And Then Everyone Dared Disturb the Sound of Silence (CBA & Lockout) XXIII ‎

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I think this is the best way to explain the leverage situation right now.

Players need the NHL to continue living the lifestyle that they have been living as no other league will provide them with the salaries and benefits that the NHL offers.

Owners need players to make money from hockey; However, they do NOT need players to make money from all of the other businesses they are involved in.

The reality is that the NHL holds all the leverage and they have no problem digging in and canceling the season to eventually get to a point where they feel the CBA is fair.

I think you're making yourself look a little silly insinuating the Owners want to cancel a season just to get everything they want in these negotiations. Sure, they have leverage (everyone knows this) but I just don't think they're dumb enough to think they could lock the league whenever they please and continue to rake in record revenues. It's in both parties best interest to get a season going, unfortunately it's also important for the Owners to get their "fair" share of cost certainty and it's also important to the players that Owners honour existing contracts. It's not black and white.

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

disappointing, but completely unsurprising that the union is still insisting on de-linkage.

 

[JR303]

Economic loss today? It's been expanded on a few times. The players will lose money this group cannot expect to recoup. It's a straight out pay cut, coupled to a shortened or absent season. (Opportunity cost of sorts.)

I believe they're digging in to avoid always being in a position -- as a group -- of having the rate ratcheted downwards. Individually, the restrictions on the contractual rights are obviously of a high but intangible value to an outside observer. To a player, it means the loss of opportunity to go UFA a season or two earlier (which can mean millions to him); or the ELC restrictions, and even in the cases of the 5% season to season variance and limit on contract term. They cannot get big upfront payments, plus the risk is transferred back to them if the term is limited.

As a group, they'll still get 50% of the total, but individually, this sets up each guy to getting their fair share of the player pie.

I know what it means definitively, I just didn't understand which way you were implying. I think that's all true, but I think that it's a bit disengenuous to say that this was not beyond their control, or that they're the only ones losing in all of this. They could have been proactive and aggressive with their proposals and still had ample time to not miss a day of the season. They also could have used the framework of the last cba, but apparently refuse to.

I know you're going to say "why should they", but I'd say given that the last one produced not only record revenues, but incredibly record salaries, that it's a system that works to an extent. I believe that it needs some number juggling, and that it needs to be a shared responsibility, but the fact that the league is trying to become stable, based upon what they can see is the future of contracts, should be a positive for most all NHL fans.

I get the players' stance, and it's insulting to them to be asked to take a reduced share, especially when some of the owners' hypocrisy seems to be so flagrantly thrown about, but I feel that the things the owners are asking for will make the league stronger as a whole, and while it'll hurt, it will be better in the long run.

 

[the_fan]

I think all this long hour meetings lately and stuff is just publicity stunt to keep media and fans at ease that supposedly they are getting close to a deal.

The NHL and NHLPA are getting so much pressure from the fans and media that they needed to do something to misinform, like they are really working on a new CBA.

 

[NickyMaz]

I think all this long hour meetings lately and stuff is just publicity stunt to keep media and fans at ease that supposedly they are getting close to a deal.

The NHL and NHLPA are getting so much pressure from the fans and media that they needed to do something to misinform, like they are really working on a new CBA.

Really? They're all just sitting in a conference room for hours and hours as a stunt? I find that really hard to believe.

 

[The Magic Man]

I agree with the owners stance of needing a 50/50 split, but nothing should be given with out something in return. I agree with the players that they should ween themselves into this in some way. But I think the best deal for the players is to be made now. If this shuts down, it won't be any easier before the start of next season. I think right now is the point at which the players will get the most from the owners until this time next year.

Until then, between potential break downs and the next weak point for the owners, the players will only receive worse offers from the owners. Get it done this week, or wait until next Nov.

 

[the_fan]

Really? They're all just sitting in a conference room for hours and hours as a stunt? I find that really hard to believe.

Hours of meetings is probably better than getting bombarded 24/7 by media and the fans and all the people who want NHL back.

They'll do this for a while until things calm down a little like they are getting close to a deal, and before we know it the whole season is canceled. At least then they can say we really tried.

 

[Whakahere]

20 hours of meeting and still struggling to talk the same language. who do you know can talk for 20 hours and get nothing done. sounds to me as though they brought a playstation and just pissing away time. god damn it I expect this from politicians.

I can't be assed wasting time on this. call me when hockey is back on.

 

[Wretched Oil]

Perhaps you feel this way, but the majority of the public disagrees with you.

Fans buy billions of dollars of tickets & merchandise and pay enough attention for sponsors & advertisers to chip in more.

You can't back that first sentence up.

The second point means nothing if the NHL is no more, that money would go the the next league on the depth chart.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think you're making yourself look a little silly insinuating the Owners want to cancel a season just to get everything they want in these negotiations. Sure, they have leverage (everyone knows this) but I just don't think they're dumb enough to think they could lock the league whenever they please and continue to rake in record revenues. It's in both parties best interest to get a season going, unfortunately it's also important for the Owners to get their "fair" share of cost certainty and it's also important to the players that Owners honour existing contracts. It's not black and white.

I agree.

It's helpful to look at the list of proposals described in Fehr's last memo and ask ourselves, "is either side willing to walk away over this?".

