Armchair GM IV: What do you mean Internal Cap???

[Bench]

The Versteeg trade going through because of Pacific Time?

I couldn't get on earlier, I thought a big trade of consequence went down. Found out it was Versteeg, haha.

When Drouin is traded there's going to be server fires.

 

[FlashyG]

And, honestly, losing any one of those guys does not really hurt this team that much right now. We could still get in and make a token run easily. Replace Nyquist with Pulkkinen. Replace Smith with Ouellet. Replace Helm with some stone handed player and we don't miss much of a beat.

Helm and Smith are easily replaced.

Nyquist isn't in that category though. He's one of our leading scorers on a team that's having extreme difficulties scoring goals and is clearly part of the teams future.

The only scenario where trading Nyquist or Tatar makes sense is if another trade was made already to bolster the offence, or as an upgrade on a better forward replacement.

I've always found it funny around here that every prospect is beloved until they get a season or 2 under their belt then become expendable to make room for the next prospect.

I wonder if the board will turn on Larkin too in a season or 2.

 

[Ennui]

I couldn't get on earlier, I thought a big trade of consequence went down. Found out it was Versteeg, haha.

When Drouin is traded there's going to be server fires.

I hear it's all that GuruMeditation's fault. Is the error message some kind of inside joke, or something?

 

[The Zermanator]

Helm and Smith are easily replaced.

Nyquist isn't in that category though. He's one of our leading scorers on a team that's having extreme difficulties scoring goals and is clearly part of the teams future.

The only scenario where trading Nyquist or Tatar makes sense is if another trade was made already to bolster the offence, or as an upgrade on a better forward replacement.

I've always found it funny around here that every prospect is beloved until they get a season or 2 under their belt then become expendable to make room for the next prospect.

I wonder if the board will turn on Larkin too in a season or 2.

I would suggest that's an extreme simplification. 'Expendable' isn't the same as 'I've identified a position of greater need, and am willing to pay the price to satisfy that need because I think it will be a net gain'.

 

[Bench]

I've always found it funny around here that every prospect is beloved until they get a season or 2 under their belt then become expendable to make room for the next prospect.

I wonder if the board will turn on Larkin too in a season or 2.

Shiny new toy syndrome.

People fought on this forum like dogs to get Smith and Kindl more ice time under the oppressive Babcock regime. Then they did. Now we can't stop talking about how great it will be to ditch them.

The promise of a young player is alluring. When they take those NHL shifts in limited games they are always flying, fighting through hits, doing everything they can to earn more than 8 minutes. It's a desperate fight for life against other bottom lines. Then the reality sets in when you want to throw one of them into a scoring role against top defenders.

It's difficult to shake this mindset because sometimes flipping in a prospect does work out better. And sometimes it doesn't. So we tend to remember our successes and come up with reasons and excuses for the failures that were out of our control. You know, like Babcock ruined Smith. He used his powers to suck out all the skill from his game. Made him stupid and such. I don't know, I never really followed that logic, somebody else can make that argument.

The difference from previous years is we used to have this debate around guys like Sammy and Bert. Older, slower guys with a lot of league savvy, but lose their legs. Now it's guys who still have plenty in the tank, but it turns out their top performances are, ehhh, lacking. It was a lot easier to talk about replacing Cleary when he was banged up beyond hope than it is to find answers when younger players like Nyquist don't give us what we want.

I'm all for a roster shakeup and some wholesale changes, but the time for that is in the off-season, not the trade deadline.

 

[Classicnamesup]

I hear it's all that GuruMeditation's fault. Is the error message some kind of inside joke, or something?

Just been a long time problem

 

[Bench]

I hear it's all that GuruMeditation's fault. Is the error message some kind of inside joke, or something?

He named his account after the error you get when you see that screen. Kind of brilliant, really. Here's some non-hockey reading for why you see Guru Mediation when things go belly up around here... which seems likely to happen in the next 24 hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Meditation

 

[Classicnamesup]

Should sell off the UFAs. BRichards, Helm, whatever.

