Armchair GM IV: What do you mean Internal Cap???

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Claypool

Registered User
Jan 12, 2009
13,670
4,352
The offseason is where you make the big time deals generally, the Seguin, Hamilton, Saad type deals. The major problem there is that Holland hasn't made a deal like that in the post cap era.

Would you rather have Dylan Larkin right now or Tyler Myers? Because those are the types of deals you're talking about here. How about Dion Phaneuf instead of Anthony Mantha? Nobody would be ok with Jay Bouwmeester now instead of Tatar and/or Nyquist, either. Holland has stated repeatedly every offseason that the plan is to be paitent and build through the draft because the players they need are hardly ever available anymore. There's no sense in selling the farm to take a run when this team's window closed many years ago.
 

Leadzedder

Registered User
Jan 2, 2005
1,767
628
I'll give fantasy GM'ing a go.

Right now we have approximately 53 million towards the cap (including Weiss and Kindl wasted cap). Under contract we have 9 forwards, 4 defence and 1 goalie.

Trades

I trade Nyquist, Smith and whatever picks necessary for Shattenkirk and his 4.25 hit.

I trade Howard for picks.

These transactions drop our cap # down to 44.5 mil. We now have 8 forwards, 4 defence and 0 goalies.

Resign RFAs

I sign our 5 key RFA's for a combined 12.5.

We are up to 57 million with 10 forwards, 6 defence and 1 goalies.


Sign Free Agents

I sign Eriksson, Okposo and Gustavsson for a combined 11.5 million

Totals - 68.5 million - 12 forwards, 6 defence, 2 goalies.


Promote / Resign Players

I promote Mantha, Ouellet and resign Miller for Miller type money.

This puts us at a full 23 man roster and at the familiar cap number of 71.4.




IN - OUT

Eriksson - Nyquist
Athanasiou -Richards
Mantha - Andersson
Okposo - Helm

Shattenkirk - Quincey
Ouellet - Smith

Gustavsson - Howard




The other alternative to that would be to forget one of either Eriksson or Okposo and that would allow you (money wise) to keep both Helm and Smith.

So... Okposo / Eriksson and Ouellet vs. Helm and Smith. If choosing the Helm/Smith option than Ouellet is added to the Shattenkirk deal and more picks / prospects would be required.
 
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Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
19,736
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Sweden
Some of you guys must not watch the same Darren Helm that I watch and love. He would be one of the last guys, outside of the core, that I would let go, or trade. I read so much negativity about him. He is easily one of Detroit's hardest working, most effort players they have. He is constantly forcing the other team to turn the puck over, or drawing penalties because of his speed. Injuries are obviously a concern, but when healthy he is awesome at what he does.

He isn't a scorer, sure, but that isn't his job. When he isn't in the line-up, the Wings, just don't have the same jump.
Agreed. Helm may not be one of the 'whipping boys', but he is certainly one of the most under-appreciated players on our team.
 

FireBird71

Registered User
Aug 6, 2015
3,110
1,207
Some of you guys must not watch the same Darren Helm that I watch and love. He would be one of the last guys, outside of the core, that I would let go, or trade. I read so much negativity about him. He is easily one of Detroit's hardest working, most effort players they have. He is constantly forcing the other team to turn the puck over, or drawing penalties because of his speed. Injuries are obviously a concern, but when healthy he is awesome at what he does.

He isn't a scorer, sure, but that isn't his job. When he isn't in the line-up, the Wings, just don't have the same jump.

AA is a suitable replacement
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
Some of you guys must not watch the same Darren Helm that I watch and love. He would be one of the last guys, outside of the core, that I would let go, or trade. I read so much negativity about him. He is easily one of Detroit's hardest working, most effort players they have. He is constantly forcing the other team to turn the puck over, or drawing penalties because of his speed. Injuries are obviously a concern, but when healthy he is awesome at what he does.

He isn't a scorer, sure, but that isn't his job. When he isn't in the line-up, the Wings, just don't have the same jump.

Some issues with Helm:

#1 He's already making about as much as his skill set should allow him to make. Anymore and he's never going to live up to it.

#2 This team already has a lot of contract and cap space tied up on players who are 30 or over and have a limited skill set.

#3 This team has a massive logjam at forward, since he's not elite defensively, he's not even good offensively why waste the roster space?
 

