Any Doubt who the GOAT is?

[Crossfire Hurricane]

Wow, an entire 4-page thread about how Brady is GOAT without a single (apparent) mention of either Jim Brown or Jerry Rice. A buncha real historians here.

Because it isn't a contest. You either accept his accomplishment and neither come close, or you make excuses and he doesn't come close to GOAT.

 

[Fantomas]

I love adjusted stats, which I follow closely for different sports, and the quarterback who tends to get most ignored in the GOAT debates is Steve Young. He has the best peak adjusted stats of any quarterback in an otherwise injury-marred career.

Compare his AV (approximate value) and Rate+ to any quarterback in league history and he destroys: Steve Young Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Better than Manning too. Just one ring though.

Save for the amazing 2007, Brady is more of a compiler. But as an overall package he is probably the best quarterback.

 

[Fantomas]

Because it isn't a contest. You either accept his accomplishment and neither come close, or you make excuses and he doesn't come close to GOAT.

lol what

 

[Fantomas]

Steve Young replaced (Montana) and the 49ers didnt miss a beat.

They did miss a beat. Young was great, but laid three eggs in a row against the Cowboys (albeit winning the third).

 

[Fossy21]

Strange, I didn't mention the 2018 Super Bowl.

My point is, he’ll never get any credit for that game out of 95% of NFL fans because he lost (hell, he didn’t win against Atlanta or Seattle, those teams just lost the games).

 

[Fossy21]

I love adjusted stats, which I follow closely for different sports, and the quarterback who tends to get most ignored in the GOAT debates is Steve Young. He has the best peak adjusted stats of any quarterback in an otherwise injury-marred career.

Compare his AV (approximate value) and Rate+ to any quarterback in league history and he destroys: Steve Young Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Better than Manning too. Just one ring though.

Save for the amazing 2007, Brady is more of a compiler. But as an overall package he is probably the best quarterback.

Outside of Bruins fans and Don Cherry, Bobby Orr gets ignored in the GOAT debates as well. Orr played 43.5% as many games as Gretzky. After becoming the starter of the 49ers, Young started 43.1% as many games as Brady has, and counting (down).

As for compiling, Brady has three MVPs to Manning’s five. The difference is Brady is typically in the top 3 or at least top 5 (and could’ve won it in 2016 and maybe ”even” 2015 if he was judged as Manning was in 2003, 2008 and 2009). If consistently being in the top 5 of NFL players and usually top 3 is compiling, I’ll take that.

What also gets ignored is that like Aaron Rodgers he doesn’t compile stats playing in domes and warm weather 80% of the time like Manning and Brees (or even Young), with the added bonus of Manning playing in the actually third worst division in the league (behind NFC West and North) for the majority of his career, while Brees has played consistently bad pass defences in his division, though that could be explained by domes propping up passing stats for opposing QB’s as well as their own.

And as for the older generations of guys, even if those aspects concern the GM more than it does the QB, being able to win consistently with free agency, salary caps, consistently low draft picks (and sometimes getting docked draft picks for what other players and coaches are on record as saying is ”nothing”) and tougher schedules than any other team still falls a lot on the QB. As BB said, it’s all about the players performing at the end of the day.

 

[Fantomas]

Outside of Bruins fans and Don Cherry, Bobby Orr gets ignored in the GOAT debates as well.

As for compiling, Brady has three MVPs to Manning’s five. The difference is Brady is typically in the top 3 or at least top 5 (and could’ve won it in 2016 and maybe ”even” 2015 if he was judged as Manning was in 2003, 2008 and 2009). If consistently being in the top 5 of NFL players and usually top 3 is compiling, I’ll take that.

I don't know if Brady is a consistent top 5 player. I doubt anyone in the NFL is consistently top 5 because it is a very tough sport to dominate. It also depends on the metric one uses.

Manning's regular season numbers are probably better than Brady's (7 all pros to 3). But he was crap in the postseason, no way of sugarcoating that.

 

[Fossy21]

I don't know if Brady is consistently top 5. I doubt anyone in the NFL is consistently top 5 because it is a very tough sport in which to be consistent. It also depends on the metric one uses.

Manning's regular season numbers are probably better than Brady's. But he was crap in the postseason, no way of sugarcoating that.

In retrospect, Manning’s 2004 season is probably statistically more impressive than Brady’s 2007 season, and definitely more than his 2013 season, even if he did have two overlapping HOF WR’s that year (and every year between 2001 and 2008). But he had a worse season than McNair in 2003, Rivers (and several others) in 2008 and robbed Brees in 2009.