I think people will miss Helm more than they realize, he is a valuable asset.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Shiny new toy syndrome.

People fought on this forum like dogs to get Smith and Kindl more ice time under the oppressive Babcock regime. Then they did. Now we can't stop talking about how great it will be to ditch them.

The promise of a young player is alluring. When they take those NHL shifts in limited games they are always flying, fighting through hits, doing everything they can to earn more than 8 minutes. It's a desperate fight for life against other bottom lines. Then the reality sets in when you want to throw one of them into a scoring role against top defenders.

It's difficult to shake this mindset because sometimes flipping in a prospect does work out better. And sometimes it doesn't. So we tend to remember our successes and come up with reasons and excuses for the failures that were out of our control. You know, like Babcock ruined Smith. He used his powers to suck out all the skill from his game. Made him stupid and such. I don't know, I never really followed that logic, somebody else can make that argument.

The difference from previous years is we used to have this debate around guys like Sammy and Bert. Older, slower guys with a lot of league savvy, but lose their legs. Now it's guys who still have plenty in the tank, but it turns out their top performances are, ehhh, lacking. It was a lot easier to talk about replacing Cleary when he was banged up beyond hope than it is to find answers when younger players like Nyquist don't give us what we want.

I'm all for a roster shakeup and some wholesale changes, but the time for that is in the off-season, not the trade deadline.

Smith has been a lot better this year... Disagree with him being scratched right now. Analytically and eye test favors him up the lineup this year. But he isn't going to be what we hoped as we crushed the offensive components of his game to a certain degree in terms of his development. He also never really got better at shooting the puck which we were hoping to see. It might be time for a change but I will always wonder what could have been with him. He was the best of those great Badger D-man by a decent amount and that was a very good group.

Also have always thought the Ben Smith hit and Shanahan (proving he wasn't in our pocket) took some of that physical bite out of his game. Was a bigger hitter until that point and seemed to get gun shy about running guys in the middle of the ice. He still gets physical in the corners but Smith threw punishing open ice hits coming up and they seemed to vanish as soon as that one went wrong.

Agree on the timing in terms of the shake up though.

 

[Shaman464]

Helm and Smith are easily replaced.

Nyquist isn't in that category though. He's one of our leading scorers on a team that's having extreme difficulties scoring goals and is clearly part of the teams future.

The only scenario where trading Nyquist or Tatar makes sense is if another trade was made already to bolster the offence, or as an upgrade on a better forward replacement.

I've always found it funny around here that every prospect is beloved until they get a season or 2 under their belt then become expendable to make room for the next prospect.

I wonder if the board will turn on Larkin too in a season or 2.

The fact of the matter is the Wings are loaded at wing in the farm system. While I don't believe that all of them will pan out, I do believe that in the cap world you have to sometimes trade away players you'd prefer to keep and use younger players in order to navigate the cap system. Losing one of Nyquist/Tatar isn't what you would do in a perfect world, but no team is going to part with a top tier, young D-man for unproven prospects or middling draft picks. The Wings will have to send back assets, and in their current cap situation some of those assets will need to come with a healthy cap hit. In the end that is why I find Nyquist to be the best trade bait, because he has a bigger cap hit, because he also could use a change of scenery and because this team needs a top d-man that they have lacked for nearly half a decade.

Should sell off the UFAs. BRichards, Helm, whatever.

I think people will miss Helm more than they realize, he is a valuable asset.

The only way I will miss Helm is if he walks away after July 1. His skills are utterly replaceable and the Wings can not afford what he is likely to ask. I think the best thing Holland can do is trade him and hope for a decent return.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Should sell off the UFAs. BRichards, Helm, whatever.

I think people will miss Helm more than they realize, he is a valuable asset.

This is pretty much what i suggested, But seeing that we're in the playoff hunt i seriously doubt Holland would do it.

