games in the AHL 9 of which were a reconditioning assignment in 17-18. in 16-17 and 17-18 he played very selected games recording 2.35 and 2.45 and .923 .925 at first sight this was encouraging. The last two years the number of games he got has increased and the cherry picking of games dropped some his number took a hit then too with 2.62 and .915 last year and this year 3.13 and .895 as he has started to play better teams this year especially his performance has declined. IOn his last 10 starts he was won three games Jets, Rangers, Sharks he has been pulled twice once after 9:04 in the first and the other 2.22 into the 3rd. He has started 102 games and is 44-32-16 over 5 seasons. That's a 92 game completion rate and has been pulled 10 times. I do not blame the kid for this I blame how he was developed. And I can not seen any reason that would indicate missing all those games he just gets bonked on the head and can win 35-40 games in the league like we all want. Sure he is young but you can not take those development games back. He is what he is he is no Binnington and is closer to the HAmburgler who had a good season and has just faded away.

Many dismiss the importance of goaltending but this season has impressed on us how important it has been to this team. It will continue to be and Saro's is not going to be part of the post Rinne Preds.

I don't even know why I'm bothering to try and persuade you, but he's 24 years old and has a career save percentage in the NHL of 0.915 in 102 games. Since the 16-17 season (the first where he got significant starts) he is20th out of goalies with 50+ GP in SV% and GAA. Why would he give up on him because he's had one down year that also happens to correspond to our whole team being bad?

I'll also point out to your Binnington point that Saros is still a year younger than Binnington was last season when he emerged as an NHL caliber goalie so not sure what point you're trying to make there. Even further, Binnington's first 5 pro seasons he averaged 37.6 starts while Saros has averaged 35.3 in his first 4 pro seasons. I really fail to see how playing 2.3 more games in lower tier leagues was better for his development than what Saros has gotten.
 

NoNecksCurse

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that fiala trade was bad.

and now i am not sure if he was the rotten apple or if our core isn't the rotten one. fiala is a young kid but he makes plays on a nightly basis with the wild no one does for our team. forsberg tries but turns the puck over more than fiala as hard as that is to believe.
 
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Porter Stoutheart

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I still can't find fault with Poile on the Fiala trade, and I don't recall many other people doing so at the time of the deal either. Nobody predicted that Granlund would be this useless for us. I think we knew the talent Fiala possessed. And I'm glad he got over the initial bumps in Minnesota and is back on track. But we were within our rights to expect that Granlund would perform at a far higher level than he has.

Sadly for us there have been quite a lot of our big trades that are kind of turning out like this, though. We understood the risks on Jones/Johansen but could justify the expenditure based on our depth at D and desperation for a C. Still, if Johansen can't perform up to a certain minimum level, then it looks worse in hindsight. And Turris/Girard. And then even Subban/Weber despite the initial advantage that promised has gone south with Subban's demise. It's a lot of very high profile deals that were entirely justifiable at the time, but... somehow have gone awry in the final tally, alas.

That could be the ultimate legacy on this team. There's still a little bit of time. But the possibility seems to be looming like never before. :(
 
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Soundgarden

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Yeah, you can't fault Poile for that Granlund trade. Granlund is the player everyone here hoped Fiala one day might turn into, and still he was a lot more responsible defensively.
Trading a one dimensional scorer who sucked defensively and fought a teammate in practice for a player who would have been the highest scorer since the Kariya days is a no-brainer.

Nobody would have thought that Granlund would turn into a 30 point schlub at the age of 27 after 67 and 69 point seasons. It's just mindbogglingly unlucky on our part.
 

adsfan

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I saw Saros in person in the AHL. He dominated the league. Watching Pekka play should have be a boost to his knowledge and experience.

In 2015-16, Saros played 38 games in Milwaukee, that is half of the AHL schedule. He was 29-8-0 with a 2.24 GAA and a 92.0 save%.

Mazanec played in 39 games with a 19-15-5 record with a 2.45 GAA and a 91.2 save%.

Mazanec is 4 years older than Saros, but was clearly outplayed by Saros.
 