His overall regular season numbers are on par with Brady’s, if that, and that comes with a lot of mitigating factors (including those mentioned above). He was actually very good statistically in AFC championship games, but horrid in Super Bowls (in his two winning SB’s, he had significantly worse stats than Brady had in his three losing ones, and of course even worse when you compare his losing ones to Brady’s winning). His one-and-dones kill him. But then again, Montana had a lot of one-and-dones (not to mention missed playoff appearances altogether).

On another note, how do you insert Rice into the discussion in the manner of your first post after which you criticise the concept of a compiler? Is Rice even the best WR in your eyes, when several others have had bigger ups (if not in the playoffs) with much worse QB’s in shorter career?

 

[Fantomas]

In retrospect, Manning’s 2004 season is probably statistically more impressive than Brady’s 2007 season, and definitely more than his 2013 season, even if he did have two overlapping HOF WR’s that year (and every year between 2001 and 2008). But he had a worse season than McNair in 2003, Rivers (and several others) in 2008 and robbed Brees in 2009.

His overall regular season numbers are on par with Brady’s, if that, and that comes with a lot of mitigating factors (including those mentioned above). He was actually very good statistically in AFC championship games, but horrid in Super Bowls (in his two winning SB’s, he had significantly worse stats than Brady had in his three losing ones, and of course even worse when you compare his losing ones to Brady’s winning). His one-and-dones kill him. But then again, Montana had a lot of one-and-dones (not to mention missed playoff appearances altogether).

The only egregious missed playoff appearance for Montana is 1982 and he actually played well that year. Otherwise he can't be faulted for missing the playoffs in seasons he wasn't the starting quarterback, with a subpar but developing team ('79, '80).

On another note, how do you insert Rice into the discussion in the manner of your first post after which you criticise the concept of a compiler? Is Rice even the best WR in your eyes, when several others have had bigger ups (if not in the playoffs) with much worse QB’s in shorter career?

I called Brady a compiler, but also said that he is probably the best quarterback. So it's not meant as an insult. He has put together many very good seasons and outstanding playoff performances.

I just don't think he is the best quarterback in terms of peak/prime ability (that would be perhaps Young). And is far from the best footballer of all time in that sense.

There is still an argument for him as GOAT due to his overall body of work, but people who claim he's easily #1 don't have a leg to stand on. It's not a coincidence that people who see Brady as the Michael Jordan of the NFL also have so little perspective on NFL history.

 

[JaymzB]

On another note, how do you insert Rice into the discussion in the manner of your first post after which you criticise the concept of a compiler? Is Rice even the best WR in your eyes, when several others have had bigger ups (if not in the playoffs) with much worse QB’s in shorter career?

I'm curious, what other receivers are in the conversation as greatest of all-time? IMO Rice as the greatest WR is the easiest choice out of any all-time positional debate.

 

[Voight]

So you think Belichik’s success is only because of Brady and he never would have won anything without him?

I think it works both ways. They need eachother. Hard to say if another QB would have done so well with the cast offs Brady was given yet hard to say if Brady would have succeeded if Belichik had stayed with the Jets. May have rode the bench for much longer under someone else.

If the Pats had Kirk Cousins or Derek Carr, BB still could have guided the Pats to a title this year

Neither of them would have made it past KC.

They did miss a beat. Young was great, but laid three eggs in a row against the Cowboys (albeit winning the third).

Still won a title without Montana.

 

[Fossy21]

I'm curious, what other receivers are in the conversation as greatest of all-time? IMO Rice as the greatest WR is the easiest choice out of any all-time positional debate.

Peak Moss > Peak Rice. Look at his 2007 season what he achieved with Brady. Imagine if he was at his 1998-2003 level with that level of QB play and all around team around him (no disrespect to Cunningham or Culpepper).

Talent-wise, it’s probably not even a discussion. So if there’s any question whether Brady is the GOAT QB, then there’s a debate for WR.

If Moss had that drive, that longevity and a dynasty team around him, the GOAT debate would be more lopsided in his favour than it currently is in Rice’s favour (which I agree with, because those things have to be taken into account as well). Megatron and T.O. are close by those criteria as well. Larry maybe an honourable mention (but that guy is just so lovable it might rub off and make one biased).

 

[DangleCity]

I love adjusted stats, which I follow closely for different sports, and the quarterback who tends to get most ignored in the GOAT debates is Steve Young. He has the best peak adjusted stats of any quarterback in an otherwise injury-marred career.