 

[KJoe88]

And, honestly, losing any one of those guys does not really hurt this team that much right now. We could still get in and make a token run easily. Replace Nyquist with Pulkkinen. Replace Smith with Ouellet. Replace Helm with some stone handed player and we don't miss much of a beat.

Trade Nyquist and replace him with Pulkkinen and see what happens...

Have people actually watched Pulkkinen this year? He's horrible. His shots the majority of the time go way wide or Samuelsson's it. His defense is bad and he's incredibly weak. Way weaker than Nyquist. Nyquist has elite vision - Pulkkinen does not.

I doubt he'll ever develop into anything more than a borderline 20G scorer.

XO will be better than Smith defensively eventually, though.

Helm is one the best bottom sixers in the NHL.

 

[Reddwit]

Should sell off the UFAs. BRichards, Helm, whatever.

I think people will miss Helm more than they realize, he is a valuable asset.

I'll miss Helm if he goes. Love him. So valuable. But I love the team more. Signing him to what he'll want is bad management. Trade him while you can recoup a 2nd or 3rd.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Should sell off the UFAs. BRichards, Helm, whatever.

I think people will miss Helm more than they realize, he is a valuable asset.

Wings aren't selling because they're a playoff team. You might think they're not very good and they'll get jack hammered in the first round, but no team worth its salt is going to sell off pieces when they're literally five points out of a division lead at the trade deadline. Particularly when the team leading the division seems primed for a decline because they're riding a crazy unsustainable hit streak.

Trading UFA rentals for fourth round picks sounds like a good idea because you're getting assets for someone who could just walk away... But fourth round picks are optimistic returns for the guys the Wings would be selling and seriously, a guy like Helm will provide more value to the Wings than the, at-best, 5% chance they get something useful out of that pick. Most fourth round picks amount to nothing. So you can feel good about "not letting a player leave for no return" while ignoring the fact that so many of the mid round players pretty much are no return.

Selling guys for the sake of salvagjng "value" is ridiculous when you're ignoring the value they will provide for the last two months before they are free agents.

It's like for some reason you feel fine discounting the fact that any team can win in a seven game series and don't want that risk, but you're fine putting the risk into the draft where you won't know for three or four years if you've wasted your time. A 1-5% shot at the draft is fine, but a lets say 20-40% shot in the playoffs is a certainty.

 

[RabidBadger]

Shiny new toy syndrome.

People fought on this forum like dogs to get Smith and Kindl more ice time under the oppressive Babcock regime. Then they did. Now we can't stop talking about how great it will be to ditch them.

The promise of a young player is alluring. When they take those NHL shifts in limited games they are always flying, fighting through hits, doing everything they can to earn more than 8 minutes. It's a desperate fight for life against other bottom lines. Then the reality sets in when you want to throw one of them into a scoring role against top defenders.

It's difficult to shake this mindset because sometimes flipping in a prospect does work out better. And sometimes it doesn't. So we tend to remember our successes and come up with reasons and excuses for the failures that were out of our control. You know, like Babcock ruined Smith. He used his powers to suck out all the skill from his game. Made him stupid and such. I don't know, I never really followed that logic, somebody else can make that argument.

The difference from previous years is we used to have this debate around guys like Sammy and Bert. Older, slower guys with a lot of league savvy, but lose their legs. Now it's guys who still have plenty in the tank, but it turns out their top performances are, ehhh, lacking. It was a lot easier to talk about replacing Cleary when he was banged up beyond hope than it is to find answers when younger players like Nyquist don't give us what we want.

I'm all for a roster shakeup and some wholesale changes, but the time for that is in the off-season, not the trade deadline.

I'll be one of the first to step up and say Babcock did not make for a good match with Smitty. I watched virtually every game he played at Wisconsin. It was a painful, but rewarding process seeing him go from a converted forward to a d-man. There were idiotic plays we can all relate to that earned benchings, but there was progress every year under Mike Eaves. He eventually became one of the best players in the league playing in a conference that produced guys like Toews, Parise, Pavelski, Wheeler, etc.