PredsV82

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that fiala trade was bad.

and now i am not sure if he was the rotten apple or if our core isn't the rotten one. fiala is a young kid but he makes plays on a nightly basis with the wild no one does for our team. forsberg tries but turns the puck over more than fiala as hard as that is to believe.

Meh. A week ago Russo was on XM talking about how he had a stretch of 12 games with 1 point while the Wild were crashing in the standings. His ceiling is Smith 2.0 but he hasnt even got there yet
 

NoNecksCurse

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Meh. A week ago Russo was on XM talking about how he had a stretch of 12 games with 1 point while the Wild were crashing in the standings. His ceiling is Smith 2.0 but he hasnt even got there yet
the worst stretch he has had was 1 point in his first 8 games. since then, he hasn't went more than 2 games without recording a point.

he has more points than every forward on our team other than forsberg or duchene.

i am really talking about team control more than anything. we would have had fiala's rights for quite a while before UFA.
 

Byrddog

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Fine, send him to Milwaukee and stretch him two inches.
Neither will be advantageous at this point. Development time missed can not be recaptured. And while the league is going to the 6-4 6-5 goalies now smaller guys can still play the game. Granted they do not fill as much of the net.


And adsfan half a season of development for a tender is absurd. Also comparing him to Mazanec another failure does no good, look at the number of games Rinne played in Milwaukee you will find he played 145 games over 3 seasons up there. His first full year in the league he was 25 again there are exceptions as with any position but the rep's Saros missed setting on the bench can not be replaced. He could have had 160 to 180 more games and perhaps a couple championships???? As it is now he has had 102 games here and with each season his GA has went up granted each year his workload difficulty has went up as well and that is the issue. It is not like he just fell off a cliff this season the lack of work has each season resulted in rising GA 2.35,2.45,2.62 and now 3.13. His early success has now turned to the last two seasons having 54 starts and is 23-18-6 and more troubling is the increase in the difficulty of teams faced this season has resulted in 6-8-4 out of 23 starts and having been pulled 5 times for no decision.

It is doubtful this trend will convince many on HF who would prefer to just keep sending him out until the wheels fall completely off. Both he and Pekka are signed thru next season and it is likely that Poile honors those contracts and the struggle continues.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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the worst stretch he has had was 1 point in his first 8 games. since then, he hasn't went more than 2 games without recording a point.

he has more points than every forward on our team other than forsberg or duchene.

i am really talking about team control more than anything. we would have had fiala's rights for quite a while before UFA.
I don't think anybody today disagrees that it turned out to be a Bad Trade. That's spilt milk under the bridge, though. EVERYBODY thought Granlund would be a better player than he has been. Alas. Further proof that time travel isn't a thing.
 

bdub24

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I dare say that Johansen has proven his value and the wisdom of that trade because of what he's produced during the playoffs. It's players like Granlund that seem to have no second gear for when it counts that really are the disappointment to me.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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Thing is... RIGHT NOW counts too... players should be showing their second gear RIGHT NOW if they really have it...
 

OldFan

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Fine, send him to Milwaukee and stretch him two inches.
Saros is way to frequently down in that butterfly position. He likes to play low because he is very quick and very good there.So the league knows that and tries to shoot everything high which merely goes over his reach. He’s got to learn to get up into a better defensive position. He needs to understand he’s a shorter goalie and in the NHL they’ll make you pay. Watch those sharpshooters in the shootout versus Jusse; everything is up.
 

KurtAngle

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Fine, send him to Milwaukee and stretch him two inches.

There are at least 3 six foot goalies or shorter with better numbers than Rinne. And it's not like many past goalies haven't had long, successful careers.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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Saros is probably 5'10" in the real world, right? There are some ways a shorter goalie can mitigate his height, playing just a little further out takes some of the vertical angle away, and not 100% of the height difference in goalies affects the net area coverage. Only a small % of shots on goal reach areas where the height matters. But small %ages are all that separate any of these guys at this elite level. So the smaller goalie has to make up for that by being quicker, better skaters, have better positioning, anticipation, etc. (Rebound control!) Which isn't impossible. Although again it gets harder and harder at the top levels where the big goalies are also so skilled in all these other technical areas as well. So far Saros has generally managed to keep himself on a decent trajectory of making up in speed/skill for what he lacks in size. Like perhaps Halak or Khudobin, say, it shouldn't be impossible for him to proceed to have a successful career.