Compare his AV (approximate value) and Rate+ to any quarterback in league history and he destroys: Steve Young Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Better than Manning too. Just one ring though.

Save for the amazing 2007, Brady is more of a compiler. But as an overall package he is probably the best quarterback.

Young played half his career before there was FA and far less parity in the league. What Brady and the Patriots are doing in this era of football carrys more weight for me

 

[CDJ]

Tom Brady is the GOAT. There is no debate. If you are trying to debate....that’s cool. You’re just wasting your time and we only have a very finite amount of that on this planet. Take up meditation or knitting instead

 

[Fantomas]

Tom Brady is the GOAT. There is no debate.

Compelling.

 

[Roboturner913]

Jerry Rice is not the goat because he's a WR. Before Brady came along, I could maybe go for an argument for Walter Payton or Jim Brown as opposed to Montana, but the stresses and importance of the QB position are insane. It's the most important position in sports AFAIK.

 

[CDJ]

Compelling.

Factual. Why take all this time typing about how it’s arguable when you could do something productive? Could be finding your center or working on some sweet mittens

 

[Fantomas]

Factual. Why take all this time typing about how it’s arguable when you could do something productive? Could be finding your center or working on some sweet mittens

I would tell you take up knitting but I doubt you have the brain power for it.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Peak Moss > Peak Rice. Look at his 2007 season what he achieved with Brady. Imagine if he was at his 1998-2003 level with that level of QB play and all around team around him (no disrespect to Cunningham or Culpepper).

Talent-wise, it’s probably not even a discussion. So if there’s any question whether Brady is the GOAT QB, then there’s a debate for WR.

If Moss had that drive, that longevity and a dynasty team around him, the GOAT debate would be more lopsided in his favour than it currently is in Rice’s favour (which I agree with, because those things have to be taken into account as well). Megatron and T.O. are close by those criteria as well. Larry maybe an honourable mention (but that guy is just so lovable it might rub off and make one biased).

Moss and Megatron are the two most dominating WR's of all-time imo.

 

[Asheville]

Jerry Rice is the GOAT

 

[Big Phil]

Yeah, Brady is the best of all-time. Sorry, I hate saying "GOAT". 10 years ago you would hear me fighting about how Manning has had a better career but things have changed since then. The argument against Brady over Montana let's say is that people would say "Come back to me when Brady has 4 rings." Now he has 6. He has played in the Super Bowl in half of the seasons he has been in the league. Think about that. Football is not built for that sort of long term success, it never has been. When will we see a QB play in 9 Super Bowls? We never will in our lifetime. I am pretty confident that this will never happen.

Find me Brady's weakness in his career. He won three championships in his early years where he was important but a bit more blended in with the rest of the team and he won three when he was more the central point of the team. 30 playoff wins, when 16 was the previous and once impossible to beat record.

Ask yourself this, is there a player in NFL history that you want with the ball in his hands driving 80 yards down the field for the game winning touchdown? Who has been more of a clutch QB in history? I wouldn't pick anyone else.

 

[GordonGecko]

Ask yourself this, is there a player in NFL history that you want with the ball in his hands driving 80 yards down the field for the game winning touchdown? Who has been more of a clutch QB in history? I wouldn't pick anyone else.

I feel like the Brady haters are piling on against him right now because they are only looking at 2018 play. He's on the decline right now, but the guy is 41 and that alone should put him in GOAT discussions having just won a super bowl. If you look back at his prime years the guy carried the team for years and absolutely there was nobody better with the 4th quarter winning drive to end the game and the thread the needle passes to any and all scrubs not needing an elite wide receiver

 

[CTHabsfan]

If Super Bowl wins makes Brady the "GOAT", does that make Yogi Berra, Henri Richard and Bill Russell the "GOAT" of their respective sports, or is it possible that all of the above had some help?

 

[Hoverhand]

Neither of them would have made it past KC

Kirk Cousins and Derek Carr werent good enough to replicate his 1 TD 2 INT performance?
Or in this alternate universe would Dee Ford line up 6 inches backwards?

 

[DangleCity]

If Super Bowl wins makes Brady the "GOAT", does that make Yogi Berra, Henri Richard and Bill Russell the "GOAT" of their respective sports, or is it possible that all of the above had some help?

Its the entire package that make him the GOAT. Also you cant compare across sports. Winning the SB in this era is way more difficult than what Russell or Richard did in 6 teams leagues without free agency.