HisNoodliness

The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Jun 29, 2014
3,652
2,022
Toronto
Yeah I like helm and would love to keep him. But I think we had to choose between him and Abdelkader as the overpaid bottom 6 guy. We can't do both. Helm is a good player but he lacks the skill to be an important piece and we're full of non-impact forwards.
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
Why "replacement"? Are we not allowed to have more than one fast player? Last I heard we had 12 forward positions. ..

Upcoming UFA who will probably get a raise. Better to replace than to pay him. If he wants to stick around for cheap by all means sign him but I don't want to pay him more than he's making now when we have a competent player who can take his spot.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,683
Upcoming UFA who will probably get a raise. Better to replace than to pay him. If he wants to stick around for cheap by all means sign him but I don't want to pay him more than he's making now when we have a competent player who can take his spot.

We have an abundance of top 9 forwards as it is, with more likely on the way.

Helm doesn't fit in as well in the top 9, and you don't want to get stuck with a 2.5-3.0 million dollar 4th liner.
 

Hammettf2b

oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg
Jul 9, 2012
22,489
4,610
So California
Some issues with Helm:

#1 He's already making about as much as his skill set should allow him to make. Anymore and he's never going to live up to it.

#2 This team already has a lot of contract and cap space tied up on players who are 30 or over and have a limited skill set.

#3 This team has a massive logjam at forward, since he's not elite defensively, he's not even good offensively why waste the roster space?

Yeah I like helm and would love to keep him. But I think we had to choose between him and Abdelkader as the overpaid bottom 6 guy. We can't do both. Helm is a good player but he lacks the skill to be an important piece and we're full of non-impact forwards.

Upcoming UFA who will probably get a raise. Better to replace than to pay him. If he wants to stick around for cheap by all means sign him but I don't want to pay him more than he's making now when we have a competent player who can take his spot.

We have an abundance of top 9 forwards as it is, with more likely on the way.

Helm doesn't fit in as well in the top 9, and you don't want to get stuck with a 2.5-3.0 million dollar 4th liner.

This is why I think the Abby deal was a mistake. I would rather have Helm at 2.5-3 than what Abby got. Say what you want about Abby and the type of play he brings, but when it all comes down to it, I think he stifles our top-6. With Helm getting the extension instead of Abby, Helm can be put on the bottom-6. While it might be an over payment for a bottom-6 player, I would rather have that than an over paid bottom-6 guy stifling our top-6 in which Abby is doing and will continue to do. If you think Helm would be over payed as a bottom-6 guy, just think when and if Abby is finally away from the top-6 for better players ie: AA, Mantha, etc...

I like what Abby brings, don't get me wrong, but not at the expense of top-6 money or the top-6 roster spot.
 

YpsiWings

Registered User
Feb 5, 2016
1,191
479
Say what you want about Abby and the type of play he brings

I am more lenient with Abby than most fans because of your quote. He is the only player on the team who drives the net and throws the body every night, and those are two of the biggest issues with the Wings.

If his contract was 2 years shorter I wouldn't have a problem with it either.
 

PullHard

Jul 18, 2007
28,377
2,452
Abby and Ericsson got money and term because they have the ability/ potential to do things almost no one else on the roster can do

win/ do damage in puck battles (especially along the boards where a lot of our players look out of their element), hold their ground, impose themselves physically, fight, stand up for teammates

I think I'd rather pony up another $1-2M and give Abby's contract to a guy like Lucic or someone of that ilk, but the reality is those guys aren't easy to acquire. Holland could have waited until free agency to try to sign Lucic to something like $6M (or more) long term, but if he swings and misses, then Abby has the team over the barrel in negotiations, assuming he hasn't already signed elsewhere. Plus he is a Michigan guy and knows our system and team well and is a good guy to have in general.

His contract isn't great at all because of how long he is going to be paid, Ericsson's seems borderline bad/ terrible some nights, and is frustrating in general with his decline in the last couple of years, but Detroit is already physically outmatched. Imagine a team without those guys.

You could still fault Holland and the scouting staff for not addressing the size issue in drafts or free agency throughout the last ~decade or so, because they've kind of put themselves in a corner by drafting so many small skilled players over the years, but it is the situation that has been present and I can't really fault the organization for valuing those guys.
 

HisNoodliness

The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Jun 29, 2014
3,652
2,022
Toronto
I am more lenient with Abby than most fans because of your quote. He is the only player on the team who drives the net and throws the body every night, and those are two of the biggest issues with the Wings.