A lot of times these guys just have less room for error than the bigger goalies. They won't get the benefit of the doubt if they get into a rut the same way a big goalie might. Big goalies are more fashionable for sure, and there's no end of them marching up through the ranks. But the smaller goalies have probably been used to fighting that battle for years. I'm definitely not ready to give up on Saros. But he'll probably continue to fight an uphill battle every step of the way. I think the thing is he does have to find a way to tighten up some of his other technical areas... challenge more and control rebounds better. He still hasn't maxed out the other skill areas which could allow him to most successfully make up for his height disadvantage.
 

Byrddog

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Nov 23, 2007
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Saros is probably 5'10" in the real world, right? There are some ways a shorter goalie can mitigate his height, playing just a little further out takes some of the vertical angle away, and not 100% of the height difference in goalies affects the net area coverage. Only a small % of shots on goal reach areas where the height matters. But small %ages are all that separate any of these guys at this elite level. So the smaller goalie has to make up for that by being quicker, better skaters, have better positioning, anticipation, etc. (Rebound control!) Which isn't impossible. Although again it gets harder and harder at the top levels where the big goalies are also so skilled in all these other technical areas as well. So far Saros has generally managed to keep himself on a decent trajectory of making up in speed/skill for what he lacks in size. Like perhaps Halak or Khudobin, say, it shouldn't be impossible for him to proceed to have a successful career.

A lot of times these guys just have less room for error than the bigger goalies. They won't get the benefit of the doubt if they get into a rut the same way a big goalie might. Big goalies are more fashionable for sure, and there's no end of them marching up through the ranks. But the smaller goalies have probably been used to fighting that battle for years. I'm definitely not ready to give up on Saros. But he'll probably continue to fight an uphill battle every step of the way. I think the thing is he does have to find a way to tighten up some of his other technical areas... challenge more and control rebounds better. He still hasn't maxed out the other skill areas which could allow him to most successfully make up for his height disadvantage.
Everything you said is true. Typically by his age all these skills would have been solidified with game experience where Saro's has been sitting backing up in those important years. Now the door is closing on Rinne and a starting position coming open and Saro's is not ready. So one of two things will happen. Poile will not have the patience for Saro's to work his way into a starter(maybe) or Poile will be forced to find another starter. It has not been in Saro's best interest the way he was brought into the league and right now time is not what Poile has. It is not like Saro's has not shown the potential it is more the current need. The only way I see it working out to Saro's advantage will be Poile going into a real rebuild mode allowing Ingram and Saro's both time to develop into a starter role. Will that happen well we just do not know, we could know by the deadline if Poile starts to move players to get prospects and picks that will indicate his direction. But we know Poile he is just as likely to sit pat liking his team and start next year with just as many questions.
 

101st_fan

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A situational look at Rinne and Saros.

5on5 stats for our goalies
Saros - .903sv%, 2.86gaa
Rinne - .923sv%, 2.28gaa

PK stats (all PK situations)
Saros - .852sv%, 7.09gaa
Rinne - .766sv%, 12.26gaa

Overall
Saros - .895sv%, 3.13gaa
Rinne - .899sv%, 2.95gaa

The things that jump out here the stark difference in performance for Pekka between 5on5 and when the team is on the kill. He isn't putting up Vezina numbers at ES, but those stats don't suck. Saros is a notch below where we need him at ES. Those PK numbers are bad for Saros and a long list of words I can't use here for Rinne. The end result are overall numbers that put Pekka at 57th (of 81) in the league when it comes to sv%, Saros at 63rd .... 42nd for Pekka, 56th for Saros in gaa. We need the goalies to be our best penalty killers and they clearly are not and it is costing us games.

