Another Lockout

[Machinehead]

Most contract employees dont have guaranteed contracts though. Nearly every contract for contract employees have clauses that say the employer can terminate contract at any point, no explanation required.

I have worked for the last 10 years under contracts, and there is absolutely zero job security. You dont pull your weight, youre gone. They dont have enough work, then someone is gone. No severance pay, no nothing.

If we are going to compare these things to the situations "regular people" experience, we cant pick and choose which parts.

That's all a bunch of garbage. Nobody should work under conditions where they can be terminated without explanation.

 

[joe dirte]

That's all a bunch of garbage. Nobody should work under conditions where they can be terminated without explanation.

Excuse me? Thats not garbage, thats what being a contract employee normally entails.

Escrow is a part of the CBA that protects the revenue arrangements for the teams. Guaranteed contracts is a part if the CBA that protects players.

Why shouldnt teams be able to stipulate in a contract that the contract can be terminated if the expectations of the contract arent being met? If i sign a contract to do a job and im not doing it very well, i absolutely should have that contract terminated.

Its ludicrous to think that someone offering a contract to someone theyre hiring is SOL if that person isnt adequately fulfilling that contract.

 

[Machinehead]

Excuse me? Thats not garbage, thats what being a contract employee normally entails.

Escrow is a part of the CBA that protects the revenue arrangements for the teams. Guaranteed contracts is a part if the CBA that protects players.

Why shouldnt teams be able to stipulate in a contract that the contract can be terminated if the expectations of the contract arent being met? If i sign a contract to do a job and im not doing it very well, i absolutely should have that contract terminated.

Its ludicrous to think that someone offering a contract to someone theyre hiring is SOL if that person isnt adequately fulfilling that contract.

You just moved the goalposts the length of the field on this one.

Who said anything about not fulfilling the contract? There's outstanding workers who have zero job security.

 

[joe dirte]

You just moved the goalposts the length of the field on this one.

Who said anything about not fulfilling the contract? There's outstanding workers who have zero job security.

And you think if connor mcdavid were to chill out next year and decide "screw it, its not worth the effort, im gonna laze my way to a 40 point season" thats fulfilling his contract?

Again, if players arent meeting the expectations that come with their contracts, why shouldnt they be terminated? Anywhere else, theyre just fired. And rightfully so.

 

[Machinehead]

And you think if connor mcdavid were to chill out next year and decide "screw it, its not worth the effort, im gonna laze my way to a 40 point season" thats fulfilling his contract?

Again, if players arent meeting the expectations that come with their contracts, why shouldnt they be terminated?

Now we've gone into bizarre hypotheticals.

 

[joe dirte]

Now we've gone into bizarre hypotheticals.

Not really.

There are all kinds of players outbthere not living up to their contracts. Theyre paid to be top line players, but arent fulfilling that. Why cant their contract be terminated?

 

[Saltcreek]

Not at all. At least not today anyway.

I'm arguing that you agree to a wage, and the players get that wage. There shouldn't be a system that allows the owners to dock pay because they're entitled to a minimum return on investment. They made the investment.

If a regular person invests money and doesn't like the return, it's tough noogies.

How do you have a salary cap system with no escrow? Also, if players use the escalator, how do you account for the increase in the cap when the league fails to meet the revenue projection? How else to you ensure that the HRR is split as agreed to by the league and the players?

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

I totally believe there will be another lockout, hopefully for a short time and not like in 2004-05.

 

[joe dirte]

How do you have a salary cap system with no escrow? Also, if players use the escalator, how do you account for the increase in the cap when the league fails to meet the revenue projection? How else to you ensure that the HRR is split as agreed to by the league and the players?

The "wage" theyve agreed to includes amounts set aside for escrow anyway. The wage, AND escrow payments, are agreed to, in exactly the same contract. So tgere really is no "they should get the wage they agreed to" argument, because the wage theyve agreed to is "x dollars less escrow". They havent agreed to "x dollars", and escrow is just taken off arbitrarily. The agreed wage is "x dollars less escrow".

The players agreed to pay into escrow. Tough noogies.

 

[Saltcreek]

The "wage" theyve agreed to includes amounts set aside for escrow anyway. The wage, AND escrow payments, are agreed to, in exactly the same contract. So tgere really is no "they should get the wage they agreed to" argument, because the wage theyve agreed to is "x dollars less escrow". They havent agreed to "x dollars", and escrow is just taken off arbitrarily. The agreed wage is "x dollars less escrow".

The players agreed to pay into escrow. Tough noogies.

I know this but apparently Machinehead does not. If he can think of a better system then lets hear it but the owners are not arbitrary taking money back from the players as he seems to believe.

 

[Machinehead]

Not really.