Things were looking good in the AHL with Blash (an all star appearance!). Still progressing.

Then the NHL. The tires have been spinning and there have been few high points for a high pick with so much expectation. You can't help but notice Smitty is on pace to meet or exceed his heretofore best season under a new coach. Anecdotaly, I've noticed a precipitous drop off of Smitty-bashing this year. Hmmm.

I'm not making the case he would have been the next Doughty on another team. I'm making the point I feel Babs idea of a system, many of us, and Wings players soured on, did not make for a good start for one B. Smith.

Regardless of history, I dont think anyone can question his character. He's one of the few guys who will drop 'em to stick up for a teammate. If he can bring us something good in a trade I'm all for it. I wish him well if he goes.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Wings aren't selling because they're a playoff team. You might think they're not very good and they'll get jack hammered in the first round, but no team worth its salt is going to sell off pieces when they're literally five points out of a division lead at the trade deadline. Particularly when the team leading the division seems primed for a decline because they're riding a crazy unsustainable hit streak.

Trading UFA rentals for fourth round picks sounds like a good idea because you're getting assets for someone who could just walk away... But fourth round picks are optimistic returns for the guys the Wings would be selling and seriously, a guy like Helm will provide more value to the Wings than the, at-best, 5% chance they get something useful out of that pick. Most fourth round picks amount to nothing. So you can feel good about "not letting a player leave for no return" while ignoring the fact that so many of the mid round players pretty much are no return.

Selling guys for the sake of salvagjng "value" is ridiculous when you're ignoring the value they will provide for the last two months before they are free agents.

It's like for some reason you feel fine discounting the fact that any team can win in a seven game series and don't want that risk, but you're fine putting the risk into the draft where you won't know for three or four years if you've wasted your time. A 1-5% shot at the draft is fine, but a lets say 20-40% shot in the playoffs is a certainty.

Have you noticed that Eriksson is one of the top trade assets right now, Boston is above us in the standings and nobody is slamming Boston for moving him.

Frankly, the value Helm will bring to us in the post season is less than the third or so he could get back. Another first round loss, at best a second round loss, is not worth a thing (except to the owner). If you truly believe this team is a contender, good on ya.

 

[FlashyG]

I would suggest that's an extreme simplification. 'Expendable' isn't the same as 'I've identified a position of greater need, and am willing to pay the price to satisfy that need because I think it will be a net gain'.

Right now the Wings biggest need is goal scoring, unless you're trading Nyquist for a better scorer you're not improving the team.

The fact of the matter is the Wings are loaded at wing in the farm system. While I don't believe that all of them will pan out, I do believe that in the cap world you have to sometimes trade away players you'd prefer to keep and use younger players in order to navigate the cap system. Losing one of Nyquist/Tatar isn't what you would do in a perfect world, but no team is going to part with a top tier, young D-man for unproven prospects or middling draft picks. The Wings will have to send back assets, and in their current cap situation some of those assets will need to come with a healthy cap hit. In the end that is why I find Nyquist to be the best trade bait, because he has a bigger cap hit, because he also could use a change of scenery and because this team needs a top d-man that they have lacked for nearly half a decade.

My point isn't that we shouldn't consider trading Nyquist, its that if you do you won't be able to replace him by simply playing Pulkkinen in his spot or by calling up someone from Grand Rapids.

If you flip Nyquist for a defensive upgrade, you'll need to then make another trade to fill the offensive gap that will be left in his void because scoring goals is the teams biggest need right now not defence.

I also disagree that Brodin is a top pairing defenceman worthy of making such a trade, he's a very solid and dependable middle pairing guy with little to no offensive upside akin to Dekeyser.