Take the arbitration proposal. It's kind of silly for the league to demand more arbitration rights at the same time they're demanding a salary rollback. It's not even a fair request, if you think about what else the players are giving up here. So why ask for it? Simply, it's something they can exchange for a better offer on other parts of the deal... or that the PA can accept if they want to extract concessions elsewhere. So it's not really a "demand" at all, but a mechanism to influence the final outcome in other areas. You could almost scratch it off the list of lockout-worthy issues.

Keep going down the list in that manner, and it's obvious that the big sticking points here are contract term limits, UFA age, and how to get to 50/50. The rest are just poker chips to be exchanged. So the next question is: how much is each side willing to budge on these issues before they walk away? And how much is that budge worth to the other side?

When you think about it that way, the sides aren't THAT far apart. For example, I could see the league agreeing to leave all the other rights issues alone in exchange for 8-year contract limits and their version of 50/50. I could see the PA giving the league limited arbitration rights and 27yo UFA age in exchange for a compromise on 50/50. And so forth.

Now that we're this close, breaking off and continuing the lockout simply makes no sense. Both sides have a lot of pressure behind them and nothing to gain from deadlock.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Ya think any NHLPA members will appreciate these facts?

In my eyes, PA members aren't 3 times as valuable as KHL players.

Meaning...???

 

[tarheelhockey]

Meaning...???

Meaning the KHL is due for a lockout

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

So, what is the exact consensus for today? I see people optimistic along with people being pessimistic.

 

[Crows*]

Just read the fehr memo for the first time. To be honest I feel better about this after reading it. It's not angry or scathing. To me it seems like " this is what they offered.. I think we can do better... Lots of work to be done"

Things are slowly.... On the right track

 

[Bruins71*]

Just out of curiosity, has the KHL ever had a lockout? In fact, do European leagues experience lockouts often/ever? This isn't a facetious question, I generally have no idea if lockouts happen in Euro leagues (of any sport).

 

[Fugu]

I know what it means definitively, I just didn't understand which way you were implying. I think that's all true, but I think that it's a bit disengenuous to say that this was not beyond their control, or that they're the only ones losing in all of this. They could have been proactive and aggressive with their proposals and still had ample time to not miss a day of the season. They also could have used the framework of the last cba, but apparently refuse to.

There's nothing disingenuous about it whatsoever.

You're present a bunch of wouldda/couldda/shouldda and putting the onus on one side, ignoring that the NHL has some serious cutbacks on all fronts in their proposals. One could easily do the same in describing the NHL's reactions to the PA proposals.

Who's being disingenuous?

I know you're going to say "why should they", but I'd say given that the last one produced not only record revenues, but incredibly record salaries, that it's a system that works to an extent. I believe that it needs some number juggling, and that it needs to be a shared responsibility, but the fact that the league is trying to become stable, based upon what they can see is the future of contracts, should be a positive for most all NHL fans.

I never say things like that. I usually add some basis for what I present as an option.

The system works--- to an extent, but the NHL wants to change it. The PA never wanted the system, but obviously (to me) have a right to say, "Hey, what exactly is broken?" They have admitted that some things need change. Where the two sides disagree is who pays for it. The PA has accepted that they need to do something to help the weakest of teams. Why should this result in a massive benefit to the richest teams?

I get the players' stance, and it's insulting to them to be asked to take a reduced share, especially when some of the owners' hypocrisy seems to be so flagrantly thrown about, but I feel that the things the owners are asking for will make the league stronger as a whole, and while it'll hurt, it will be better in the long run.

Did you feel the same way after the last lockout? I actually think their linkage system is far more hostile to the weakest teams than anyone cares to admit.

 

[Wretched Oil]

Meaning...???

I said that in regards to someone saying something to the effect of "NHL players make 3 times the money compared to the KHL"

 

[rocsfeather]

NHLPA doesn't want to go back to work because they feel entitled but around summer time they will change their tune when their cash flow runs low. Fehr taking forever to even begin these negotiations is a tremendous joke.

 

[Harry22]

I don't get the fuss about the memo either. We all knew there was lots of work to be done and all he does is state where the differences are.

 

[CN_paladin]

I don't get the fuss about the memo either. We all knew there was lots of work to be done and all he does is state where the differences are.

Has Fehr ever used the term "delinkage" or something similar in his memos to the players?

 

[vippe]

20 hours of meeting and still struggling to talk the same language. who do you know can talk for 20 hours and get nothing done. sounds to me as though they brought a playstation and just pissing away time. god damn it I expect this from politicians.

I can't be assed wasting time on this. call me when hockey is back on.

How many do you know discussing that amount of money? I'm sure it would take hella lot longer time to that than 1000$ for instance.

And for all we know, they could still get things done, not just the things Fehr addressed.

 

[PaPaDee]

Very curious how adamant the PA is on their delinkage piece. That alone could be a pretty big tell whether or not we'll get a deal soon.

 

[LeafOfBread]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Fehr brothers have arrived at law office. Large group meeting to begin soon - core issues to be discussed

Real stuff is starting.

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

Well, well. @BRichards_1991 has arrived as well at meeting. Welcome to the labor talks Brad!

 

[GoCanes2013]

I wish Forbes or someone would do a "update" on their view of how much Franchise values have diminished over the past 6 months (if at all) - putting the potential impact in business terms would make the owners realize the time bomb they're playing with here.

Likewise, the players and their agents really need to just do the math. They've lost years, lost dollars, lost respect, lost effectively everything, and gained nothing other than more time off.

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

Time to buckle down. This is where it starts and maybe where it ends.