If his contract was 2 years shorter I wouldn't have a problem with it either.

I agree he brings a necessary element but he doesn't belong in the top 6. Also his contract would be fine at 2 years shorter and 1.5 million lower. He got too much for too long. In 2 years it'll be one of the worst contacts in the league.
 

Hammettf2b

oldmanyellsatcloud.jpg
Jul 9, 2012
22,489
4,610
So California
I agree with everything you said about Abby. Still doesn't convince me to sign him to that contract. I would rather go after a guy like Okposo or someone similar if they are available. My argument is, just because we lack in a certain area, shouldn't mean we should over pay for a guy who doesn't really belong in the top-6. Who knows, he might be a 20 goal scorer without the Euro Twins and prove me dead wrong, we shall see.
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,764
10,302
That is the thing with Abdelkader, he gets 20 goals riding Zetterberg's and Datsyuk's coattails. Without them, he will be 10-12 type of guy, more than likely. I like him and all, but players of his ilk, should never get 7 year deals, just like Ericsson shouldn't have. They also shouldn't get any form of no trade, no movement clauses.

Top players are the only ones that deserve those kind of perks, and the league wonders why there are so many teams, handcuffed by their rosters, when seemingly any tenured player nowadays gets NTC's.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,211
4,420
Boston, MA
That is the thing with Abdelkader, he gets 20 goals riding Zetterberg's and Datsyuk's coattails. Without them, he will be 10-12 type of guy, more than likely. I like him and all, but players of his ilk, should never get 7 year deals, just like Ericsson shouldn't have. They also shouldn't get any form of no trade, no movement clauses.

Top players are the only ones that deserve those kind of perks, and the league wonders why there are so many teams, handcuffed by their rosters, when seemingly any tenured player nowadays gets NTC's.

Agreed, and KH is handing out long term high dollar contracts like candy, and if history has shown us anything it's that these types of contracts eventually cause huge problems for a team. It'd be okay if they had one bad contract, or even two, but they have 4, a buyout and issues coming down the road with Z if he retires or if he continues his regression.
 

Reddwit

Registered User
Feb 4, 2016
7,696
3,418
Yeah Hartnell is and has been twice the player Abs is, but his deal has made him tough to trade and trapped the Jackets a bit. That'll be us with Abs quite soon.

Oh god. I don't want to think about Abby without Hank or Datsyuk.
 

Bushay

Registered User
Aug 2, 2009
302
3
Abby and Ericsson got money and term because they have the ability/ potential to do things almost no one else on the roster can do

win/ do damage in puck battles (especially along the boards where a lot of our players look out of their element), hold their ground, impose themselves physically, fight, stand up for teammates

I think I'd rather pony up another $1-2M and give Abby's contract to a guy like Lucic or someone of that ilk, but the reality is those guys aren't easy to acquire. Holland could have waited until free agency to try to sign Lucic to something like $6M (or more) long term, but if he swings and misses, then Abby has the team over the barrel in negotiations, assuming he hasn't already signed elsewhere. Plus he is a Michigan guy and knows our system and team well and is a good guy to have in general.

His contract isn't great at all because of how long he is going to be paid, Ericsson's seems borderline bad/ terrible some nights, and is frustrating in general with his decline in the last couple of years, but Detroit is already physically outmatched. Imagine a team without those guys.

You could still fault Holland and the scouting staff for not addressing the size issue in drafts or free agency throughout the last ~decade or so, because they've kind of put themselves in a corner by drafting so many small skilled players over the years, but it is the situation that has been present and I can't really fault the organization for valuing those guys.

Good post. Too bad more around here dont think a little outside the box like this.
 

Bushay

Registered User
Aug 2, 2009
302
3
I agree with everything you said about Abby. Still doesn't convince me to sign him to that contract. I would rather go after a guy like Okposo or someone similar if they are available. My argument is, just because we lack in a certain area, shouldn't mean we should over pay for a guy who doesn't really belong in the top-6. Who knows, he might be a 20 goal scorer without the Euro Twins and prove me dead wrong, we shall see.

Thats all well and good but the Okposos dont get in that type of position very often. And when they do your gonna pay an arm and a leg to compete with the other GM's for him. You either sign Abby to a few extra years or risk losing him and then like Eternal Sunshine said imagine this team without him. You think we look over powered some nights, the playoffs would be a dream without him. Had he hit the market, no way he signs for less somewhere else. Not a chance.
 

Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
13,819
1,751
In the Garage
Why "replacement"? Are we not allowed to have more than one fast player? Last I heard we had 12 forward positions. ..

The problem is we've seen it over and over again: a team filled with overpriced guys who cannot live up to their contracts, are signed for far too long, who create a log jam and thereby keep young, cheap guys from filling out the roster.

  • Could have easily traded Abby for a first rounder and replaced him with Sheahan.
  • Could have easily traded Helm for a second rounder and replaced him with Athanasiou.
  • Could have easily traded Smith for a 3rd or 4th rounder and replaced him with a rando scrub from Grand Rapids.

If we are fully committed to rebuild on the fly it's imperative we stop handing out ****** contracts to the likes of Sammy, Bert, Cleary, Abby, Mule and Helm next. We don't need to be the final landing spot for nearly every single guy who wears the Winged Wheel. We haven't drafted and developed a #1 d-man in over 20 years. We need as many draft picks as possible while moving on from old guys past their prime and prospects who never develop beyond competing for the #6-7 spot.
 

TheOtherOne

Registered User
Jan 2, 2010
8,265
5,257
[*]Could have easily traded Abby for a first rounder and replaced him with Sheahan.
[*]Could have easily traded Helm for a second rounder and replaced him with Athanasiou.

Er... don't look now but both of those guys are already on the roster. You're going to need someone else to be "replacements", unless you plan to clone those guys.

Anyway Sheahan's 16 points and -13 aren't exactly what I'd call an Abdelkader replacement in the first place.
 

FireBird71

Registered User
Aug 6, 2015
3,110
1,207
You and most of the forum I think. Even if I like what Abby has developed into, we're paying him for way too long and it kills our flexibility.

Paying Kronwall and Big E what they make is what's killing the flexibility
 

Kyleftlx

twitter*****/kyle_ftl
May 9, 2010
1,231
36
Michigan!
Would you rather have Dylan Larkin right now or Tyler Myers? Because those are the types of deals you're talking about here. How about Dion Phaneuf instead of Anthony Mantha? Nobody would be ok with Jay Bouwmeester now instead of Tatar and/or Nyquist, either. Holland has stated repeatedly every offseason that the plan is to be paitent and build through the draft because the players they need are hardly ever available anymore. There's no sense in selling the farm to take a run when this team's window closed many years ago.

What about just a deal like NYI trading a couple of prospects for Nick Leddy? Then trading a couple of seconds for Boychuk... Those two trades together made an immense impact in pushing NYI forward. And both of those trades are helping them long term as well. That offseason, Detroit signed Quincey and at the deadline used similar draft picks to bring in two rentals. It doesn't have to be a huuuuge blockbuster deal, but it would be nice to see Kenny roll the dice and bring in an impact player. I don't believe that you have to trade away a Larkin or a Mantha type of prospect to acquire a guy that can help your team compete, and when you have so much excess of near NHL ready prospects, it makes so much more sense to find a trading partner for some of them.

A final note: the "window" closed a while ago, but yet Holland signs guys like Green + Richards, Alfredsson + Weiss... The team was up against the cap for a couple of years. I don't know how you go up against the cap if you aren't trying to win a Stanley cup.
 

TCNorthstars

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
4,281
1,796
Lansing area, MI
What about just a deal like NYI trading a couple of prospects for Nick Leddy? Then trading a couple of seconds for Boychuk... Those two trades together made an immense impact in pushing NYI forward. And both of those trades are helping them long term as well. That offseason, Detroit signed Quincey and at the deadline used similar draft picks to bring in two rentals. It doesn't have to be a huuuuge blockbuster deal, but it would be nice to see Kenny roll the dice and bring in an impact player. I don't believe that you have to trade away a Larkin or a Mantha type of prospect to acquire a guy that can help your team compete, and when you have so much excess of near NHL ready prospects, it makes so much more sense to find a trading partner for some of them.

A final note: the "window" closed a while ago, but yet Holland signs guys like Green + Richards, Alfredsson + Weiss... The team was up against the cap for a couple of years. I don't know how you go up against the cap if you aren't trying to win a Stanley cup.

Maybe because they ARE trying to win the Stanley Cup.
 
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