If I'm using Nyquist as trade bait as part of a package to bring in a defenceman, he has to be instantly the best defenceman on the team, capable of both keeping pucks out of our net and more importantly, significantly adding to the teams offence.

 

[FlashyG]

Have you noticed that Eriksson is one of the top trade assets right now, Boston is above us in the standings and nobody is slamming Boston for moving him.

What choice does Boston have?

Unlike Helm, Eriksson is their 2nd leading scorer. They can't just let him leave for nothing and given his desire for a long term contract worth over 6 million a season, they can't really afford to keep him either.

I agree that Helm is expendable, and if a good offer came for him, I'd jump at it but his situation and Erikssons aren't really comparable.

 

[Claypool]

Have you noticed that Eriksson is one of the top trade assets right now, Boston is above us in the standings and nobody is slamming Boston for moving him.

Boston also wasn't expected to be a playoff team this year, either. Their plan going into this season was to probably trade Eriksson regardless of positioning. If Detroit was well out of the playoffs right now I'd expect Holland to deal any UFAs on the team.

 

[Mijatovic]

Instead we will lose assets for nothing in another glamorous Round 1 exit!!!

 

[SirKillalot]

Should sell off the UFAs. BRichards, Helm, whatever.

I think people will miss Helm more than they realize, he is a valuable asset.

Yeah, I don't get why people are so harsh on Helm. Just keep him out of the top six and he's a valuable player. Just please stay injury free.

 

[Classicnamesup]

None of those are reasons why two teams that aren't contending for a cup should be acting differently. Dump the Ufas and receive some value. Some

 

[HIFE]

Smith has been a lot better this year... Disagree with him being scratched right now. Analytically and eye test favors him up the lineup this year....

Witnessing his development as a Red Wing for over 3 1/2 seasons has been enjoyable. I think this year he has finally taken that needed step. He carries himself like a gamer now. Strange all the enthusiasm yesterday for him possibly being traded. It was also mentioned by someone that it should have been done seasons ago but I think Smith's value is the highest it's ever been.

It's interesting Marchenko leapfrogged Smith in management's eyes. I won't forget game 1 last spring how weak and out of place Marchenko was. Game 2 Smith was inserted it was a vast improvement the Wings never looked back that series. As for this season I don't see any gulf between the play of Smith vs. Marchy, Ericsson, or Quincey. There's so few spots I can respect it's a tough decision to make.

 

[VM1138]

Witnessing his development as a Red Wing for over 3 1/2 seasons has been enjoyable. I think this year he has finally taken that needed step. He carries himself like a gamer now. Strange all the enthusiasm yesterday for him possibly being traded. It was also mentioned by someone that it should have been done seasons ago but I think Smith's value is the highest it's ever been.

It's interesting Marchenko leapfrogged Smith in management's eyes. I won't forget game 1 last spring how weak and out of place Marchenko was. Game 2 Smith was inserted it was a vast improvement the Wings never looked back that series. As for this season I don't see any gulf between the play of Smith vs. Marchy, Ericsson, or Quincey. There's so few spots I can respect it's a tough decision to make.

Smith being better lately doesn't mean he's suddenly good. I think the biggest knocks against him are his low hockey IQ and his terrible passing. He's not going to get any better at this point, and if you can trade a 6th d-man for something, why not?

As for Marchenko, I think he's another Lashoff. Serviceable but I don't think he's going to be anything more than a bottom pair guy. But he's cheaper and younger so let's see what he has. Bottom pairing guys like Smith are easy to replace.

 

[KJoe88]

Smith being better lately doesn't mean he's suddenly good. I think the biggest knocks against him are his low hockey IQ and his terrible passing. He's not going to get any better at this point, and if you can trade a 6th d-man for something, why not?

As for Marchenko, I think he's another Lashoff. Serviceable but I don't think he's going to be anything more than a bottom pair guy. But he's cheaper and younger so let's see what he has. Bottom pairing guys like Smith are easy to replace.

Lol, no he's not. I can't... wat.