I'm not sure Vanderklok is the right guy to get Saros to that next level. This franchise was lucky for years to have a true goalie whisperer and we need to find a new one. There is the stylistic difference between the two with Rinne flashing the glove and absorbing shots while Saros has more of a blocking style that allows more rebounds. How he directs those rebounds is the one area he can improve. He won't get taller ... he won't get significantly quicker ... but he can work angles and reads better.
 

Porter Stoutheart

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I don't know Vanderklok and it's always impossible for us to really have any insight on what the assistant coaches are doing or how they relate to the players. But some things I would comment in his defense:

Our goaltending results have generally been very good overall during his 5 or 6 years, culminating in a Vezina trophy win by Pekka. Mitch Korn was one of the pioneers in goaltender-focused coaching in the modern era, and certainly none can deny his track record and legacy. Part of what he helped to accomplish was a blossoming of goaltending knowledge and progressive instruction all through North American hockey, at all levels. There are now A LOT of very knowledgeable and capable goaltending instructors out there. But I would suspect that in the course of 15 years of observing Korn at work, Poile was able to gain at least some understanding of how to evaluate the capabilities and requirements of that job description. Taking on Korn's young understudy may have initially been just a natural progression, but 5 years later I would think Poile would have had ample observation of Vanderklok's methods by now to allow an effective evaluation of his performance. And he hasn't been found wanting by those who actually do observe him and work with him.

I tend to find that the most distinguishing trait of a goaltending coach is simply their ability to get along with the player. That they are on the "same wavelength" and just have a knack for communicating and understanding eachother. Like I noted above there are now quite A LOT of really good goaltending instructors out there who have studied all the available technical material and attended all the symposiums. But once you have that level of book expertise accounted for, the really important part is the personal relationship with the player. And I would further submit that Pekka Rinne has been salaried for something on the order of $50M with unheard-of-in-Nashville NMC clauses in his contracts. Pekka Rinne is a valuable organizational asset, represents a massive investment of resources, and I would submit that he would certainly have the power to request a different coach if he was not 100% satisfied with Vanderklok and if they didn't have a very strong relationship. Rinne has had good goaltending coaches in the past and is well known in his native land as well - if there was any question whatsoever of finding him a better fit as a coach, I'm sure the team would have had no trouble bringing in one of the Finnish innovators or finding some other highly-touted candidate. But they never have done so.

So where I'm going in all of this is that the people who I think have the best vantage point for evaluating Vanderklok - Korn, Poile, and Rinne - would all seem to be fully vouching for him. One year of shaky on-ice goaltending results - a year in which many other aspects of the team have also been off-kilter - doesn't seem like enough to outweigh this. From our limited vantage point as fans, maybe taking that as evidence seems circumstantial - but in reality, for the people who really matter within the team structure, highly experienced professionals in their own right - they have all the real evidence in plain sight to evaluate. To me, it would take a much larger sample size of fan-vantage evidence (i.e. on-ice results) to challenge the internal evaluations for a position like goalie coach.

Not to say it's not a worthy topic of discussion... everything should be fair game here. Definitely worth asking the question. But it's such an impenetrable part of the team operations to us, it would really take a large burden of on-ice evidence for me to really get further invested in questioning the goaltending coach. This half-season of shoddy goaltending results in the midst of overall team turmoil, with one aging and potentially physically declining goalie and one young understudy trying to overcome his deficiencies - it's not enough to make me question the judgement of Korn, Poile, and Rinne on this one. If they say Vanderklok is good for them, then I would take their word on it.
 

101st_fan

I taught Yoda
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I'll counter with it's not just one year. The rebound issues with Saros go to his initial callup. The "is Rinne done" comments go back to at least 2017 with those questions amplifying during the post season. We've seen people here saying Saros should surpass Rinne for a few years. Vanderklok doesn't appear to be a bad goalie coach but the question remains if he is the right goalie coach.

Are you suddenly going to apply your "From our limited vantage point as fans, maybe taking that as evidence seems circumstantial - but in reality, for the people who really matter within the team structure, highly experienced professionals in their own right - they have all the real evidence in plain sight to evaluate" to the coaches, forwards, etc and why the players you keep slamming here remain in their roles?
 
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