There are all kinds of players outbthere not living up to their contracts. Theyre paid to be top line players, but arent fulfilling that. Why cant their contract be terminated?

I don't know how we've gone from earning what you're contractually entitled to to termination.

 

[Machinehead]

How do you have a salary cap system with no escrow? Also, if players use the escalator, how do you account for the increase in the cap when the league fails to meet the revenue projection? How else to you ensure that the HRR is split as agreed to by the league and the players?

The players should get a minimum cut of revenue. If they get a little more than that, oh well.

 

[joe dirte]

I don't know how we've gone from earning what you're contractually entitled to to termination.

Escrow is something that protects teams, that is not normally found in contracts (which you pointed to when you started this with your "if they dont make a profit, tough noogies comment) There are things that protect players in the CBA too, not found in normal course of business. Like guaranteed contracts.

If you want to remove these protections, so be it. But claiming the protections for the owners are the only thing that should be scrapped, without scrapping players protections, is a very one sided view of things.

 

[joe dirte]

The players should get a minimum cut of revenue. If they get a little more than that, oh well.

They do get a minumum cut of revenue. There is a minimum set out in the cba as well as a maximum. And they DO get more than the minimum!!!

 

[Machinehead]

Escrow is something that protects teams, that is not normally found in contracts (which you pointed to when you started this with your "if they dont make a profit, tough noogies comment) There are things that protect players in the CBA too, not found in normal course of business. Like guaranteed contracts.

If you want to remove these protections, so be it. But claiming the protections for the owners are the only thing that should be scrapped, without scrapping players protections, is a very one sided view of things.

Yeah.

 

[Saltcreek]

I don't know how we've gone from earning what you're contractually entitled to to termination.

In any other business if you sign a contract and then do not perform to the metrics set out (this includes contracts awarded to businesses etc) in that contract then the contract can be terminated. Right now, the players enjoy a guaranteed contract and that is something that most working people/businesses do not get to have.

The players should get a minimum cut of revenue. If they get a little more than that, oh well.

What is this minimum cut of the HRR and how much is a little more? How would the escalator work with this? The only way this happen is if the players take a big cut on their current 50% which none of them will ever agree to.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

I expect it to happen but lots of us here have already been through 2 or 3 so it's almost routine. It's not ideal but it's part of being a fan of this league, it's fine I guess.

 

[Saltcreek]

They do get a minumum cut of revenue. There is a minimum set out in the cba as well as a maximum. And they DO get more than the minimum!!!

The funny thing is earlier in the thread he was complaining that the owners got too much HRR at 43%!

 

[Machinehead]

In any other business if you sign a contract and then do not perform to the metrics set out (this includes contracts awarded to businesses etc) in that contract then the contract can be terminated. Right now, the players enjoy a guaranteed contract and that is something that most working people/businesses do not get to have.



What is this minimum cut of the HRR and how much is a little more? How would the escalator work with this? The only way this happen is if the players take a big cut on their current 50% which none of them will ever agree to.

Every worker should have job security. Every. Worker.

And that doesn't mean they can't fire you for f***ing off. That's a complete strawman.

 

[Machinehead]

The funny thing is earlier in the thread he was complaining that the owners got too much HRR at 43%!

That is too much.

They do f***ing none of the labor.

 

[joe dirte]

The funny thing is earlier in the thread he was complaining that the owners got too much HRR at 43%!

I would also point out, it certainly is not normal that contract employees get a minimum % of revenue.

Every other business, if they pay their employees according to the contracts theyve arranged, and they make a huge profit, contract employees dont get more of that money. Why would employees get more of that? They didnt invest. Tough noogies!

 

[joe dirte]

Every worker should have job security. Every. Worker.

And that doesn't mean they can't fire you for ****ing off. That's a complete strawman.

Out of curiousity, how old are you?

 

[Machinehead]

I would also point out, it certainly is not normal that contract employees get a minimum % of revenue.

Every other business, if they pay their employees according to the contracts theyve arranged, and they make a huge profit, contract employees dont get more of that money. Why would employees get more of that? They didnt invest. Tough noogies!

They did invest. They invested time, work, risk in many cases.

I like how we keep bringing up other models as if the NHL should strive for that. The other models were worse examples of every issue I have.

 

[Machinehead]

Out of curiousity, how old are you?

None of your business. I'm not taking this down that road.

 

[joe dirte]

None of your business. I'm not taking this down that road.

Okay. Well you strike me as someone rather inexperienced with the working world.

And im guessing youve got some parents that are unionized workers too.

You seem very naive about the working world, and especially how the different types of employment work.

Contract employment is nothing like being a permanent employee, but you seem to be trying to afford the pros of being a perm employee to an employment model that doesnt work the same way.

Quite simply, youre speaking well beyond the limits of your knowledge and experience.